legalizing all drugs

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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:10 pm

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Hey, that may be okay, but your position is only wishful thinking when it's applied to nearly everyone else. With me, I prefer the benefits and costs of living in a freer society, which would enable people to discovery their own solutions through trial-and-error. We have to acknowledge that the good intentions of public officials has caused an unnecessary, international war against black market buyers and sellers, imposed great costs on individuals by imprisoning so many people and by wasting their prime years, has induced an impetus toward more crime, and has forced those in the black market to enforce contracts through needless violence and death.

Given the consequences of the Prohibition Era, the ongoing repercussions of current prohibitions, and the inherent constraints of imperfect government, we must end prohibition and seek other solutions. That's the more practical and beneficial stance for society.
(If anyone disagrees, then they must justify all the unintended consequences. Good luck.)


You must not justify the unintended consequences in order to disagree. It is not the ban on drugs that is the problem, but the ineffective ban on them. What you would justify is many, many more lives destroyed by drugs that have no business existing in the first place. The fact that you are too shortsighted to see that it very much could be controlled better, does not justify your position, its just a cop out, and a ridiculously naive one at that.


Ramp up the effectiveness of the ban, and the consequences become more dire and/or the society becomes imposed under a more authoritarian government.
Acknowledging the limits of human behavior yet superimposing wishful thinking on it (e.g. better prohibition from angelic public officials) fails to alleviate the consequences--it only exacerbates them.

Regarding what I would allegedly justify: I've already dealt with this in detail from pages 1-3 or so.

Most importantly, I'm assuming we want to live in a free, democratic society. I imagine that Saudi Arabia is more effective in prohibiting certain drugs, so would you like Americans to live within a Saudi-esque United States? (Of course not, but you don't seem to realize the constraints of our givens, nor do you seem to realize the implications of accepting a more authoritarian government).

All I'm saying is that after we acknowledge the limits of liberal democracy, the continued susceptibility of some individuals to irresponsibly use drugs, and the consequences of prohibition, then we must stop with the excuses, stop supporting the prohibition, and use more efficient substitutes (legalization, decriminalization, government regulation--but not prohibition).
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:21 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:FDA approval? Why would Pfizer, Merck, et. al. submit their drugs to the FDA approval process? If drugs were legal they could just put them directly onto store shelves and save themselves millions having to prove safety in clinical trials. I don't understand how the FDA still exists in this scenario.

(Maybe you want to maintain the FDA approval process but have like a Rave Exemption where therapeutic standards get waived if the manufacturer has a letter from a club promoter?)


I'm re-imagining the FDA as an organization that tests drugs and gives their approval to those least likely to kill you.
It would not have the power to stop Pfizer, Merck, et. al. from selling their drug but the lack of the FDA approval stamp would mean that people would be reticent to use it and, specifically, doctors would be liable if they prescribed a non-FDA approved drug over an FDA approved drug without good reason.

Of course it isn't necessary for this role to be taken by the FDA. You could have private institutions take on the role of the FDA in this scenario.

I can already see the commercials now "guy takes anti-hairloss drug, guy becomes bald overweight and impotent, big red cross is superimposed on image of newly suicidal guy, announcer says 'This can be you if you buy non [insert name here] approved drugs, is it really worth the risk?' end scene"


OK, that's fair. And I agree, after the FDA was abolished, Consumer Reports would probably provide the same testing process, albeit on a voluntary basis and without police power.

Do you also support privatizing food inspection and (restaurant) sanitation compliance?
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby AAFitz on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:45 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Hey, that may be okay, but your position is only wishful thinking when it's applied to nearly everyone else. With me, I prefer the benefits and costs of living in a freer society, which would enable people to discovery their own solutions through trial-and-error. We have to acknowledge that the good intentions of public officials has caused an unnecessary, international war against black market buyers and sellers, imposed great costs on individuals by imprisoning so many people and by wasting their prime years, has induced an impetus toward more crime, and has forced those in the black market to enforce contracts through needless violence and death.

Given the consequences of the Prohibition Era, the ongoing repercussions of current prohibitions, and the inherent constraints of imperfect government, we must end prohibition and seek other solutions. That's the more practical and beneficial stance for society.
(If anyone disagrees, then they must justify all the unintended consequences. Good luck.)


