Rise of Minimum wage?

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Discussions Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:14 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:And as far as BBS' conclusions, obviously I disagree with all of them, everything he has said here. I'm a liberal, which to a lot of people is synonymous with anti-business, pro-labor. But you can be pro-labor and pro-business at the same time. I do believe in low corporate tax rates, and high income taxes on people. What I'm against is our system of organized greed.


You're a well-intended state socialist who rejects critical thinking and unfortunately supports poor outcomes. Only you can take the first step away from your echo chamber.

Making elaborate straw man fallacies still isn't doing you any favors.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3584
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:22 pm

Yeah, cause all those socialist country's are rolling over like the Titanic.
& everyone there is poor as f*ck and all their goods come from China.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Juan_Bottom
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:59 pm
Location: USA RULES! WHOOO!!!!
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (3)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:49 pm

With age, comes wisdom--hopefully.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3584
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:18 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:And as far as BBS' conclusions, obviously I disagree with all of them, everything he has said here. I'm a liberal, which to a lot of people is synonymous with anti-business, pro-labor. But you can be pro-labor and pro-business at the same time. I do believe in low corporate tax rates, and high income taxes on people. What I'm against is our system of organized greed.


You're a well-intended state socialist who rejects critical thinking and unfortunately supports poor outcomes. Only you can take the first step away from your echo chamber.

Making elaborate straw man fallacies still isn't doing you any favors.

Try your own.... you keep harping on your ideals. Fine... carry it out. What would happen if things went the way you wish. I don't mean esoteric, it would all work out. I mean specifics, perferably with historical proof that takes ALL people in a particular society into account.
Sergeant PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:48 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:And as far as BBS' conclusions, obviously I disagree with all of them, everything he has said here. I'm a liberal, which to a lot of people is synonymous with anti-business, pro-labor. But you can be pro-labor and pro-business at the same time. I do believe in low corporate tax rates, and high income taxes on people. What I'm against is our system of organized greed.


You're a well-intended state socialist who rejects critical thinking and unfortunately supports poor outcomes. Only you can take the first step away from your echo chamber.

Making elaborate straw man fallacies still isn't doing you any favors.

Try your own.... you keep harping on your ideals. Fine... carry it out. What would happen if things went the way you wish. I don't mean esoteric, it would all work out. I mean specifics, perferably with historical proof that takes ALL people in a particular society into account.


Here's a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wa ... al_studies
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3584
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:20 pm

I don't even think that you read that all the way through. That actually confirmed what Player is saying.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Juan_Bottom
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:59 pm
Location: USA RULES! WHOOO!!!!
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (3)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:33 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:I don't even think that you read that all the way through. That actually confirmed what Player is saying.

Until BBS goes in and edits it, perhaps.

But yeah... ALSO, that is just one blip. I said carry it out to full extent, and I don't mean JUST minimum wage, either.
Sergeant PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:47 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:I don't even think that you read that all the way through. That actually confirmed what Player is saying.


Read the cited articles and start quoting. Then your positions can be taken seriously.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3584
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:55 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:I don't even think that you read that all the way through. That actually confirmed what Player is saying.


Read the cited articles and start quoting. Then your positions can be taken seriously.

Yeah, we thought you would lapse into "well, you know... its just the accepted view and anyone who disagrees is just dumb".

The basic problem is, you are debating something entirely different than we are, or at least I am.

MY point , to be extremely brief, is that it doesn't matter what economic model you want to believe, any model is only going to be so good as the data put in. Economists have for far too long ignored chunks that really do matter. They have been able to pretend they don't matter for various reasons, but that is no longer the case. Or, worse, they pretend that they understand because they understand part of the human response to various issues. The trouble is, understanding the response is not at all the same as understanding the issue itself.
Sergeant PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:21 pm

Okay, explain what's wrong with the substitution effect. Explain which economic models you're talking about. Explain which variables for whatever models are being left out.

Launch into the attack of macro- and microeconomics.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3584
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:09 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Okay, explain what's wrong with the substitution effect. Explain which economic models you're talking about. Explain which variables for whatever models are being left out.

Launch into the attack of macro- and microeconomics.

Explain why all that is something more important than the right of people to live decently BEFORE whomever happens to own the company, etc gets to take a hefty profit.

Explain why that justifies passing on pollution, medical problems and a bad climate to our grandchildren...

Explain why those models and whatever even justify what you are saying.
Sergeant PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:28 pm

The substitution effect is a theory and requires that the rise in wages is above the wage threshold or whatever. We're very well below any wage threshold that would hurt investment. The Obama Administration has cited several studies that show that there would be little or no substitution effect if minimum wage were raised now, in the least of all because businesses have already laid off everyone that they could afford to during the recession. I think it was Sacia who casually remarked that of 100 business owners surveyed, less than 10% said that they would consider firing anyone. Almost all of them said they would try to find stronger ways to encourage workers to produce more. Plus, recent history doesn't support the substitution effect theory. I'm not sure that American History does either. There's always a short break-in period for every law, then industry takes off again. I'm sure you could find substitution effects taking place when businesses became required to install fire protection systems, or carrying insurance. The substitution effect is a kind of dinosaur argument.

As mentioned already, Oregon has raised their minimum wage and tied it to inflation. The state does fine.
http://www.latimes.com/business/money/l ... 8284.story

Many economists think Oregon’s minimum wage increase hasn’t hurt the state. Whether they can convince others remains to be seen. After all, it’s taken awhile for the profession to come around.

“While 20 or 30 years ago most economists believed that minimum wage increases invariably cause some job loss, as the data has come in, the profession has updated its beliefs,” Dube <said
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Juan_Bottom
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:59 pm
Location: USA RULES! WHOOO!!!!
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (3)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:32 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Okay, explain what's wrong with the substitution effect. Explain which economic models you're talking about. Explain which variables for whatever models are being left out.

Launch into the attack of macro- and microeconomics.

Explain why all that is something more important than the right of people to live decently BEFORE whomever happens to own the company, etc gets to take a hefty profit.

Explain why that justifies passing on pollution, medical problems and a bad climate to our grandchildren...

Explain why those models and whatever even justify what you are saying.


I'm not going to sit here for 8 hours teaching you economics. You should be capable of doing that on your own. I've already posted more than enough ITT.

However, if you criticize something (e.g. economics), then actually have something intelligent to say about it. Since you obviously cannot support your previous positions after being asked to do so, then go read a book. Internet dialogue isn't what you need.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3584
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:13 pm

Image

sorry guys... cannot afford raises this year. =(
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Juan_Bottom
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:59 pm
Location: USA RULES! WHOOO!!!!
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (3)

Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:48 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Explain why all that is something more important than the right of people to live decently BEFORE whomever happens to own the company, etc gets to take a hefty profit.


Define "decently" and "hefty profit". Furthermore, how does the government define what is "decently" for every person in a country that is vastly different within?


Juan_Bottom wrote:The Obama Administration has cited several studies that show that there would be little or no substitution effect if minimum wage were raised now, in the least of all because businesses have already laid off everyone that they could afford to during the recession.


Punish them while they're down! Never let a crisis go to waste!
Image
User avatar
Lieutenant Night Strike
Tournament Director
Tournament Director
 
Posts: 8622
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm
Medals: 77
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (10) Tournament Contribution (12) General Contribution (18)

PreviousNext

Return to Whose Forum is It Anyway?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Login