Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Community Team, Global Moderators

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Yes- Sally Hemings wasn't free to consent
11
25%
No- I'm ok with sexual slavery
20
45%
Kittens
13
30%
 
Total votes : 44

Re:

Postby john9blue on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:09 pm

Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:hey sym, do you think it's even POSSIBLE for two people that the state recognizes as master and slave to have a mutually consenting sexual relationship?


No, I think that the very nature of slavery rules out the idea of mutual consent when it comes to a master and his slave.


do you think it's possible for an employee to do the same with their boss? even if the boss is extremely demanding because they know the employee badly needs the job?

Symmetry wrote:Now, will you answer my my question about how you define rape?


sure, rape is sexual activity without the consent of both parties.

that definition, like all definitions, is subjective. you know this all too well, and i'm not interesting in dealing with your bullshit morphing of the english language to get words to mean what you think they should mean.

maybe once you realize that the world and the english language aren't black and white, then we can have a meaningful talk.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Re:

Postby john9blue on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:11 pm

Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:This is part of what makes Sally Hemmings truly remarkable and the story of such note, that it WAS an exception and did happen despite all of the "mores" of the time. When you call Jefferson a rapist, you diminish not just Jefferson, but Sally as well. And, I would say many other women as well.

Part of what always distinguishes women of note versus men of "note" historically is how they are able to find ways to break the bounds that very much existed. Ironically, the fact of slavery would have provided Sally far more of a "cover" and protection than if she were white. If she were white, the dalliance would have been looked far more askance thant it was, because a white woman "visiting" Jefferson would have been "noticed", even if done in secret. With Sally, there was no need for any such pretense.


I'm genuinely amazed that you're now arguing that slavery was a good thing. Also, "Hemings".
Oh PLEASE. I specifically did no such thing.


Ironically, the fact of slavery would have provided Sally far more of a "cover" and protection than if she were white.


Care to walk that back?


oh for f*ck's sake LOL.

there is literally no way you are this dense.

you think EVERYTHING that resulted from slavery was bad?

every action that was ever performed due to slavery was morally wrong?

and if we say that any result wasn't morally wrong, then we are condoning slavery as a whole?

i just can't believe the magnitude of your idiocy. you have to be trolling.
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (3)

Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:18 pm

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:This is part of what makes Sally Hemmings truly remarkable and the story of such note, that it WAS an exception and did happen despite all of the "mores" of the time. When you call Jefferson a rapist, you diminish not just Jefferson, but Sally as well. And, I would say many other women as well.

Part of what always distinguishes women of note versus men of "note" historically is how they are able to find ways to break the bounds that very much existed. Ironically, the fact of slavery would have provided Sally far more of a "cover" and protection than if she were white. If she were white, the dalliance would have been looked far more askance thant it was, because a white woman "visiting" Jefferson would have been "noticed", even if done in secret. With Sally, there was no need for any such pretense.


I'm genuinely amazed that you're now arguing that slavery was a good thing. Also, "Hemings".
Oh PLEASE. I specifically did no such thing.


Ironically, the fact of slavery would have provided Sally far more of a "cover" and protection than if she were white.


Care to walk that back?


oh for f*ck's sake LOL.

there is literally no way you are this dense.

you think EVERYTHING that resulted from slavery was bad?

every action that was ever performed due to slavery was morally wrong?

and if we say that any result wasn't morally wrong, then we are condoning slavery as a whole?

i just can't believe the magnitude of your idiocy. you have to be trolling.


I'm not trolling John, I just disagree with you. Calm down a bit, yeah?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:33 am

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:You're just jealous that you're not owned by your wife.


Hmm... I'm not sure it's accurate that I'm not owned by my wife.


Then we must conclude that every time y'all had sex while married, you were raped.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3861
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Re:

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:44 pm

Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:This is part of what makes Sally Hemmings truly remarkable and the story of such note, that it WAS an exception and did happen despite all of the "mores" of the time. When you call Jefferson a rapist, you diminish not just Jefferson, but Sally as well. And, I would say many other women as well.