You must not justify the unintended consequences in order to disagree. It is not the ban on drugs that is the problem, but the ineffective ban on them. What you would justify is many, many more lives destroyed by drugs that have no business existing in the first place. The fact that you are too shortsighted to see that it very much could be controlled better, does not justify your position, its just a cop out, and a ridiculously naive one at that.


Ramp up the effectiveness of the ban, and the consequences become more dire and/or the society becomes imposed under a more authoritarian government.
Acknowledging the limits of human behavior yet superimposing wishful thinking on it (e.g. better prohibition from angelic public officials) fails to alleviate the consequences--it only exacerbates them.

Regarding what I would allegedly justify: I've already dealt with this in detail from pages 1-3 or so.

Most importantly, I'm assuming we want to live in a free, democratic society. I imagine that Saudi Arabia is more effective in prohibiting certain drugs, so would you like Americans to live within a Saudi-esque United States? (Of course not, but you don't seem to realize the constraints of our givens, nor do you seem to realize the implications of accepting a more authoritarian government).

All I'm saying is that after we acknowledge the limits of liberal democracy, the continued susceptibility of some individuals to irresponsibly use drugs, and the consequences of prohibition, then we must stop with the excuses, stop supporting the prohibition, and use more efficient substitutes (legalization, decriminalization, government regulation--but not prohibition).


So the government would be adequate and efficient at regulating heroin, but not banning it. Its a ridiculous notion.

Either the government sucks or it doesnt. Youre saying it does, so it could never regulate something so volatile easily...

As far as living like an American vs Saudi-esque, its again ridiculous, because I dont get anywhere near drugs, so I would have nothing to fear about laws governing them.

I fully agree the current approach doesnt work, but legalizing them is not a valid approach, simply because the current one doesnt work.

If we wanted them gone, they would be gone. The main problem is, people dont care about drugs or their affects on people, unless its happening to their own kids...and then its too late.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:19 pm

The assumption that most of these posts make is that herion, coke and other drugs are not already readily available. They are, but it's just a matter of how we choose to deal with them.

In the current model, we provide a black market economy and a pork barrel economy, a reason for search and seizure, local and international policing and weapons deals, a means of generating covert funds and the generation and persecution of victimless crimes.

If you contend that they are harmful, so are a vast amount of legal goods. If you say they are addictive, so is conquerclub, if you say they ruin families, so does making a mother a single parent and giving a kid the stigma of a pop in jail.

The issues that exist around drugs, from agricultural requirements, to substance abuse could be dealt with more effective were they legal. A branded product would create a consumer watchdog or at least consumer ratings, which isn't currently possible, so regardless of legislation, dangerous impurities would lower product demand, thereby creating a stable product purity.

Cannabis is a gateway drug to a second and third strike, to social discrimination, a police state and profiteering.

Almost all action taken against drugs to eradicate or criminalize them have had the opposite effect. Marijuana was a fringe drug when it was legislated against, now it is more common for highschoolers to take it than to drink.

Drugs will exist, we will not be able to rid ourselves of them and no one can say for sure that it isn't a good thing for people to have access to them.

The issue is how we can improve the consequences of having drugs in our society.

The current method has so many flaws besides the great expense and the fact that it is self perpetuating that it would be easy to improve upon if we stopped acting like we can decide right and wrong for others.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:06 pm

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Hey, that may be okay, but your position is only wishful thinking when it's applied to nearly everyone else. With me, I prefer the benefits and costs of living in a freer society, which would enable people to discovery their own solutions through trial-and-error. We have to acknowledge that the good intentions of public officials has caused an unnecessary, international war against black market buyers and sellers, imposed great costs on individuals by imprisoning so many people and by wasting their prime years, has induced an impetus toward more crime, and has forced those in the black market to enforce contracts through needless violence and death.

Given the consequences of the Prohibition Era, the ongoing repercussions of current prohibitions, and the inherent constraints of imperfect government, we must end prohibition and seek other solutions. That's the more practical and beneficial stance for society.
(If anyone disagrees, then they must justify all the unintended consequences. Good luck.)


You must not justify the unintended consequences in order to disagree. It is not the ban on drugs that is the problem, but the ineffective ban on them. What you would justify is many, many more lives destroyed by drugs that have no business existing in the first place. The fact that you are too shortsighted to see that it very much could be controlled better, does not justify your position, its just a cop out, and a ridiculously naive one at that.


