SIX MILLION JEWS

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How many Jews died in the "Holocaust"?

6,000,000 or more
28
72%
5,000,000
1
3%
4,000,000
0
No votes
3,000,000
0
No votes
2,000,000
0
No votes
less than 1,000,000
10
26%
 
Total votes : 39

Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:39 pm

d1g, what role do property rights play in this issue?
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:05 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:2: That 1 thing is the usual, "The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."


Uhhh ... no. That's how Israel presents the Palestinian position, not how I presented it and certainly not how the Palestinians themselves view it. Israel has no legal position so their PR agencies in the U.S. tell people that "this is just a centuries old conflict of he said/she said, what can ya do?"

This is not a centuries old conflict, it is only a few decades old. It is not an existential idea of "was it Palestinian or Jewish land," but a question of property rights to individual lots of land - physical houses, land acreage, etc., which were voided.

    There is a room of records in both Amman and London that contains actual, physical deeds and house titles issued by the British Mandatory government to individual people that still have universal legality. The owners of that land had eminent domain brought down on their property and were kicked out, without compensation, by the Israeli government.

    Do you own a house? If the government showed up tomorrow, told you to move out, that a Ukrainian family needed it, would you want to be paid the full value for your house? Or would you say "sure, no problem - take it!" Palestinians, like most people in the U.S. or France or anywhere in the west, had the bulk of their individual net worth invested in their homes. The entire personal wealth of hundreds of thousands of people was wiped-out, virtually overnight.
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby Viceroy63 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:38 pm

The way I understand the ownership situation is that the British, who owned it all at the time, divided the land fairly between the two peoples of Jewish and Palestinians. The Jews were fine with this and it was the Palestinians who absolutely refused to live with Jewish neighbors and no sooner that the British left the region were the Jewish People attacked by 3 neighboring Muslim, Palestinians neighbors...

"The war was preceded by a period of civil war in the territory of the Mandatory Palestine between Jewish Yishuv forces and Palestinian Arab forces in response to the UN Partition Plan. An alliance of Arab states intervened on the Palestinian side, turning the civil war into a war between sovereign states"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab% ... sraeli_War

In other words they tried to gang up on the Jewish people rather than trying to live peacefully with them for a while and see what happens.

The British did officially own that region and it was theirs to do with what they wanted. And that the UN agreed with the mandate simply made it official. everyone has the right to protect themselves regardless of who they are. That the self protection had to include the taking away of land from the Palestine's was the choice of the Palestinians. No one, even if they believe that they are right should gang up on anyone else. That is just plain wrong and the Palestinian motive is obvious and clear. They simply hate the Jewish people and it does not matter if it makes sense to anyone or not.

The Jewish People are not saints, no one is, but if they have been given something and others want to take it away, then they have every right to fight for what is theirs, anyway they can, especially in view of an overwhelming majority that simply wont rest til they are all wiped out and eliminated from the game. I seriously doubt that the Palestinians would react any differently were their roles reversed. They may even be worse then the Jews as part of the Qur'an involves conquering the world even by way of the sword of war, in the name of Allah. Or so I understand.
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:47 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:The way I understand the ownership situation is that the British, who owned it all at the time, divided the land fairly between the two peoples of Jewish and Palestinians.


LOL
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:13 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:The way I understand the ownership situation is that the British, who owned it all at the time, divided the land fairly


I stopped reading here.

    #1 - The British did not "own it all" ... the British were the local government, just like Illinois is the local government in Carbondale.

    #2 - The British decided they no longer wanted to run the place and assigned part of the land to be governed (not owned) by the Zionists and part to be governed by Palestinians.

    #3 - The British planned to gradually leave but then the Zs launched a wave of suicide bombings. In the worst of these, 100 British women and children were blown to bits at the King David Hotel by Z suicide bombers.

    #4 - The British said, "these people are nuts!" and fled, like the Zs wanted. With British police gone, the Zs sent their militia into Palestinian neighborhoods and said "we need your houses" - and threw the owners out onto the street. Anyone who tried to stay in their house was hacked to death. Then they moved families from Poland and Ukraine into those houses. The entire wealth of hundreds of thousands of families was wiped out overnight.

