Rise of Minimum wage?

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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Serbia on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:08 pm

Eliminate minimum wage!!!1!1! eleventy111!
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:50 pm

This thread is bananas. I've gotten the impression that nobody other than player and myself make less than $25K a year, or aren't CEOs of big dumb companies. Because why would you vote against yourself? Unless you only buy American products so you can feel good about yourself, but you want to pay the cheapest price so you want to keep workers down.... or if you live off of fast food and can't afford to pay more for Burger King.

What would Utah Philips think of all of you? You should feel ashamed.
Also, serious question too - did any of you learn about American Labor History in high school or college? It seems like nobody here ever talks about history when discussing these topics, and everyone on the other side of this debate is pro big business. I feel like that's treason.

Why shouldn't Union workers make more money anyway? Union workers are not overpaid; you are underpaid. Fair wages do not bankrupt a business, poor management is what ruins a business. Each time a Unionized company fails, the Union gets blamed. But each time, as with GM and Hostess we see that the unions make repeated concessions to help the company do better. There's absolutely no reason to be anti-union at all, America is a Union, and look how strong we are. Some of our favorite American institutions are Unionized, like Hershey, Doritos, Pepsi, Coke, Keebler Cookies, Old Spice, Miller High Life, and Budweiser. Our teachers, police officers, paramedics, and firefighters are unionized.
Eric Liu, a popular lecturer and internet author said "Unions lift wages for non-union members by creating a higher prevailing wage. Even if you aren't a union member, your pay is influenced by the strength or weakness of organized labor. the presence of unions sets off a wage race to the top. Their absence sets off a race to the bottom." He's absolutely correct, because while worker pay peaked the same time that the minimum wage did, it's been on the decline ever since, as have Unions. While we had a strength of Unions in America, we all made more money at our jobs, and the economy was healthier.

Why shouldn't college students earn more money? Don't these poor bastards already get hammered enough?

If a business is successful, shouldn't they share that success with the ones who actually created it?

Of course you're not going to find many people working full time for minimum wage. Most of the businesses who hire workers for minimum wage suppress workers hours to less than 35 a week. They also hire teenagers, because only teenagers will work for shit wages with shit hours at a shitty job. That doesn't make the practice good, nor does it make the massive profits of companies like McDonalds or Wal*Mart ingeniously American. It's organized greed perpetrated at your expense. In Australia, for example, fast food workers make $16 an hour. Our ridiculous fake "fair" minimum wage works to protect big business profits only. Our minimum wage remains well below the rate of inflation. Adjusting for inflation the minimum wage should be $10.55 an hour. Now, how many American's work full time for less than $10.55 an hour? A bunch, I'm guessing. For example, according to southernstudies, the majority of construction workers in Texas work 40 hours a week, yet 52% of them live below the poverty level.
Slave wages will do nothing to help the worker or the economy.

Why shouldn't minimum wage be tied directly to inflation? FDR said, quite emphatically, that "No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to it's workers has any right to continue in this country." And remember who FDR was.... the guy who took over during the Great Depression. And again I say that our living wage is $10.55 an hour.
When the minimum wage peaked in 1968, America was in the mist of it's longest period of growth, ever. Unemployment averaged somewhere around 5%, which is similar to the 90s. The economy was robust and healthy. As Henry Ford said, if you want people to buy your shit, then you need to pay people enough to buy your shit. And that's the bottom line.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:51 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:Because why would you vote against yourself?


Because raising the minimum wage punishes those of us who have worked to educate ourselves and work in degree-dependent fields since we won't be seeing any pay increases from the increase in minimum wage. All it does is devalue the work we're currently doing while simultaneously raising our prices for everyday goods. Exact same thing goes for those people who have worked long enough to earn raises to be comfortably above minimum wage: their wages aren't going to increase just because minimum wage increased.

If people want to make more money, then they either need to work their way up or find a better place of employment. They don't get to run to the government and beg them to mandate pay increases.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Nobunaga on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:50 am

I read that a minimum wage of $19 and some change / hour would put everyone on an even keel and provide those struggling with a living wage.

It seems high, but that was the calculation that netted an annual $35,000.

