Rise of Minimum wage?

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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:11 am

thegreekdog wrote:
AAFitz wrote:When you raise the salary of those below you, you increase your salary as well. When you decrease it, unless you directly employ those people, you decrease your salary.


If this is the case then why aren't the evil rich people raising salaries?

Consumer goods increase for a variety of reasons, most of which don't have to do with (or, more accurately, won't be affected by) minimum wage laws.

If I want to make more money there are a number of ways to achieve my goal. Way down on that list is getting the minimum wage to be increased; even when I was making close to minimum wage, my solution was to work more hours or get a different job. A better education could also get me a higher salary. Joining a union could get me a higher salary. Taking a risk may also allow me to make more money.

AAFitz wrote:I certainly hate the abuse by unions, because it undermines the economy too, however, without them, most of us would not be in the position we are in today. It was the programs that seemingly successful people benefited from, that ironically allows them to have the time to bitch about now.


I don't think the unions are abusing anything. I think union leaders are taking advantage, certainly, but I have no problem with unions or union members attempting to get better benefits for members. I'm serious when I say that. My problem with the Indiana and New Jersey situations is that there was a direct correlation between tax dollars and unions and these were merely renegotiations. I was fine with the unions' positions. I was fine with the states' positions. Anyway, that's not the point.

AAFitz wrote:too much money was fleeced out of the economy in a variety of ways, both legal, and illegal, and the economy is suffering massively. The fleeced money is simply taken out of the economy, and in many cases, on foreign soil helping no one.


That doesn't seem very accurate to me. I'll let BBS do the yelling though.

AAFitz wrote:And those who are even doing well, in say 300000 a year jobs, assume they are above being hurt by this, because they are employed by those corporations, but as the bottom erodes, so do the levels above. Its why we have massive unemployment. Its why we have deficits, and why the economy is not what it was. An economy is just money moving back and forth between people and people doing work for each other. When you take it out of the economy, it stops, which is exactly what happened. Sure, not every bit of it gets taken out, but quite a bit of it did, and we are in the position we are in now, and the effects are cascading up the ladder more and more everyday.


I'm not sure about this either. Way more intelligent people than me, from both sides of the aisle and unaffiliated, would say that the 2008 recession occurred for a variety of reasons, none of which had to do with salaries or wages of the lower or lower-middle class. It was a combination of the housing crisis brought on by stupid borrowers, predatory lenders, and government subsidies of both plus investment in "fake" equity (or whatever we're calling it these days) that did the economy in.

And ultimately, you could make the minimum wage $500 an hour (I know you are not advocating this), but if the jobs aren't there... if there's no demand or qualified workers to fill demand... or if someone can make money not working... you're going to be in the same boat you're in now. And I'm willing to bet that if Bob McDonaldesmployee made $36 an hour instead of $9 an hour, when the recession hit, a whole lot more McDonald's employees would be hitting the streets. Plenty of people identifying wtih the upper middle class lost their jobs and they made well more than minimum wage.

And that last sentence is ultimately why I don't believe the hype. Lawyers, bankers, accountants, CEOs, CFOs, controllers, engineers... all those upper middle class and wealthy individuals... they all lost their jobs too. You know who really didn't lose their jobs? Government employees... teachers... union workers. The former group is not unionized, but makes a good salary and has good purchasing power. The latter group tends to be unionized or living off of other peoples' tax dollars.

Making more money does not insulate you from recessions. Making more money does not mean you've succeeded or reached a pinnacle. Is it better to make more money than less? Yes, but I just can't agree with your premise at all.


The individual quoting is just not worth it at this point, but

You called them evil rich people, not me....

Also as far as why arent they raising wages, the answer is simply supply and demand, in that they dont have to. Also, some very much do benefit from not raising wages, and those are the people at the very top, who dont return as much money into the economy, which creates the cycle I referred to.

Further, you say you dont agree with my premise, but above it you post my point.

" Lawyers, bankers, accountants, CEOs, CFOs, controllers, engineers... all those upper middle class and wealthy individuals... they all lost their jobs too. "


That is my point. My point is that as money was fleeced out of the economy, and now sits idle, at a slightly higher percent than it was, there was not enough to support those jobs.

In any case, I dont care if you agree with it, and I dont expect you to. It is just a theory after all, and a rambling one at that. However, overall, its based on the history of the economy, and while youve constructed a theory of your own, it is false, and has proven to be false, and is playing out to be so every day, and unfortunately will continue to do so, until, as with every situation, it is so bad, people finally act.

Human nature is simply to wait till bad things happen, and not act before. While I never expect anyone to say, oh you were right, just keep in the back of your mind in ten years...that...well, I am.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby CBlake on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:08 am

I Start this thread. I so popular.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:08 am

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise.


How do you know it has and how do you know it will?


I dont know the sun will come up tomorrow to be honest, it is an assumption, simply based on past.