Ramp up the effectiveness of the ban, and the consequences become more dire and/or the society becomes imposed under a more authoritarian government.
Acknowledging the limits of human behavior yet superimposing wishful thinking on it (e.g. better prohibition from angelic public officials) fails to alleviate the consequences--it only exacerbates them.

Regarding what I would allegedly justify: I've already dealt with this in detail from pages 1-3 or so.

Most importantly, I'm assuming we want to live in a free, democratic society. I imagine that Saudi Arabia is more effective in prohibiting certain drugs, so would you like Americans to live within a Saudi-esque United States? (Of course not, but you don't seem to realize the constraints of our givens, nor do you seem to realize the implications of accepting a more authoritarian government).

All I'm saying is that after we acknowledge the limits of liberal democracy, the continued susceptibility of some individuals to irresponsibly use drugs, and the consequences of prohibition, then we must stop with the excuses, stop supporting the prohibition, and use more efficient substitutes (legalization, decriminalization, government regulation--but not prohibition).


So the government would be adequate and efficient at regulating heroin, but not banning it. Its a ridiculous notion.

Either the government sucks or it doesnt. Youre saying it does, so it could never regulate something so volatile easily...


Your response belongs in the Accidental Strawmen thread. I'm not going to repeat myself, so if you're really interested in understanding my position, then you'll have to scroll down, drag your pointer to the bottom right, and peruse the previous pages.

Recognizing the limits of liberal democracy does not mean sub-optimal---yet better--substitutes by government should not be used (e.g. regulation).

AAFitz wrote:As far as living like an American vs Saudi-esque, its again ridiculous, because I dont get anywhere near drugs, so I would have nothing to fear about laws governing them.

In other words, you don't care about the consequences that government imposes on your fellow citizens, which is a morally reprehensible position. You're also insincere. Whenever you make any argument favoring government intervention to "help" people, I'll remember this quote of yours.

And it's not like steps toward a more authoritarian government would be magically contained within one sector (drug prohibition), so you should be concerned.

AAFitz wrote:I fully agree the current approach doesnt work, but legalizing them is not a valid approach, simply because the current one doesnt work.

I've addressed this in previous pages.

Also, if X doesn't work, I would suggest using substitutes. You would suggest more X. "It is not the ban on drugs that is the problem, but the ineffective ban on them."

How can you not realize that if something is illegal, one cannot seek redress through the courts regarding contract violations? Do you understand why drug dealers seek substitutes by shooting each other? "The problem is not the ban on drugs." Clearly, it is because the prohibition prevents buyers and sellers on that market from seeking legal redress; therefore, they will seek substitutes.

AAFitz wrote:If we wanted them gone, they would be gone. The main problem is, people dont care about drugs or their affects on people, unless its happening to their own kids...and then its too late.


Opa!, more wishful thinking! Already dealt with that, so direct your attention to my first post, and you'll find yourself in the wrong.

"People don't care about drugs or their affects on people."
No, AAFitz, you don't care about that. Don't mistake yourself for "people" or the presumed "majority." Even if your guess is the primary problem, which it isn't, then you still have yet to recognize the constraints (which have already been mentioned), the fundamental causes (state-mandated prohibition), the consequences, and the failure of "more X" in alleviating the costs.

It is not the ban on drugs that is the problem, but the ineffective ban on them.
This excuse has been used for decades, and the costs of unintended consequences have only become exacerbated. Recall Reagan's War on Drugs.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:42 pm

AAFitz wrote:
betiko wrote:
xeno wrote:I'm cool with it. At the same time I don't have kids that I'm overly protective of so what does my opinion matter. If they started selling heroin at your local cvs house moms all over the us would literally lose their shit


what's the difference, drugs would still be frowned upon by society, and I think your argument doesn't stand as I think kids would be a lot safer. If someone wants to do drugs he will always be able to find a way. Drug wars are a lost cause and this seems like the only solution.

Also, take morocco for example. I know Canabis represents over 10% of it's GNP and it's an underground economy. Wouldn't it be better if the government could manage those profits and reinvest in education, infrastructures or whatever?


You'd have to be on drugs to compare heroin, crack, and meth to canabis.


Or simply uneducated, as most folks are.

Cannibis, in and of itself, is not physically addictive; THC, the "drug" in cannibis, is the only psychotropic "drug" (found to date) that isn't physically addictive. This means you can smoke the stuff forever and not have any physical withdrawals when you stop. Like other substances, however, (including ice cream) THC can be mentally/emotionally (psychologically) addictive - your body may not tell you, "you must smoke more" but because you like the buzz you want to smoke more (or eat more, if you're doing brownies, etc.)