Part of what always distinguishes women of note versus men of "note" historically is how they are able to find ways to break the bounds that very much existed. Ironically, the fact of slavery would have provided Sally far more of a "cover" and protection than if she were white. If she were white, the dalliance would have been looked far more askance thant it was, because a white woman "visiting" Jefferson would have been "noticed", even if done in secret. With Sally, there was no need for any such pretense.


I'm genuinely amazed that you're now arguing that slavery was a good thing. Also, "Hemings".
Oh PLEASE. I specifically did no such thing.


Ironically, the fact of slavery would have provided Sally far more of a "cover" and protection than if she were white.


Care to walk that back?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!Now you are the one being truly objectionable.


Had you bothered to quote the entire bit, you could not honestly say I was claiming slavery was a good thing. Given the conditions of the time, given that particular master(and some others, I will add), some black slaves did fare better than free blacks. Saying that slavery was not in all cases as harsh as you wish to pretend is not in any way "endorsing" slavery or saying slavery was truly a good thing.

See, unlike you, I can recognize that evil happens not just among henious people without morals, but also by generally good people who have good intentions but just don't take the time to fully understand OR who are simply themselves trapped by their society and thus not able to change.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:08 pm

There are records that Jefferson gave Hemmings an allowance and paid a very high price for her and her brothers tutoring.

I thought the secret to slavery was refusing the slave an education?
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 2146
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 90
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Challenge Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (12)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:14 pm

Symmetry wrote:If you want me to argue in line with your agenda, you'll be disappointed. Nevertheless, in your scenario, do you thinks she was free?

Too bad, because my "agenda" is nothing more or less than truth and real understanding of history as opposed to your pretense of passing judgement without really bothering with more than the most superificial of survey of terms.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:19 pm

Phatscotty wrote:There are records that Jefferson gave Hemmings an allowance and paid a very high price for her and her brothers tutoring.

I thought the secret to slavery was refusing the slave an education?

No,not always, even in US history. In fact some slaves received training, education and/or developed trades with the full blessing of their masters.. increased their valued, among other things.

However, it also led to them being treated better and no longer wanting to work in the fields. It was the plantation owners, particularly the larger ones, that felt they needed slave labor to make a profit competitively... and that strove to keep the slaves "in their place" to keep that system. Of course, they had plenty of justifications, but even in the US, slavery took many forms.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:10 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:If you want me to argue in line with your agenda, you'll be disappointed. Nevertheless, in your scenario, do you thinks she was free?

Too bad, because my "agenda" is nothing more or less than truth and real understanding of history as opposed to your pretense of passing judgement without really bothering with more than the most superificial of survey of terms.


So, do think she was free? I'd say that was pretty key to her situation.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:48 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I thought the secret to slavery was refusing the slave an education?


Not really, dude.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re:

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:56 pm

Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:If you want me to argue in line with your agenda, you'll be disappointed. Nevertheless, in your scenario, do you thinks she was free?

Too bad, because my "agenda" is nothing more or less than truth and real understanding of history as opposed to your pretense of passing judgement without really bothering with more than the most superificial of survey of terms.


So, do think she was free? I'd say that was pretty key to her situation.

No, there is a LOT of grey area in between. In fact, as I said before NO woman of that time was truly "free" as you seem to think, and, frankly, neither were many men. THAT is the crux of it.

We are lucky to be born into an age and place where we really do have freedom, but even so, many of our choices are subscribed. Some by merit, which most would say are irrelevant to this discussion, but many are factors of birth and position. You assume that there are only 2 options, basically slavery or free. The reality for most, even today is much, much, much more complex than that.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:51 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:If you want me to argue in line with your agenda, you'll be disappointed. Nevertheless, in your scenario, do you thinks she was free?

Too bad, because my "agenda" is nothing more or less than truth and real understanding of history as opposed to your pretense of passing judgement without really bothering with more than the most superificial of survey of terms.