I'd like to hear supporters of the minimum wage (and increases to it) tell me if they think this would be a good level of minimum? And why / why not.

Thank you.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby tzor on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:10 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:This thread is bananas. I've gotten the impression that nobody other than player and myself make less than $25K a year, or aren't CEOs of big dumb companies. Because why would you vote against yourself? Unless you only buy American products so you can feel good about yourself, but you want to pay the cheapest price so you want to keep workers down.... or if you live off of fast food and can't afford to pay more for Burger King.


First of all, I don't recall you know who posting on this thread lately and no thread is "bananas" unless he posts on it. :P

Second, I'm too lazy to want to pay the cheapest price. And I don't generally eat from fast food restaurants. My aunt and uncle lives off of the dollar menu but that's another story.

Third, while I do not have children I know enough young adults to know how hard it is for young adults to get a starter job in the first place.

It's the third part that motivates me. I see the youth and the minority youth unemployment rate. It's too damn high. I'm opposed to anything that might cause that to go up.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:17 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:This thread is bananas. I've gotten the impression that nobody other than player and myself make less than $25K a year, or aren't CEOs of big dumb companies. Because why would you vote against yourself? Unless you only buy American products so you can feel good about yourself, but you want to pay the cheapest price so you want to keep workers down.... or if you live off of fast food and can't afford to pay more for Burger King.

What would Utah Philips think of all of you? You should feel ashamed.
Also, serious question too - did any of you learn about American Labor History in high school or college? It seems like nobody here ever talks about history when discussing these topics, and everyone on the other side of this debate is pro big business. I feel like that's treason.

Why shouldn't Union workers make more money anyway? Union workers are not overpaid; you are underpaid. Fair wages do not bankrupt a business, poor management is what ruins a business. Each time a Unionized company fails, the Union gets blamed. But each time, as with GM and Hostess we see that the unions make repeated concessions to help the company do better. There's absolutely no reason to be anti-union at all, America is a Union, and look how strong we are. Some of our favorite American institutions are Unionized, like Hershey, Doritos, Pepsi, Coke, Keebler Cookies, Old Spice, Miller High Life, and Budweiser. Our teachers, police officers, paramedics, and firefighters are unionized.
Eric Liu, a popular lecturer and internet author said "Unions lift wages for non-union members by creating a higher prevailing wage. Even if you aren't a union member, your pay is influenced by the strength or weakness of organized labor. the presence of unions sets off a wage race to the top. Their absence sets off a race to the bottom." He's absolutely correct, because while worker pay peaked the same time that the minimum wage did, it's been on the decline ever since, as have Unions. While we had a strength of Unions in America, we all made more money at our jobs, and the economy was healthier.

Why shouldn't college students earn more money? Don't these poor bastards already get hammered enough?

If a business is successful, shouldn't they share that success with the ones who actually created it?

Of course you're not going to find many people working full time for minimum wage. Most of the businesses who hire workers for minimum wage suppress workers hours to less than 35 a week. They also hire teenagers, because only teenagers will work for shit wages with shit hours at a shitty job. That doesn't make the practice good, nor does it make the massive profits of companies like McDonalds or Wal*Mart ingeniously American. It's organized greed perpetrated at your expense. In Australia, for example, fast food workers make $16 an hour. Our ridiculous fake "fair" minimum wage works to protect big business profits only. Our minimum wage remains well below the rate of inflation. Adjusting for inflation the minimum wage should be $10.55 an hour. Now, how many American's work full time for less than $10.55 an hour? A bunch, I'm guessing. For example, according to southernstudies, the majority of construction workers in Texas work 40 hours a week, yet 52% of them live below the poverty level.
Slave wages will do nothing to help the worker or the economy.

Why shouldn't minimum wage be tied directly to inflation? FDR said, quite emphatically, that "No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to it's workers has any right to continue in this country." And remember who FDR was.... the guy who took over during the Great Depression. And again I say that our living wage is $10.55 an hour.
When the minimum wage peaked in 1968, America was in the mist of it's longest period of growth, ever. Unemployment averaged somewhere around 5%, which is similar to the 90s. The economy was robust and healthy. As Henry Ford said, if you want people to buy your shit, then you need to pay people enough to buy your shit. And that's the bottom line.