In this regard, THC is actually "safer" than alcohol, because ethyl is physically addictive; and both are far "safer" than heroin, crack, meth, or "legal" oxycontin (codeine, which is an opiate, aka, a heroin derivative.)

NOTE: The discussion of THC/cannibis does NOT include "spice" - cannibis that's been treated with some other drugs to "make it more powerful."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_marijuana_addictive

Note: while "wiki" itself is not an academically accepted source of information because it's not peer reviewed, my information on THC/Cannabis came to me FIRST from a college course in health sciences. I don't have the text anymore to quote it.

Personally, I don't think the gov't should care what a person chooses to put in his or her body. The FDA should stick around to provide information to those who want to know, on what it is they might be about to put in their body.

The "war on drugs" isn't working, other than to be a working excuse for bigger government, more officers, more prisons, and more dollars from fines. We could do the same thing by taxing and regulating, needing less government, less officers, less prisons, and replacing dollars from fines with dollars from taxes.

If one also included an overall law that say doubled the fines/penalties of any criminal act committed while under the influence - whether "prescription" or "over the counter" psychotropic substance, then the gov't would still get some revenue from fines. In other words, make drugs legal, just not let them be an excuse to commit real crimes. Plenty of folks would smoke some weed and never steal to do so, and those who want to inject or snort something? Fine, let them kill themselves, or fine and jail them if they commit a robbery or shoplifting to support the habit or hit someone when they forgot to hand over the keys because they've been using.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby muy_thaiguy on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:50 pm

If you want weed so bad, go to Colorado. Legalized there. Just don't come up to Wyoming afterwards, as the Highway Patrol are really cracking down on that.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:57 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:If you want weed so bad, go to Colorado. Legalized there. Just don't come up to Wyoming afterwards, as the Highway Patrol are really cracking down on that.


Driving to Wyoming having recently smoked weed in Colorado would fall under "driving under the influence" which I agree should remain illegal.

Smoke, sure. Smoke and operate a vehicle? Not any smarter than drinking six cocktails and getting behind the wheel, or taking your rx painkiller and driving.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:05 am

saxitoxin wrote:OK, that's fair. And I agree, after the FDA was abolished, Consumer Reports would probably provide the same testing process, albeit on a voluntary basis and without police power.

Do you also support privatizing food inspection and (restaurant) sanitation compliance?


Sure, I guess that could also work.
Though as a transitory phase for both drugs and the other things the service would probably still have to be provided by the government(just without the enforcement that you can't operate without approval), before sufficient trust can be established in the new firms arising to do this.

I suppose a potential problem is that while services like healthcare and a justice system are provided by the government, privatization of these other areas might lead to the government incurring higher costs in the areas it still manages. Not sure how significant that would be.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby Nola_Lifer on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:58 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:If you want weed so bad, go to Colorado. Legalized there. Just don't come up to Wyoming afterwards, as the Highway Patrol are really cracking down on that.


Driving to Wyoming having recently smoked weed in Colorado would fall under "driving under the influence" which I agree should remain illegal.

Smoke, sure. Smoke and operate a vehicle? Not any smarter than drinking six cocktails and getting behind the wheel, or taking your rx painkiller and driving.


Put this in your pipe and smoke it. :roll: :roll: :roll: Over 15 times the legal limit and still good to drive. :-$

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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby Koganosi on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:01 pm

Man you guys are so far behind. Its already been done mostly in Holland, so we rock!

And making everything legal, just makes the number of users and addicts grow I quess.

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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:05 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:OK, that's fair. And I agree, after the FDA was abolished, Consumer Reports would probably provide the same testing process, albeit on a voluntary basis and without police power.

Do you also support privatizing food inspection and (restaurant) sanitation compliance?


Sure, I guess that could also work.
Though as a transitory phase for both drugs and the other things the service would probably still have to be provided by the government(just without the enforcement that you can't operate without approval), before sufficient trust can be established in the new firms arising to do this.

I suppose a potential problem is that while services like healthcare and a justice system are provided by the government, privatization of these other areas might lead to the government incurring higher costs in the areas it still manages. Not sure how significant that would be.