Further, there are many variables, and some have risen, and some have fallen dramatically...however, overall, the cost goes up, and unless there is great change, it is unlikely, that trend would change.


In other words, "assuming that the average price of consumers goods has been rising and will always rise, ..."

Is that a correct summary?
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:09 am

CBlake wrote:I Start this thread. I so popular.

It brings so many posters to your milk shakes.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:11 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise.


How do you know it has and how do you know it will?


I dont know the sun will come up tomorrow to be honest, it is an assumption, simply based on past.

Further, there are many variables, and some have risen, and some have fallen dramatically...however, overall, the cost goes up, and unless there is great change, it is unlikely, that trend would change.


In other words, "assuming that the average price of consumers goods has been rising and will always rise, ..."

Is that a correct summary?


No.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:13 am

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise.


How do you know it has and how do you know it will?


I dont know the sun will come up tomorrow to be honest, it is an assumption, simply based on past.

Further, there are many variables, and some have risen, and some have fallen dramatically...however, overall, the cost goes up, and unless there is great change, it is unlikely, that trend would change.


In other words, "assuming that the average price of consumers goods has been rising and will always rise, ..."

Is that a correct summary?


No.


So how would you rephrase it?

(With economics, you have to be clear; otherwise, it's easy to make mistakes and create misunderstandings/forever changing positions--like PLAYER).
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:51 am

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Because why would you vote against yourself?


Because raising the minimum wage punishes those of us who have worked to educate ourselves and work in degree-dependent fields since we won't be seeing any pay increases from the increase in minimum wage. All it does is devalue the work we're currently doing while simultaneously raising our prices for everyday goods. Exact same thing goes for those people who have worked long enough to earn raises to be comfortably above minimum wage: their wages aren't going to increase just because minimum wage increased.

So that explains why its perfectly OK that millions of people can only survive by depending on government handouts?

Night Strike wrote:If people want to make more money, then they either need to work their way up or find a better place of employment. They don't get to run to the government and beg them to mandate pay increases.

People who work in the lowest wage jobs don't have those options.
Moving is expensive.. takes money. and if you leave one job, then other employers don't hire you, either. You become labeled as a "whiner".

For all your talk of fear about employees suing because they were let go, the bigger truth is that employers share data about employees.. in ways that are not necessarily even legal, but someone making only $8.00 an hour can't go out and hire a fancy attorney, despite your dreams otherwise. The people who DO sue are the higher wage employees.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:59 am

thegreekdog wrote:By the way. Juan, Player - you guys should probably look into this union thing. You could double your salaries!

LOL
Unions tried to come in to several of the local plants.. ALL of whom pay at least $9.00 an hour for their fulltime employees who are not secretaries (secretaries tend to make around $8.00 an hour). They failed. I can get into that in another thread, but the short of it is that when a plant is unionized, it "magically" winds up closing shortly after for various "unrelated' reasons.

HOWEVER, calling for unions misses the biggest point. For unions to work requires a unified, large force. Those making the lowest wages are hired in few numbers spread out all over. A few work for Dollar General, a few for McDonald's, a few for just about any organization you can name, even some union companies, just in jobs not covered by the union.

AND... none of that really answers the biggest point, which is, again, that the primary reason these people do work for such low wages, CAN work for such low wages is that they are being supported elsewhere..often supported by our tax dollars.

For people claiming to be against government support, you are awfully happy to have it when it supports YOUR interests! Demanding a livable wage is about NOT depending on government subsidies. It is about making businesses pay their fair due, instead of taking the cheap route on the pretense that they are somehow "helping society".. whilst really drawing government assistance in very big ways to fortify their big checks.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:51 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Because why would you vote against yourself?


Because raising the minimum wage punishes those of us who have worked to educate ourselves and work in degree-dependent fields since we won't be seeing any pay increases from the increase in minimum wage. All it does is devalue the work we're currently doing while simultaneously raising our prices for everyday goods. Exact same thing goes for those people who have worked long enough to earn raises to be comfortably above minimum wage: their wages aren't going to increase just because minimum wage increased.

So that explains why its perfectly OK that millions of people can only survive by depending on government handouts?


Get rid of the government handouts and either employers will start paying their low-wage workers more, or those workers will find new jobs.

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:If people want to make more money, then they either need to work their way up or find a better place of employment. They don't get to run to the government and beg them to mandate pay increases.

People who work in the lowest wage jobs don't have those options.
Moving is expensive.. takes money. and if you leave one job, then other employers don't hire you, either. You become labeled as a "whiner".