So, do think she was free? I'd say that was pretty key to her situation.

No, there is a LOT of grey area in between. In fact, as I said before NO woman of that time was truly "free" as you seem to think, and, frankly, neither were many men. THAT is the crux of it.

We are lucky to be born into an age and place where we really do have freedom, but even so, many of our choices are subscribed. Some by merit, which most would say are irrelevant to this discussion, but many are factors of birth and position. You assume that there are only 2 options, basically slavery or free. The reality for most, even today is much, much, much more complex than that.


You've equaled the conditions of slaves with those of free women several times in this thread, do you truly not see a difference?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re:

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:03 am

Symmetry wrote:

You've equaled the conditions of slaves with those of free women several times in this thread, do you truly not see a difference?

Probably better than you. I ALSO understand the difference between lliving in the 1700's and 2000's, something you clearly do not.

The point here is not whether Jefferson deserves sainthood for his actions. Of course, he does not. The question is whether his actions merit the term "rapist", a crime on the par with murder when it comes to penalties. I have no idea why you think there is some gain in labeling accomplished people from the past with derogatory labels, but I have been hearing this garbage all my life, AND I have heard the contrary arguments. Your "point" is nothing more than back-handed justification and anger. It is not reality, nor truth.

Keep believing that condemning others unreasonably makes you a better person, I won't.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Postby Symmetry on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:18 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:

You've equaled the conditions of slaves with those of free women several times in this thread, do you truly not see a difference?

Probably better than you. I ALSO understand the difference between lliving in the 1700's and 2000's, something you clearly do not.

The point here is not whether Jefferson deserves sainthood for his actions. Of course, he does not. The question is whether his actions merit the term "rapist", a crime on the par with murder when it comes to penalties. I have no idea why you think there is some gain in labeling accomplished people from the past with derogatory labels, but I have been hearing this garbage all my life, AND I have heard the contrary arguments. Your "point" is nothing more than back-handed justification and anger. It is not reality, nor truth.

Keep believing that condemning others unreasonably makes you a better person, I won't.


I don't understand this line of thinking. You've fallen back on the idea that on the idea that things cannot be judged morally right or wrong, or even criminal if they occurred in the past. I thought we'd dismissed that line of argument.

I don't think you've shown any evidence to suggest that Hemings was free to consent, so I'm baffled as to why you think sex without free consent is not rape.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:00 am

I' confess to being slightly baffled as to why the other thread was locked. Perhaps I'll resurrect this thread instead.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:18 am

Symmetry wrote:I' confess to being slightly baffled as to why the other thread was locked.


Because the thread that billy07's multi created was locked?

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=203287#p4446228
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:20 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I' confess to being slightly baffled as to why the other thread was locked.


Because the thread that billy07's multi created was locked?

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=203287#p4446228


Is Thomas Jefferson an equivalent of the Prophet now?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:22 am

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I' confess to being slightly baffled as to why the other thread was locked.


Because the thread that billy07's multi created was locked?

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=203287#p4446228


Is Thomas Jefferson an equivalent of the Prophet now?


I would think not. I suppose some hardcore folks would think Jefferson was a prophet, although many historians think he was agnostic (or atheist). I don't pretend to know why the thread was locked (or why you created the thread in the first place), I was just offering a theory. Your thread looked like a parody thread of a thread that was locked, so I guess the moderators assumed it was a safe bet to lock it. Plus you have this thread.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:33 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I' confess to being slightly baffled as to why the other thread was locked.


Because the thread that billy07's multi created was locked?

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=203287#p4446228


Is Thomas Jefferson an equivalent of the Prophet now?


I would think not. I suppose some hardcore folks would think Jefferson was a prophet, although many historians think he was agnostic (or atheist). I don't pretend to know why the thread was locked (or why you created the thread in the first place), I was just offering a theory. Your thread looked like a parody thread of a thread that was locked, so I guess the moderators assumed it was a safe bet to lock it. Plus you have this thread.