Which is troublesome since government is averse to reducing costs, becoming more efficient, etc. However, if competition would become more enabled in fulfilling particular roles, then it may not be such a problem (e.g. private security overseeing enforcement of more laws within particular areas, buildings, or maybe even cities.).
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:04 am

You folks are missing a major component in this discussion. If drugs were made fully legal, then companies would be eager to give them away in order to hook young, impressionable individuals or those down and out. Once hooked, they will have a gauranteed profit stream.

That is why most of the seriously addictive drugs must be controlled... that, and in some cases the supply is limited by non-market limits. (true limits to ingredients, etc.) Drugs would not be available to people who need them to fight pain or for other legitimate medical needs, only those wanting a fix and willing to do whatever it takes to get the money.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:21 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:You folks are missing a major component in this discussion. If drugs were made fully legal, then companies would be eager to give them away in order to hook young, impressionable individuals or those down and out. Once hooked, they will have a gauranteed profit stream.

That is why most of the seriously addictive drugs must be controlled... that, and in some cases the supply is limited by non-market limits. (true limits to ingredients, etc.) Drugs would not be available to people who need them to fight pain or for other legitimate medical needs, only those wanting a fix and willing to do whatever it takes to get the money.


How addictive are illegal drugs compared to caffeine, nicotine, chocolate, etc.?

If the addiction rates are similar, then I don't buy your argument.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:43 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:You folks are missing a major component in this discussion. If drugs were made fully legal, then companies would be eager to give them away in order to hook young, impressionable individuals or those down and out. Once hooked, they will have a gauranteed profit stream.

That is why most of the seriously addictive drugs must be controlled... that, and in some cases the supply is limited by non-market limits. (true limits to ingredients, etc.) Drugs would not be available to people who need them to fight pain or for other legitimate medical needs, only those wanting a fix and willing to do whatever it takes to get the money.


How addictive are illegal drugs compared to caffeine, nicotine, chocolate, etc.?

If the addiction rates are similar, then I don't buy your argument.

Only Nicotine comes close.. which is why so many states are successfully suing tobacco companies for medical costs, despite serious limitations to those types of lawsuits already having been installed.

Even so, nicotine is still not as addictive as many of the drugs available today and has much more mild side effects. Plus, tobacco is much more readily available, requires much less processing to use than many of these other drugs.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:47 pm

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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:43 am

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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:28 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:You folks are missing a major component in this discussion. If drugs were made fully legal, then companies would be eager to give them away in order to hook young, impressionable individuals or those down and out. Once hooked, they will have a gauranteed profit stream.

That is why most of the seriously addictive drugs must be controlled... that, and in some cases the supply is limited by non-market limits. (true limits to ingredients, etc.) Drugs would not be available to people who need them to fight pain or for other legitimate medical needs, only those wanting a fix and willing to do whatever it takes to get the money.


How addictive are illegal drugs compared to caffeine, nicotine, chocolate, etc.?

If the addiction rates are similar, then I don't buy your argument.


Player may have a valid argument, except, our country has allowed the exceptions of extremely addictive nicotine and alcohol.

Nicotine is far more addictive than the drugs that were popular in the 60s (Heroin, LSD, Marijuana.) I'm not sure how it would compare to crack, meth, etc. In the 60s, there was a "clinic" near Berkeley that had an extremely high rate to detox addicts, something like a 97% success rate, but when they tried it for smoking, their success rate dropped dramatically (source, information from a then-UC/Berkeley professor, personal friend who liked to discuss that with me when I was trying to quit smoking).

Few would argue that alcohol is addictive and destructive enough to cause many of the same problems that opiates cause (just, usually, a little more slowly.) Hallucinations, dt's, personality changes, depression, nightmares, night sweats, heart failure, it's all there; PLUS with alcohol, abusers get the additional little problems of malnutrition and liver cirrhosis.

I still don't care if someone wants to rot his/her brain and bodyparts with whatever, let them. It's sad for them, but it's their business, not mine. It should only be "society's" business if they use getting their fix as an excuse to commit other crimes, then, lock them away for their crimes- but don't make what they choose to put in their bodies to be a crime.

I disagree that letting more people do what they want drug-wise would limit drug availability to those who want it, not for a high but for pain; higher demand would probably make producing those drugs more profitable so more, not less, would be available.

Hey, our government could take all the "drug war" money they spend and instead use it to start government-run drug factories/hemp farms and use the proceeds to feed the poor and pay off our national debt.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:20 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:You folks are missing a major component in this discussion. If drugs were made fully legal, then companies would be eager to give them away in order to hook young, impressionable individuals or those down and out. Once hooked, they will have a gauranteed profit stream.