I would like to thank Juan for talking about the actual issue (unlike Player, I might add).

My response to this is that if union workers don't want their hourly wages tied to minimum wage, they should have demanded that their high priced attorneys draft agreements that did not tie hourly wages to minimum wage. I'm not anti-union. I'm actually very much pro-union. I think it's a form of capitalism or democracy for workers to organize and fight for higher wages. So, the unions have my blessing to go after higher wages in agreements with their employers. Go for it!

And just to be clear, from the SEIU website:

$917 = Median weekly earnings in 2010 of union members.


http://www.seiu.org/a/ourunion/research ... igures.php

That's $47,684 a year.
That's $22.95 an hour (assuming a 40 hour work week). $22.95 an hour is well over federal minimum wage, state minimum wage, and the "living wage" in a city like Philadelphia (according to MIT). And that wage does not count other benefits of being in a union, like for example health insurance benefits.

So yeah, you should be in a union if you can, but union workers are making a living wage and more. So don't feel sorry for them.

In the great state of New Jersey, teachers make on average $61,830 a year. That's $1,545 a week. That's $38 an hour assuming a 40 hour work week AND that the teacher works every week of every year (which usually doesn't occur). $38 an hour is well over federal minimum wage, state minimum wage, and the "living wage" in a city like Newark (according to MIT). And that wage does not count other benefits of being in the union, like only paying 6% or so of your health insurance costs (that number used to be much lower).

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/averag ... ersey.html

So yeah, you should be in the teachers union in New Jersey if you can, but New Jersey teachers are making a living wage and more. So don't feel sorry for them.

And lest you think otherwise, I'm not denigrating unions. Good for the SEIU members. Good for the New Jersey teachers. Great job. Keep fighting the fight. But don't expect me to feel sorry for you.

By the way. Juan, Player - you guys should probably look into this union thing. You could double your salaries!
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:57 pm

Nobunaga wrote:I read that a minimum wage of $19 and some change / hour would put everyone on an even keel and provide those struggling with a living wage.

It seems high, but that was the calculation that netted an annual $35,000.

I'd like to hear supporters of the minimum wage (and increases to it) tell me if they think this would be a good level of minimum? And why / why not.

Thank you.


Sauce plz.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:40 pm

$38 an hour sounds ok to me. Probably a little low considering teachers are one of the most important resources that we have, and teachers in other industrialized nations are paid more to work less hours than ours. Japan is one that comes to mind.

I have no problem with the wages paid to Union workers, it's the rest of us who should be getting raises. Like Utah said, it's the workers who really own the company.


Night Strike wrote:Because raising the minimum wage punishes those of us who have worked to educate ourselves and work in degree-dependent fields since we won't be seeing any pay increases from the increase in minimum wage. All it does is devalue the work we're currently doing while simultaneously raising our prices for everyday goods. Exact same thing goes for those people who have worked long enough to earn raises to be comfortably above minimum wage: their wages aren't going to increase just because minimum wage increased.

If people want to make more money, then they either need to work their way up or find a better place of employment. They don't get to run to the government and beg them to mandate pay increases.


Greed

tzor wrote:
It's the third part that motivates me. I see the youth and the minority youth unemployment rate. It's too damn high. I'm opposed to anything that might cause that to go up.

The minimum wage in Australia is $16.43 American. They have a 5.3% unemployment rate. In the 60's, when our own minimum wage was quadruple what it is now, unemployment was around 5%.
Corporate douchebags tried to use similar arguments about costs to produce goods being too high and being unable to afford to hire more workers to prevent child labor laws, safety inspections, fair wages, overtime, fire escapes, and all sorts of stuff. But experience shows that none of their arguments hold any weight; it's just greedy old bastards lying to protect their obscene profits.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby tzor on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:06 pm

By the way, I saw an interesting thing on Facebook today from one of my favorite Star Trek (TOS) actors. I decided to do some research. Australia's minimum wage. Note there are conversion factors to consider. 1 AUD = 1.03 USD

Basic argument

The national minimum wage acts as a safety net for employees in the national workplace relations system to provide minimum rates of pay for employees not covered by awards or agreements. National minimum wage orders are made by the Minimum Wage Panel of the Fair Work Commission.