    #5 - Gen. John Glubb, British-born commander of the Jordanian Army was "WTF?" and threw together an army of 90,000 Arab volunteers to stop the ethnic cleansing (1st Arab-Israeli War). Unfortunately, the Arabs were outnumbered by the 120,000 troops of the Z army, many of whom were fed cocaine before battle to make them ferocious. The Zs then moved into the other half of the land - the half governed by Palestinians - and did the same thing ... seized all the property at bayonet-point, instantly wiping out the wealth of hundreds of thousands of more families.

      The Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharett said, "we have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it."
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby daddy1gringo on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:21 am

saxitoxin wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:2: That 1 thing is the usual, "The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."


Uhhh ... no. That's how Israel presents the Palestinian position, not how I presented it and certainly not how the Palestinians themselves view it. Israel has no legal position so their PR agencies in the U.S. tell people that "this is just a centuries old conflict of he said/she said, what can ya do?"

This is not a centuries old conflict, it is only a few decades old. It is not an existential idea of "was it Palestinian or Jewish land," but a question of property rights to individual lots of land - physical houses, land acreage, etc., which were voided.

    There is a room of records in both Amman and London that contains actual, physical deeds and house titles issued by the British Mandatory government to individual people that still have universal legality. The owners of that land had eminent domain brought down on their property and were kicked out, without compensation, by the Israeli government.

    Do you own a house? If the government showed up tomorrow, told you to move out, that a Ukrainian family needed it, would you want to be paid the full value for your house? Or would you say "sure, no problem - take it!" Palestinians, like most people in the U.S. or France or anywhere in the west, had the bulk of their individual net worth invested in their homes. The entire personal wealth of hundreds of thousands of people was wiped-out, virtually overnight.
Right, that's the slight variation: "I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop." and the other side has their facts and figures to prove their dialectus fizz goop, etc., etc. But once you jettison all the partisan dialectus fizz goop, it's a perfectly equitable plan, like you said.
The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer to the real question.
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:30 am

daddy1gringo wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:2: That 1 thing is the usual, "The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."


Uhhh ... no. That's how Israel presents the Palestinian position, not how I presented it and certainly not how the Palestinians themselves view it. Israel has no legal position so their PR agencies in the U.S. tell people that "this is just a centuries old conflict of he said/she said, what can ya do?"

This is not a centuries old conflict, it is only a few decades old. It is not an existential idea of "was it Palestinian or Jewish land," but a question of property rights to individual lots of land - physical houses, land acreage, etc., which were voided.

    There is a room of records in both Amman and London that contains actual, physical deeds and house titles issued by the British Mandatory government to individual people that still have universal legality. The owners of that land had eminent domain brought down on their property and were kicked out, without compensation, by the Israeli government.

    Do you own a house? If the government showed up tomorrow, told you to move out, that a Ukrainian family needed it, would you want to be paid the full value for your house? Or would you say "sure, no problem - take it!" Palestinians, like most people in the U.S. or France or anywhere in the west, had the bulk of their individual net worth invested in their homes. The entire personal wealth of hundreds of thousands of people was wiped-out, virtually overnight.
Right, that's the slight variation: "I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop." and the other side has their facts and figures to prove their dialectus fizz goop, etc., etc. But once you jettison all the partisan dialectus fizz goop, it's a perfectly equitable plan, like you said.


I'm sorry but you don't understand and are simply out of your depth. This is not a battle of two sides fighting over an historic idea of homeland. The PLO/PLA support property rights of all pre-1900 residents of Palestine, both Jewish and Arab.

There is 99% support of this position. The 1% who don't support it are the Zionist politicos and their constituents - the thousands of Ukrainian meth-heads who showed up in the last few years screaming they were secular Jews and willing to join the IDF if they could get a welfare check (most of whom weren't even circumcised). Every single President since Johnson has switched positions after they've left office to support the Palestinian view - even George Bush).
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:42 pm

I read the article about Bush, but I couldn't confirm that he stated:

"I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."



Anyway, I never knew. It's an interesting turn around.


Sax, do you have a list of the other presidents changing their minds about this issue?
(so that I can easily read them all, instead of spending 20 min googling around).
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:38 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I read the article about Bush, but I couldn't confirm that he stated:

"I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."



Anyway, I never knew. It's an interesting turn around.