That is why most of the seriously addictive drugs must be controlled... that, and in some cases the supply is limited by non-market limits. (true limits to ingredients, etc.) Drugs would not be available to people who need them to fight pain or for other legitimate medical needs, only those wanting a fix and willing to do whatever it takes to get the money.


How addictive are illegal drugs compared to caffeine, nicotine, chocolate, etc.?

If the addiction rates are similar, then I don't buy your argument.


Player may have a valid argument, except, our country has allowed the exceptions of extremely addictive nicotine and alcohol.

Nicotine is far more addictive than the drugs that were popular in the 60s (Heroin, LSD, Marijuana.) I'm not sure how it would compare to crack, meth, etc. In the 60s, there was a "clinic" near Berkeley that had an extremely high rate to detox addicts, something like a 97% success rate, but when they tried it for smoking, their success rate dropped dramatically (source, information from a then-UC/Berkeley professor, personal friend who liked to discuss that with me when I was trying to quit smoking).


I believe your data is actually incorrect or out of date.
Before posting, I tried to find references to the addictive value of nicotine. It was not easy, but there is also a relativity there. When people speak of the addictiveness of nicotine, it is usually in reference to quitting. When they talk about it in reference to Herione and cocaine (skip the marihuana and even LSD references, though.. they operate very differently), it is more in terms of how far down someone will go to keep their addiction. its not quite just a "half full glass/half empty glass" comparison. The problem with heroine is that it is so addictive people will ignore kids, steal, literally kill themselves.. and in much more immediate and demanding fashions that cigarette smokers or other tobacco users (short note.. chewing tobacco is actually supposed to be much more addictive than cigarettes). This is not just because cigarettes are legal and available. Think of what happens when smokers are kept away from cigarettes versus drug addicts of hard drugs who are kept away from them.

stahrgazer wrote:Few would argue that alcohol is addictive and destructive enough to cause many of the same problems that opiates cause (just, usually, a little more slowly.) Hallucinations, dt's, personality changes, depression, nightmares, night sweats, heart failure, it's all there; PLUS with alcohol, abusers get the additional little problems of malnutrition and liver cirrhosis.

Except, unlike heroine an many other drugs, the impacts you describe only happen to some people and often only after extensive use (there is a small percentage who effectively are "born alchoholic" and who will become addicted with the first drink they take, but that is a percentage of the population).\

stahrgazer wrote:I still don't care if someone wants to rot his/her brain and bodyparts with whatever, let them. It's sad for them, but it's their business, not mine. It should only be "society's" business if they use getting their fix as an excuse to commit other crimes, then, lock them away for their crimes- but don't make what they choose to put in their bodies to be a crime.

This is precisely why many drugs are illegal.. because they cause people to become extreme detriments to society.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby Lootifer on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:31 pm

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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:01 am

The Alchian-Allen Theorem (a.k.a. Third Law of Demand)
It states that when a fixed cost is added to substitute goods, the more expensive one becomes relatively less expensive, and so people are likely to increase consumption of the higher quality good. I think the best way to illustrate the theorem is with examples.

When a drug is outlawed, people face a large fixed cost equal to the expected punishment. They not only have to pay higher money prices, but they also pay in the form of a potential prison sentence. Thus, in areas where alcohol is outlawed, people tend to drink either high concentration or high quality alcohol. It’s simply not worth the trouble to smuggle regular beer. Likewise, the THC content of marijuana has increased as more effort is spent trying to eliminate marijuana use. Paradoxically, because of the higher dosages, drug prohibition can actually increase the dangers associated with drug consumption by eliminating the low cost low concentration doses from the market.

http://azmytheconomics.wordpress.com/20 ... n-theorem/
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:16 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:You folks are missing a major component in this discussion. If drugs were made fully legal, then companies would be eager to give them away in order to hook young, impressionable individuals or those down and out. Once hooked, they will have a gauranteed profit stream.

That is why most of the seriously addictive drugs must be controlled... that, and in some cases the supply is limited by non-market limits. (true limits to ingredients, etc.) Drugs would not be available to people who need them to fight pain or for other legitimate medical needs, only those wanting a fix and willing to do whatever it takes to get the money.


