Accidental Strawmen

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Accidental Strawmen

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:51 am

The following example is a conversation between NS and Symmetry where Symmetry accidentally creates a straw man from NS' position. This isn't a thread about our dear ConquerClubber's, Sym and NS, but rather an investigation into our ability to create accidental strawman fallacies.


Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.

Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.


Hilarious- what skills do you think they're picking up? Why do you think only young people are in these positions?


Note Sym's "Hilarious" and his second question, the straw man.

Two Questions:

Did Symmetry carefully read NS' post?

Or did he catch a few phrases which made him emotionally react--negatively, thus immediately rejecting NS' position, which does not sync with Symmetry's own preconceived, or rather strongly held, notions?


Conclusion/ tl;dr
It seems that many people inadvertently tend to create straw man fallacies from the disagreeable positions of others--especially when strong emotions or deeply held beliefs are being countered. We probably all do this--at varying frequencies in regard to different subjects, but we should be aware of this possibility.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby Symmetry on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:56 am

Cute.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby / on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:37 am

If people become aware of these so called "fallacies", they will feel the need to point them out, this will undoubtedly result in arguments.
BBS, why do you want people to fight?
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby crispybits on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:54 am

What you call a "fight" I would say is part of a healthy and spirited debate. If we can't call each other out for logical fallacies or just plain incorrect statements, then there can be no discussion at all when people hold differing viewpoints. If our objective is just to happily agree on everyting then this forum and many, many others becomes a very boring place indeed.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:09 am

/ wrote:If people become aware of these so called "fallacies", they will feel the need to point them out, this will undoubtedly result in arguments.
BBS, why do you want people to fight?

Let's assume your Serious Business.

The underlined is not the only outcome, and people can learn the proper art of argument over time--as crispybits mentions. From conflict comes better coordination.

I'm just wondering if people realize how emotionally susceptible they are to creating strawman fallacies.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby strike wolf on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:41 am

/ wrote:If people become aware of these so called "fallacies", they will feel the need to point them out, this will undoubtedly result in arguments.
BBS, why do you want people to fight?


petitio principii ;)
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:53 am

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

-- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love" (Robert Heinlein)
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby _sabotage_ on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:09 am

If you would like to see examples of BBS using the same tactics he describes here, please see the 2/3 believe in conspiracy theories threads.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:21 am

/ wrote:If people become aware of these so called "fallacies", they will feel the need to point them out, this will undoubtedly result in arguments.
BBS, why do you want people to fight?


What's that? You want a fight?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:25 am

_sabotage_ wrote:If you would like to see examples of BBS using the same tactics he describes here, please see the 2/3 believe in conspiracy theories threads.

Things don't exist outside of this topic. It is all an illusion. This is all that exists in the world.


--Andy
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby crispybits on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:44 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote:If you would like to see examples of BBS using the same tactics he describes here, please see the 2/3 believe in conspiracy theories threads.

Things don't exist outside of this topic. It is all an illusion. This is all that exists in the world.


--Andy


But but but - I see no bananas in this topic.... :shock:
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Postby 2dimes on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:22 am

There is no banana.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:28 am

crispybits wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote:If you would like to see examples of BBS using the same tactics he describes here, please see the 2/3 believe in conspiracy theories threads.

Things don't exist outside of this topic. It is all an illusion. This is all that exists in the world.


--Andy


But but but - I see no bananas in this topic.... :shock:
2dimes wrote:There is no banana.

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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby KoolBak on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:31 am

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"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:41 am

crispybits wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote:If you would like to see examples of BBS using the same tactics he describes here, please see the 2/3 believe in conspiracy theories threads.

Things don't exist outside of this topic. It is all an illusion. This is all that exists in the world.


--Andy


But but but - I see no bananas in this topic.... :shock:

2dimes wrote:There is no banana.


Correct, bananas exist within each one of us.

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--Andy
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby crispybits on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:00 pm

Lies! god made them!

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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:37 pm

Excellent, Gentlemen. Keep up the Hi-Quality work!
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby tzor on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:20 pm

Dukasaur wrote:


One of my most favorite songs ... because they mention the almost extinct "Long Island Potato."

(The near extinction of the Long Island Potato occurred when some chap in Idaho came up with a packaging method that allowed you to see the potatoes. While the great potatoes of the Hampton's were great tasting, they didn't have the looks of an Idaho potato. Potato farms declined in the 20th century. Fortunately, there a few left ... and we now make vodka from them!)
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby Neoteny on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:26 pm

Fascinating. And I'm not being a dick. I now want a Long Island potato and its associated vodka.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby tzor on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:26 pm

I should preface this by pointing out that I just had a nice meal of fresh Chorizo, yellow rice, and plantains, the bigger brother of the banana.

So what is a banana? It is many things. It is the principle ingredient for the Yonannas frozen fun device. But I like to think of it as a cold vegetarian hot dog. Put it on a hot dog bun with a little mayonnaise and a few spices (garam marsala is nice) and it's great!
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:28 pm

Me too. You can bring them when you come to see As You Like It on May 12th... you know you want to bring a birthday present.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby tzor on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:30 pm

Neoteny wrote:Fascinating. And I'm not being a dick. I now want a Long Island potato and its associated vodka.


Go HERE
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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:36 pm

Exhibit #2
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=186219#p4070037

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:The risk of Chinese spies, yo. [and] You're married to a 17 month old?


Obviously BBS was suggesting your wife was the terrorist in the situation, and to some degree he is right, because it wouldn't be the first time unfortunately, but he is also insanely hypocritical on this because its an example of Government probably going too far, which he usually is against, but instead abandons that because of a personal bias against you. There will be an arrogant answer about how he was right on this occasion as he is right in every instance that he ever posts, which is unfortunate, because it makes every post suspect of bias.




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Re: Accidental Strawmen

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:22 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
/ wrote:If people become aware of these so called "fallacies", they will feel the need to point them out, this will undoubtedly result in arguments.
BBS, why do you want people to fight?

Let's assume your Serious Business.

The underlined is not the only outcome, and people can learn the proper art of argument over time--as crispybits mentions. From conflict comes better coordination.

I'm just wondering if people realize how emotionally susceptible they are to creating strawman fallacies.


I've probably done this. I feel like when I do get this mindset it's because I feel more passionately about the new argument I've developed than the one currently on the table, not because I feel like I'm losing the argument or whatever. In other words, I've moved on. Selfish I know but I don't think I do it consciously.
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