Australia's minimum wage is $15.96 per hour or $606.40 per week. Generally, employees in the national system shouldn't get less than this.

An employee's basic rate of pay depends on such things as their age, job classification and what industrial instrument they're covered by (e.g. a modern award, pre-modern award, transitional Pay Scale, workplace agreement and so on).

The minimum wages received by employees in the national workplace relations system are reviewed by the Fair Work Commission annually, with any adjustments taking effect from the first pay period on or after 1 July each year.


BUT NOTICE THIS EXCEPTION ...

National minimum wages for apprentices, juniors & trainees

Special national minimum wages have also been set for trainees, apprentices and juniors who are not covered by any other award or agreement. These apply from the first pay period on or after 1 July 2012.

For junior employees, the minimum rates are:
Under 16 years of age $5.87
At 16 years of age $7.55
At 17 years of age $9.22
At 18 years of age $10.90
At 19 years of age $13.17
At 20 years of age $15.59.
For apprentices, the rates are:
Year 1 of apprenticeship $10.22
Year 2 of apprenticeship $12.08
Year 3 of apprenticeship $14.87
Year 4 of apprenticeship $17.65.


So young adults and people with little job experience are not forced out of the workforce because of their age/experience. Employers cannot abuse them because their wages increase with time (as does their skills). With these two exceptions, one can easily increase the minimum wage while keeping youth unemployment low.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:31 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:$38 an hour sounds ok to me. Probably a little low considering teachers are one of the most important resources that we have, and teachers in other industrialized nations are paid more to work less hours than ours. Japan is one that comes to mind.


Unforunately for teachers, many people can be and want to be teachers. Also, unfortunately for young teachers, older teachers are virtually unfireable. I guess you can blame unions Juan. Hard to negotiate salaries higher when you have 5,000 future teachers waiting in line.

I need some more data, preferably not partisan, that shows that higher minimum wages mean higher wages for all means no substantial increase in the price of consumer goods. That's a lot of stuff.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:38 pm

Condensing to Juan's major points.

Juan_Bottom wrote:This thread is bananas. I've gotten the impression that nobody other than player and myself make less than $25K a year, or aren't CEOs of big dumb companies. Because why would you vote against yourself? Unless you only buy American products so you can feel good about yourself, but you want to pay the cheapest price so you want to keep workers down.... or if you live off of fast food and can't afford to pay more for Burger King.

Why shouldn't college students earn more money? Don't these poor bastards already get hammered enough?

If a business is successful, shouldn't they share that success with the ones who actually created it?

Of course you're not going to find many people working full time for minimum wage. Most of the businesses who hire workers for minimum wage suppress workers hours to less than 35 a week.
Slave wages will do nothing to help the worker or the economy.



I don't make more than 25k a year, don't quite make that, but make more than the proposed minimum wage. So what a min wage increase would do is cost me more to live, because when they pass those min wage laws, they don't require that everyone above minimum get a salary increase based on the percentage of minimum wage rise. Now, if the min wage increase law came along with a requirement to increase everyone else by 27% I might be "for" it - but the price of bread is still likely to rise by more like 50% because costs of things don't include "just" inflation.

To me, it's about buying power. A min wage increase doesn't increase the buying power of those who make min or barely above min; usually decreases the buying power for those because costs of the things they buy "most" increase more than the costs of things "the rich" can afford and buy more of.

I mean, the price of a can of tuna is likely to double while the price of caviar will see only a modest inrease.

Because the CEOs are not going to give up their bulk percentage of company profit that they've worked so hard over the past few decades to ensure they're getting.

I agree that it doesn't help the economy when they're this greedy, I've made that point in other threads.

But increasing the minimum wage isn't going to change that at all, it will just mean those who finally broke thru that min ceiling will find their buying power greatly reduced again.

It doesn't make me "bananas" it makes me sane to realize a min wage increase doesn't do anything, just like "make currently legal guns illegal" won't stop crazies from doing crazy illegal shit - at least, doesn't do anything but make Congress "look like they're doing something" to those to uneducated to analyze the root of the problem and the proposed fix and realize that in both the min wage and the ban guns, the supposed "fix" does not fix the real problem at all, and in fact, creates a new set of problems.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:52 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:$38 an hour sounds ok to me. Probably a little low considering teachers are one of the most important resources that we have, and teachers in other industrialized nations are paid more to work less hours than ours. Japan is one that comes to mind.