Btw. even if this is all true, surely there are better ways to deal with these problems than banning all but a couple random drugs and declaring an incredibly stupid "drug war" on them.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby Lootifer on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:28 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:The Alchian-Allen Theorem (a.k.a. Third Law of Demand)
It states that when a fixed cost is added to substitute goods, the more expensive one becomes relatively less expensive, and so people are likely to increase consumption of the higher quality good. I think the best way to illustrate the theorem is with examples.

When a drug is outlawed, people face a large fixed cost equal to the expected punishment. They not only have to pay higher money prices, but they also pay in the form of a potential prison sentence. Thus, in areas where alcohol is outlawed, people tend to drink either high concentration or high quality alcohol. It’s simply not worth the trouble to smuggle regular beer. Likewise, the THC content of marijuana has increased as more effort is spent trying to eliminate marijuana use. Paradoxically, because of the higher dosages, drug prohibition can actually increase the dangers associated with drug consumption by eliminating the low cost low concentration doses from the market.

http://azmytheconomics.wordpress.com/20 ... n-theorem/

Another good example would be illegal drug vs alcohol substitution.

Drug x (say marijuana) that is a potential substitute for booze is outlawed. Result is likely to be increased alcohol abuse. Another cost that counts on the ledger against the war on drugs/prohibition.
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:54 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:This is precisely why many drugs are illegal.. because they cause people to become extreme detriments to society.


Cars can make some people extreme detriments to society, but cars aren't illegal.

It shouldn't be up to the government to dictate what someone can and cannot put into their own bodies.

The government can analyze, and warn, sure. But leave the, "this is illegal" out of it.

Then, if someone DOES choose to do crime for whatever reason, punish the crime.

I'd bet prisons would be alot less crowded if the only "criminals" were those who committed real crimes, rather than those who were in possession of a substance the government has arbitrarily decided is illegal.

(Cost Effectiveness of Prison) "Substance-involved people have come to compose a large portion of the prison population. Substance use may play a role in the commission of certain crimes: approximately 16 percent of people in state prison and 18 percent of people in federal prison reported committing their crimes to obtain money for drugs.21 Treatment delivered in the community is one of the most cost-effective ways to prevent such crimes and costs approximately $20,000 less than incarceration per person per year.22 A study by the Washington State Institute for Public Policy found that every dollar spent on drug treatment in the community yields over $18 in cost savings related to crime.23 In comparison, prisons only yield $.37 in public safety benefit per dollar spent. Releasing people to supervision and making treatment accessible is an effective way of reducing problematic drug use, reducing crime associated with drug use and reducing the number of people in prison."
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Justice Policy Institute, "How to safely reduce prison populations and support people returning to their communities," (Washington, DC: June 2010), p. 8.
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upl ... eRelease...

(US Drug Prisoners) "The United States leads the world in the number of people incarcerated in federal and state correctional facilities. There are currently more than 2 million people in American prisons or jails. Approximately one-quarter of those people held in U.S. prisons or jails have been convicted of a drug offense. The United States incarcerates more people for drug offenses than any other country. With an estimated 6.8 million Americans struggling with drug abuse or dependence, the growth of the prison population continues to be driven largely by incarceration for drug offenses."
Source:
Justice Policy Institute, "Substance Abuse Treatment and Public Safety," (Washington, DC: January 2008), p. 1.
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upl ... _AC-PS.pdf
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Re: legalizing all drugs

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:54 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:You folks are missing a major component in this discussion. If drugs were made fully legal, then companies would be eager to give them away in order to hook young, impressionable individuals or those down and out. Once hooked, they will have a gauranteed profit stream.

That is why most of the seriously addictive drugs must be controlled... that, and in some cases the supply is limited by non-market limits. (true limits to ingredients, etc.) Drugs would not be available to people who need them to fight pain or for other legitimate medical needs, only those wanting a fix and willing to do whatever it takes to get the money.


Btw. even if this is all true, surely there are better ways to deal with these problems than banning all but a couple random drugs and declaring an incredibly stupid "drug war" on them.
That is an entirely different debate.
I essentially agree, but simply legalizing everything without limits is not the answer, either.

PS did you have the source referring to relative addictive potentials of nicotene versus other drugs? I have, for example seen statistics quoted saying that nicotene is more addictive than heroine. Yet, I have worked alongside highly addicted individuals who were in situations where they could not get nicotine (boats, backcountry, etc.) and not seen the kinds of medical issues we see with heroine addicts.
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