Symmetry wrote:it's a parody thread.


Well, that was on the first page, but hey, what can you do?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Re:

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:34 am

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:hey sym, do you think it's even POSSIBLE for two people that the state recognizes as master and slave to have a mutually consenting sexual relationship?


No, I think that the very nature of slavery rules out the idea of mutual consent when it comes to a master and his slave.

Except, that is ONLY true when freedom is actually a viable alternative. For women, not just black women, that has almost NEVER existed.

This changes the real claim to "all women have been raped"... and, by extension "all men who engage in sex are rapists"

There is some truth in that, but the larger picture is far more complicated.

Also, you ignore the extreme effort required for someone to step fully outside their culture. Ironically, Jefferson actually did that to a large point in keeping Sally has he did. He COULD have simply "had his way" -- given her nothing, sold off her children. He would have been fully within his legal and societal rights to have done that. Many in his time and day did. However, he, instead, treated Sally very much like a GOOD man of that day might treat a well-loved and treated wife.

Your idea that she should have just been freed is similarly based on a false idea that you want to perpetuate. Think of the recent movie "12 years a slave". Black MEN of that day had little real protection, were not really and truly free, even when they were successful. WHITE women, also had little privilage we now associate with freedom, really had little freedom. A black women would have the worst of both. As Jefferson's slave, she was protected. No other master could claim her. She could not be abused unless Jefferson agreed, and he obviously did not. (and please note that white women could be legally abused!!).

When you dismiss this as rape, you denegrate both Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson. You ignore history and make pretense that doesn't exist.

Frankly, your idea of "freedom" often doesn't even really exist for women today... not in the way you seem to imply. I know plenty of women who would willingly trade positions with Sally! She had access to travel, fine clothing, knowledge and was secure in knowing that her children were well provided for.

Also, saying that this particular instance was not rape is definitely NOT the same as saying that slavery was good or that all master-slave relationships were OK. You cannot judge everything by titles and labels. You have to look at each situation for what it is, in the context of what is possible.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:30 pm

I don't dismiss this as rape, I condemn it as such.

I don't think a 14 year old girl held as a slave in a man's house has freedom or ability to consent to sex with her slave master. That constitutes rape. Would you consider it rape if it had happened more recently?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:06 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I don't dismiss this as rape, I condemn it as such.

I don't think a 14 year old girl held as a slave in a man's house has freedom or ability to consent to sex with her slave master. That constitutes rape. Would you consider it rape if it had happened more recently?


To be sure it's an interesting question. I'm slightly more interested, though, in why Symmetry is so much more plused by this than the current members of the Hemings family themselves, like Shay Banks-Young, etc.


"plused"?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:11 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I don't dismiss this as rape, I condemn it as such.

I don't think a 14 year old girl held as a slave in a man's house has freedom or ability to consent to sex with her slave master. That constitutes rape. Would you consider it rape if it had happened more recently?


To be sure it's an interesting question. I'm slightly more interested, though, in why Symmetry is so much more plused by this than the current members of the Hemings family themselves, like Shay Banks-Young, etc.


"plused"?


Sorry, I deleted my post because - on reflection - I decided I wasn't really all that interested after all.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class saxitoxin
 
Posts: 1753
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:01 am
Location: the American Riviera
Medals: 12
Standard Achievement (3) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:13 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:I don't dismiss this as rape, I condemn it as such.

I don't think a 14 year old girl held as a slave in a man's house has freedom or ability to consent to sex with her slave master. That constitutes rape. Would you consider it rape if it had happened more recently?


To be sure it's an interesting question. I'm slightly more interested, though, in why Symmetry is so much more plused by this than the current members of the Hemings family themselves, like Shay Banks-Young, etc.


"plused"?


Sorry, I deleted my post because - on reflection - I decided I wasn't really all that interested after all.


Sure
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

PreviousNext

Return to Babble-On Five

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DaGip

Login