Moving around in this country has never been easier. Do you REALLY think it was easier to find a job elsewhere and move 20, 50, or 100 years ago? Today with the internet and basically everybody having cell phones, people can find jobs all over the country. So quit this whining BS about people not being able to move. If people have a desire to succeed, they will do the hard work and make the tough choices to make it happen. It just so happens that too many people today are too lazy and will make excuses that they deserve more than they're getting and will elect people who promise to hand them easy money. Quit making excuses for people and demanding that the government take care of them. Start promoting personal responsibility!
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:32 pm

Night Strike wrote:Moving around in this country has never been easier. Do you REALLY think it was easier to find a job elsewhere and move 20, 50, or 100 years ago? Today with the internet and basically everybody having cell phones, people can find jobs all over the country. So quit this whining BS about people not being able to move.

You are right that transportation around the country has improved over the last century. But moving can still have a large number of hurdles.


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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:40 pm

Night Strike wrote:Moving around in this country has never been easier. Do you REALLY think it was easier to find a job elsewhere and move 20, 50, or 100 years ago? Today with the internet and basically everybody having cell phones, people can find jobs all over the country. So quit this whining BS about people not being able to move. If people have a desire to succeed, they will do the hard work and make the tough choices to make it happen. It just so happens that too many people today are too lazy and will make excuses that they deserve more than they're getting and will elect people who promise to hand them easy money. Quit making excuses for people and demanding that the government take care of them. Start promoting personal responsibility!


Without a job, where do the initial funds to be able to afford to move and hopefully have a living situation lined up come from?

BMO
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:07 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Moving around in this country has never been easier. Do you REALLY think it was easier to find a job elsewhere and move 20, 50, or 100 years ago? Today with the internet and basically everybody having cell phones, people can find jobs all over the country. So quit this whining BS about people not being able to move. If people have a desire to succeed, they will do the hard work and make the tough choices to make it happen. It just so happens that too many people today are too lazy and will make excuses that they deserve more than they're getting and will elect people who promise to hand them easy money. Quit making excuses for people and demanding that the government take care of them. Start promoting personal responsibility!


Without a job, where do the initial funds to be able to afford to move and hopefully have a living situation lined up come from?

BMO


A small loan, living with a friend, new employer pays expenses, personal savings, future tax credits for moving. You all act like people who have little to no money have never moved around the country. If they could do it 50 years ago, why can't they do it today? People aren't just stuck where they are....they choose to be where they are.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:25 pm

I don't think it's necessarily laziness, then, as it is ignorance of resources. If you never know what's available to you, then you never know to look for or access it (such as future tax credits for moving).

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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:49 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Because why would you vote against yourself?


Because raising the minimum wage punishes those of us who have worked to educate ourselves and work in degree-dependent fields since we won't be seeing any pay increases from the increase in minimum wage. All it does is devalue the work we're currently doing while simultaneously raising our prices for everyday goods. Exact same thing goes for those people who have worked long enough to earn raises to be comfortably above minimum wage: their wages aren't going to increase just because minimum wage increased.

If people want to make more money, then they either need to work their way up or find a better place of employment. They don't get to run to the government and beg them to mandate pay increases.

That's a complete dupe statement.

If you are not a CEO or major stockholder, then paying minimum wage workers won't endanger your higher compensation in the least. OR, are you saying that your only sense of self-worth comes from deciding that you are not just quite a bit better off than others, but that you get to watch others actually struggling, while you do just fine?

The real fact is that the income of the top earners, the 1% has grown significantly.. beyond that, its the top of the top 1% that hold the majority, pay fewer taxes and yet claim we are supposed to keep supporting them so they can in their largess pass a bit more down to us. That is utter bull. Its the workers, not the owners that drive a company.

Skilled people are not at risk of having their wages slashed or even reduced to pay minimum wage increases. Rather, I am quite sure some jerk owners will make that claim, will even follow through.. and their business will wind up in the toilet as a result. As a result of their poor management and inability to actually do what workers need, not because of being forced to pay a bit more to the absolute bottom tier of the wage brackets.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:51 pm

Night Strike wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Moving around in this country has never been easier. Do you REALLY think it was easier to find a job elsewhere and move 20, 50, or 100 years ago? Today with the internet and basically everybody having cell phones, people can find jobs all over the country. So quit this whining BS about people not being able to move. If people have a desire to succeed, they will do the hard work and make the tough choices to make it happen. It just so happens that too many people today are too lazy and will make excuses that they deserve more than they're getting and will elect people who promise to hand them easy money. Quit making excuses for people and demanding that the government take care of them. Start promoting personal responsibility!


Without a job, where do the initial funds to be able to afford to move and hopefully have a living situation lined up come from?

BMO


A small loan, living with a friend, new employer pays expenses, personal savings, future tax credits for moving. You all act like people who have little to no money have never moved around the country. If they could do it 50 years ago, why can't they do it today? People aren't just stuck where they are....they choose to be where they are.

People who did it 50 years ago wound up in CA starving, literally.. and many did NOT make it.

You live in a dream world. You make it clear you have not truly had to do much real work yourself, yet you feel free to act as if everyone has had the easy road you have. It just is not so.
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