Unforunately for teachers, many people can be and want to be teachers. Also, unfortunately for young teachers, older teachers are virtually unfireable. I guess you can blame unions Juan. Hard to negotiate salaries higher when you have 5,000 future teachers waiting in line.

I need some more data, preferably not partisan, that shows that higher minimum wages mean higher wages for all means no substantial increase in the price of consumer goods. That's a lot of stuff.


Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise. The problem is, more and more of the profit is simply ending up in a smaller proportion of the population, and hence the economy has lagged.

There are no less resources than there were and yet, there seems to be a harder time getting them. Its not by accident. They have been systematically fleeced, and it has cost everyone money.

When you raise the salary of those below you, you increase your salary as well. When you decrease it, unless you directly employ those people, you decrease your salary.

I certainly hate the abuse by unions, because it undermines the economy too, however, without them, most of us would not be in the position we are in today. It was the programs that seemingly successful people benefited from, that ironically allows them to have the time to bitch about now.

As Ive argued before, its not about radical change either....its really just a few percentage points that tips one way or another. In the Bush years, too much money was fleeced out of the economy in a variety of ways, both legal, and illegal, and the economy is suffering massively. The fleeced money is simply taken out of the economy, and in many cases, on foreign soil helping no one.

And those who are even doing well, in say 300000 a year jobs, assume they are above being hurt by this, because they are employed by those corporations, but as the bottom erodes, so do the levels above. Its why we have massive unemployment. Its why we have deficits, and why the economy is not what it was. An economy is just money moving back and forth between people and people doing work for each other. When you take it out of the economy, it stops, which is exactly what happened. Sure, not every bit of it gets taken out, but quite a bit of it did, and we are in the position we are in now, and the effects are cascading up the ladder more and more everyday.

Unfortunately, those on the ladder just dont realize that as they knock people off below them, the ladder isnt what was holding them up, but the people on the ladder itself. The workers are the ladder, and keeping the lower levels employed, productive and paid well enough to actually purchase items is what drives the economy. Allowing them to be exploited for too little, just means more cash is fleeced from the economy, and much of it, will never be reintroduced.

The history of our economy has proven this is how it works. There are many factors, but there is no question the proof is right there, if you look at the correct variables, in the correct light.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:43 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise.


How do you know it has and how do you know it will?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:46 pm

AAFitz wrote:When you raise the salary of those below you, you increase your salary as well. When you decrease it, unless you directly employ those people, you decrease your salary.


If this is the case then why aren't the evil rich people raising salaries?

Consumer goods increase for a variety of reasons, most of which don't have to do with (or, more accurately, won't be affected by) minimum wage laws.

If I want to make more money there are a number of ways to achieve my goal. Way down on that list is getting the minimum wage to be increased; even when I was making close to minimum wage, my solution was to work more hours or get a different job. A better education could also get me a higher salary. Joining a union could get me a higher salary. Taking a risk may also allow me to make more money.

AAFitz wrote:I certainly hate the abuse by unions, because it undermines the economy too, however, without them, most of us would not be in the position we are in today. It was the programs that seemingly successful people benefited from, that ironically allows them to have the time to bitch about now.


I don't think the unions are abusing anything. I think union leaders are taking advantage, certainly, but I have no problem with unions or union members attempting to get better benefits for members. I'm serious when I say that. My problem with the Indiana and New Jersey situations is that there was a direct correlation between tax dollars and unions and these were merely renegotiations. I was fine with the unions' positions. I was fine with the states' positions. Anyway, that's not the point.

AAFitz wrote:too much money was fleeced out of the economy in a variety of ways, both legal, and illegal, and the economy is suffering massively. The fleeced money is simply taken out of the economy, and in many cases, on foreign soil helping no one.


That doesn't seem very accurate to me. I'll let BBS do the yelling though.