Sax, do you have a list of the other presidents changing their minds about this issue?
(so that I can easily read them all, instead of spending 20 min googling around).


The f*ck am I, the reference desk librarian?! OK, I'll look around a bit later. Off the top of my head, Carter said this in his book "Peace Not Apartheid."

Bush, Carter, etc., have to be anti-Palestinian while they're in office because US voters like D1G subscribe to AIPAC misinformation that this is a battle between two ethnic groups, instead of what it is, a battle between the Jews & Arabs who lived there pre-1900 versus the Jews and "Jews" * who moved in last week.

* i.e. If you don't speak Hebrew, have never been inside synagogue, aren't circumcised and your family has lived in eastern Europe for the last 800 years, what "right" do you have to live in Israel over a Palestinian living there right now?
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby Crazy Frog on Thu May 16, 2013 10:07 am

Here is a good answer I found online--->

kismet
Six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis, and this figure comes from the Nazis themselves, who were meticulous about recording their atrocities.

In 1945, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander, anticipated that someday an attempt would be made to recharacterize the Nazi crimes as propaganda and took steps against it:

“ The same day I saw my first horror camp. It was near the town of Gotha. I have never been able to describe my emotional reactions when I first came face to face with indisputable evidence of Nazi brutality and ruthless disregard of every shred of decency. Up to that time I had known about it only generally or through secondary sources. I am certain however, that I have never at any time experienced an equal sense of shock.

I visited every nook and cranny of the camp because I felt it my duty to be in a position from then on to testify at first hand about these things in case there ever grew up at home the belief or assumption that "the stories of Nazi brutality were just propaganda". Some members of the visiting party were unable to go through with the ordeal. I not only did so but as soon as I returned to Patton's headquarters that evening I sent communications to both Washington and London, urging the two governments to send instantly to Germany a random group of newspaper editors and representative groups from the national legislatures. I felt that the evidence should be immediately placed before the American and the British publics in a fashion that would leave no room for cynical doubt."

Denials of the Holocaust have been regularly promoted by various Arab leaders and in various media throughout the Middle East. Newspapers funded by the Saudi Arabian government routinely deny the existence of the Holocaust, or downplay its significance. Individuals from the Syrian government, as well as the Palestinian political group Hamas have recently published Holocaust denial statements.

In August 2002, the Zayed Center for Coordination and Follow-up, an Arab League think-tank whose Chairman, Sultan Bin Zayed Al Nahayan, served as Deputy Prime Minister of the United Arab Emirates, promoted a Holocaust denial symposium in Abu Dhabi. Hamas leaders have also promoted Holocaust denial; Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi held that the Holocaust never occurred, that Zionists were behind the action of Nazis, and that Zionists funded Nazism. A press release by Hamas in April 2000 decried "the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis."

Holocaust denial has also been resisted by prominent intellectual figures in the Arab world; in 2001, an outcry led by Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish, Lebanese writer Elias Khoury and others brought about the cancellation of a conference the Holocaust denial organization Institute for Historical Review had planned to hold in Beirut.

In 2005 the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader, Mohammed Mahdi Akef, denounced what he called "the myth of the Holocaust" in defending Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust.

According to the Associated Press, "Ignorance and even denial of the Holocaust is widespread in Palestinian society
Source(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby Crazy Frog on Thu May 16, 2013 10:10 am

Isee that they have removed the wiki Link or changed it.. here is a Link that is valid at this time... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
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Postby 2dimes on Thu May 16, 2013 11:00 am

Now I agree the Ukrainians are important to the discussion here somewhat but...

They are almost a separate and additional issue that clouds things and another layer that won't be properly resolved. They have created yet another claim, "But I did what was asked, I deserve..."
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 16, 2013 11:24 am

premio53 wrote:The Jews are one of the foundation stones of proof that the Bible is inspired by God. They are a chosen race that that can never be destroyed. It is through them that the Jewish Messiah came into the world 2,000 year ago and in the near future (during the battle of Armageddon) their Messiah whom they rejected the first time will return to save them from extinction.

Jeremiah 31:35-37

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The history of "The Wandering Jew" is one of persecution throughout the church age in country after country. The fact that they have been preserved as a separate race while being scattered around the world and having no country to call their own for 2500 years is beyond human comprehension.