AAFitz wrote:And those who are even doing well, in say 300000 a year jobs, assume they are above being hurt by this, because they are employed by those corporations, but as the bottom erodes, so do the levels above. Its why we have massive unemployment. Its why we have deficits, and why the economy is not what it was. An economy is just money moving back and forth between people and people doing work for each other. When you take it out of the economy, it stops, which is exactly what happened. Sure, not every bit of it gets taken out, but quite a bit of it did, and we are in the position we are in now, and the effects are cascading up the ladder more and more everyday.


I'm not sure about this either. Way more intelligent people than me, from both sides of the aisle and unaffiliated, would say that the 2008 recession occurred for a variety of reasons, none of which had to do with salaries or wages of the lower or lower-middle class. It was a combination of the housing crisis brought on by stupid borrowers, predatory lenders, and government subsidies of both plus investment in "fake" equity (or whatever we're calling it these days) that did the economy in.

And ultimately, you could make the minimum wage $500 an hour (I know you are not advocating this), but if the jobs aren't there... if there's no demand or qualified workers to fill demand... or if someone can make money not working... you're going to be in the same boat you're in now. And I'm willing to bet that if Bob McDonaldesmployee made $36 an hour instead of $9 an hour, when the recession hit, a whole lot more McDonald's employees would be hitting the streets. Plenty of people identifying wtih the upper middle class lost their jobs and they made well more than minimum wage.

And that last sentence is ultimately why I don't believe the hype. Lawyers, bankers, accountants, CEOs, CFOs, controllers, engineers... all those upper middle class and wealthy individuals... they all lost their jobs too. You know who really didn't lose their jobs? Government employees... teachers... union workers. The former group is not unionized, but makes a good salary and has good purchasing power. The latter group tends to be unionized or living off of other peoples' tax dollars.

Making more money does not insulate you from recessions. Making more money does not mean you've succeeded or reached a pinnacle. Is it better to make more money than less? Yes, but I just can't agree with your premise at all.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:53 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise.


How do you know it has and how do you know it will?


I dont know the sun will come up tomorrow to be honest, it is an assumption, simply based on past.

Further, there are many variables, and some have risen, and some have fallen dramatically...however, overall, the cost goes up, and unless there is great change, it is unlikely, that trend would change.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:11 am

thegreekdog wrote:
AAFitz wrote:When you raise the salary of those below you, you increase your salary as well. When you decrease it, unless you directly employ those people, you decrease your salary.


If this is the case then why aren't the evil rich people raising salaries?

Consumer goods increase for a variety of reasons, most of which don't have to do with (or, more accurately, won't be affected by) minimum wage laws.

If I want to make more money there are a number of ways to achieve my goal. Way down on that list is getting the minimum wage to be increased; even when I was making close to minimum wage, my solution was to work more hours or get a different job. A better education could also get me a higher salary. Joining a union could get me a higher salary. Taking a risk may also allow me to make more money.

AAFitz wrote:I certainly hate the abuse by unions, because it undermines the economy too, however, without them, most of us would not be in the position we are in today. It was the programs that seemingly successful people benefited from, that ironically allows them to have the time to bitch about now.


I don't think the unions are abusing anything. I think union leaders are taking advantage, certainly, but I have no problem with unions or union members attempting to get better benefits for members. I'm serious when I say that. My problem with the Indiana and New Jersey situations is that there was a direct correlation between tax dollars and unions and these were merely renegotiations. I was fine with the unions' positions. I was fine with the states' positions. Anyway, that's not the point.

AAFitz wrote:too much money was fleeced out of the economy in a variety of ways, both legal, and illegal, and the economy is suffering massively. The fleeced money is simply taken out of the economy, and in many cases, on foreign soil helping no one.


That doesn't seem very accurate to me. I'll let BBS do the yelling though.

AAFitz wrote:And those who are even doing well, in say 300000 a year jobs, assume they are above being hurt by this, because they are employed by those corporations, but as the bottom erodes, so do the levels above. Its why we have massive unemployment. Its why we have deficits, and why the economy is not what it was. An economy is just money moving back and forth between people and people doing work for each other. When you take it out of the economy, it stops, which is exactly what happened. Sure, not every bit of it gets taken out, but quite a bit of it did, and we are in the position we are in now, and the effects are cascading up the ladder more and more everyday.


I'm not sure about this either. Way more intelligent people than me, from both sides of the aisle and unaffiliated, would say that the 2008 recession occurred for a variety of reasons, none of which had to do with salaries or wages of the lower or lower-middle class. It was a combination of the housing crisis brought on by stupid borrowers, predatory lenders, and government subsidies of both plus investment in "fake" equity (or whatever we're calling it these days) that did the economy in.

And ultimately, you could make the minimum wage $500 an hour (I know you are not advocating this), but if the jobs aren't there... if there's no demand or qualified workers to fill demand... or if someone can make money not working... you're going to be in the same boat you're in now. And I'm willing to bet that if Bob McDonaldesmployee made $36 an hour instead of $9 an hour, when the recession hit, a whole lot more McDonald's employees would be hitting the streets. Plenty of people identifying wtih the upper middle class lost their jobs and they made well more than minimum wage.

And that last sentence is ultimately why I don't believe the hype. Lawyers, bankers, accountants, CEOs, CFOs, controllers, engineers... all those upper middle class and wealthy individuals... they all lost their jobs too. You know who really didn't lose their jobs? Government employees... teachers... union workers. The former group is not unionized, but makes a good salary and has good purchasing power. The latter group tends to be unionized or living off of other peoples' tax dollars.

Making more money does not insulate you from recessions. Making more money does not mean you've succeeded or reached a pinnacle. Is it better to make more money than less? Yes, but I just can't agree with your premise at all.


The individual quoting is just not worth it at this point, but

You called them evil rich people, not me....

Also as far as why arent they raising wages, the answer is simply supply and demand, in that they dont have to. Also, some very much do benefit from not raising wages, and those are the people at the very top, who dont return as much money into the economy, which creates the cycle I referred to.

Further, you say you dont agree with my premise, but above it you post my point.

" Lawyers, bankers, accountants, CEOs, CFOs, controllers, engineers... all those upper middle class and wealthy individuals... they all lost their jobs too. "


That is my point. My point is that as money was fleeced out of the economy, and now sits idle, at a slightly higher percent than it was, there was not enough to support those jobs.

In any case, I dont care if you agree with it, and I dont expect you to. It is just a theory after all, and a rambling one at that. However, overall, its based on the history of the economy, and while youve constructed a theory of your own, it is false, and has proven to be false, and is playing out to be so every day, and unfortunately will continue to do so, until, as with every situation, it is so bad, people finally act.

Human nature is simply to wait till bad things happen, and not act before. While I never expect anyone to say, oh you were right, just keep in the back of your mind in ten years...that...well, I am.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby CBlake on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:08 am

I Start this thread. I so popular.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:08 am

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise.


How do you know it has and how do you know it will?


I dont know the sun will come up tomorrow to be honest, it is an assumption, simply based on past.

Further, there are many variables, and some have risen, and some have fallen dramatically...however, overall, the cost goes up, and unless there is great change, it is unlikely, that trend would change.


In other words, "assuming that the average price of consumers goods has been rising and will always rise, ..."

Is that a correct summary?
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:09 am

CBlake wrote:I Start this thread. I so popular.

It brings so many posters to your milk shakes.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:11 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise.


How do you know it has and how do you know it will?


I dont know the sun will come up tomorrow to be honest, it is an assumption, simply based on past.

Further, there are many variables, and some have risen, and some have fallen dramatically...however, overall, the cost goes up, and unless there is great change, it is unlikely, that trend would change.


In other words, "assuming that the average price of consumers goods has been rising and will always rise, ..."

Is that a correct summary?


No.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:13 am

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Thats the thing and the reason why a minimum wage is necessary. The price of consumer goods has risen and will always rise.


How do you know it has and how do you know it will?


I dont know the sun will come up tomorrow to be honest, it is an assumption, simply based on past.

Further, there are many variables, and some have risen, and some have fallen dramatically...however, overall, the cost goes up, and unless there is great change, it is unlikely, that trend would change.


In other words, "assuming that the average price of consumers goods has been rising and will always rise, ..."

Is that a correct summary?


No.


So how would you rephrase it?