I grew up in the South during the civil rights movement and saw first hand the hatred of the Jewish people. The Ku Klux Klan hated them more than they did the Black race and charged them with trying to destroy the White race through interracial marriages while keeping themselves separate, similar to what Hitler did.

Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.


The religiously overboard are always good for a chuckle.
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Postby 2dimes on Thu May 16, 2013 12:04 pm

Well, it seems odd doesn't it? More than once they have been threatened with extinction.

A group kills 6 million of them. Meticulously records it since they are planning to wipe out every last one. Several decades later people argue about it with some going so far that they say, "6million? That can't be right." all the way down to out right denial.

What can you tell us about some of the much more recent genocides like the Kurds?
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 1:10 pm

The who? The what? Never happened, 2dimes.
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Postby 2dimes on Thu May 16, 2013 1:34 pm

Well yeah. I heard some other guys were killed in that skirmish, don't know any numbers.
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Re:

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 16, 2013 5:19 pm

2dimes wrote:Well, it seems odd doesn't it? More than once they have been threatened with extinction.

A group kills 6 million of them. Meticulously records it since they are planning to wipe out every last one. Several decades later people argue about it with some going so far that they say, "6million? That can't be right." all the way down to out right denial.

What can you tell us about some of the much more recent genocides like the Kurds?


Well, I was in Rwanda near the end of that one, for instance...
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Postby 2dimes on Thu May 16, 2013 11:59 pm

I'm not suggesting your personal knowledge is lacking. I find it strange that so many pretty large scale genocides are seemingly forgotten by society as a whole. Yet so many people keep wanting to discuss Israel. Often either to down play things or exaggerate them.
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Re:

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 17, 2013 4:58 am

2dimes wrote:I'm not suggesting your personal knowledge is lacking. I find it strange that so many pretty large scale genocides are seemingly forgotten by society as a whole. Yet so many people keep wanting to discuss Israel. Often either to down play things or exaggerate them.


Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?
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Re: Re:

Postby Crazy Frog on Fri May 17, 2013 7:54 am

Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:I'm not suggesting your personal knowledge is lacking. I find it strange that so many pretty large scale genocides are seemingly forgotten by society as a whole. Yet so many people keep wanting to discuss Israel. Often either to down play things or exaggerate them.


Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?


This would start to cover the subject... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
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Postby 2dimes on Fri May 17, 2013 8:17 am

Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?


I'm not sure it's possible to discuss genocide in a balanced way. If you found someone who could you would have to make sure no one else could over hear the conversation.

I don't know if I can discuss the holocaust without emotion. I don't have access to absolute facts that I trust completely. What's the real number of Jewish people killed, 6 million even?

I am often surprise by people that have do not even have basic knowledge of many other more recent genocides. They can't be blamed though. No one talks about them.

Bring up something like Pol Pot. I couldn't tell you what country he was in without looking it up. Many people will ask, "Who?" or at best say, " Sounds familiar.."
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Re:

Postby Baron Von PWN on Fri May 17, 2013 11:04 am

2dimes wrote:
Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?


I'm not sure it's possible to discuss genocide in a balanced way. If you found someone who could you would have to make sure no one else could over hear the conversation.

I don't know if I can discuss the holocaust without emotion. I don't have access to absolute facts that I trust completely. What's the real number of Jewish people killed, 6 million even?

I am often surprise by people that have do not even have basic knowledge of many other more recent genocides. They can't be blamed though. No one talks about them.

Bring up something like Pol Pot. I couldn't tell you what country he was in without looking it up. Many people will ask, "Who?" or at best say, " Sounds familiar.."

It was Cambodia.
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby Crazy Frog on Fri May 17, 2013 1:46 pm

i know of some Christians in pakistan that are constant fear of the Muslim rampages... Genocide could happen on any given weekend if the whim strikes... then there is Sudan... oh and we should not forget the Slaughter of the Karen up in Burma...
Genocide is a bleak part of Human Nature.

Hiding your Sins is also a gimme.
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri May 17, 2013 2:21 pm

Six million, five hundred, twenty-five thousand, six hundred Jews were sitting in a tree.
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Re: SIX MILLION JEWS

Postby ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 12:26 pm

incorrect so I deleted it.
Last edited by ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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