(With economics, you have to be clear; otherwise, it's easy to make mistakes and create misunderstandings/forever changing positions--like PLAYER).
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:51 am

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Because why would you vote against yourself?


Because raising the minimum wage punishes those of us who have worked to educate ourselves and work in degree-dependent fields since we won't be seeing any pay increases from the increase in minimum wage. All it does is devalue the work we're currently doing while simultaneously raising our prices for everyday goods. Exact same thing goes for those people who have worked long enough to earn raises to be comfortably above minimum wage: their wages aren't going to increase just because minimum wage increased.

So that explains why its perfectly OK that millions of people can only survive by depending on government handouts?

Night Strike wrote:If people want to make more money, then they either need to work their way up or find a better place of employment. They don't get to run to the government and beg them to mandate pay increases.

People who work in the lowest wage jobs don't have those options.
Moving is expensive.. takes money. and if you leave one job, then other employers don't hire you, either. You become labeled as a "whiner".

For all your talk of fear about employees suing because they were let go, the bigger truth is that employers share data about employees.. in ways that are not necessarily even legal, but someone making only $8.00 an hour can't go out and hire a fancy attorney, despite your dreams otherwise. The people who DO sue are the higher wage employees.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:59 am

thegreekdog wrote:By the way. Juan, Player - you guys should probably look into this union thing. You could double your salaries!

LOL
Unions tried to come in to several of the local plants.. ALL of whom pay at least $9.00 an hour for their fulltime employees who are not secretaries (secretaries tend to make around $8.00 an hour). They failed. I can get into that in another thread, but the short of it is that when a plant is unionized, it "magically" winds up closing shortly after for various "unrelated' reasons.

HOWEVER, calling for unions misses the biggest point. For unions to work requires a unified, large force. Those making the lowest wages are hired in few numbers spread out all over. A few work for Dollar General, a few for McDonald's, a few for just about any organization you can name, even some union companies, just in jobs not covered by the union.

AND... none of that really answers the biggest point, which is, again, that the primary reason these people do work for such low wages, CAN work for such low wages is that they are being supported elsewhere..often supported by our tax dollars.

For people claiming to be against government support, you are awfully happy to have it when it supports YOUR interests! Demanding a livable wage is about NOT depending on government subsidies. It is about making businesses pay their fair due, instead of taking the cheap route on the pretense that they are somehow "helping society".. whilst really drawing government assistance in very big ways to fortify their big checks.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:51 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Because why would you vote against yourself?


Because raising the minimum wage punishes those of us who have worked to educate ourselves and work in degree-dependent fields since we won't be seeing any pay increases from the increase in minimum wage. All it does is devalue the work we're currently doing while simultaneously raising our prices for everyday goods. Exact same thing goes for those people who have worked long enough to earn raises to be comfortably above minimum wage: their wages aren't going to increase just because minimum wage increased.

So that explains why its perfectly OK that millions of people can only survive by depending on government handouts?


Get rid of the government handouts and either employers will start paying their low-wage workers more, or those workers will find new jobs.

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:If people want to make more money, then they either need to work their way up or find a better place of employment. They don't get to run to the government and beg them to mandate pay increases.

People who work in the lowest wage jobs don't have those options.
Moving is expensive.. takes money. and if you leave one job, then other employers don't hire you, either. You become labeled as a "whiner".


Moving around in this country has never been easier. Do you REALLY think it was easier to find a job elsewhere and move 20, 50, or 100 years ago? Today with the internet and basically everybody having cell phones, people can find jobs all over the country. So quit this whining BS about people not being able to move. If people have a desire to succeed, they will do the hard work and make the tough choices to make it happen. It just so happens that too many people today are too lazy and will make excuses that they deserve more than they're getting and will elect people who promise to hand them easy money. Quit making excuses for people and demanding that the government take care of them. Start promoting personal responsibility!
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:32 pm

Night Strike wrote:Moving around in this country has never been easier. Do you REALLY think it was easier to find a job elsewhere and move 20, 50, or 100 years ago? Today with the internet and basically everybody having cell phones, people can find jobs all over the country. So quit this whining BS about people not being able to move.

You are right that transportation around the country has improved over the last century. But moving can still have a large number of hurdles.


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