Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

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Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

stahrgazer wrote:In fact, "reliance on talking points rather than full facts," is probably a fundamental flaw in the Republican Party.


PLAYER57832 wrote:I blame both parties, but this thread is about the Republicans.


So... we're doing a new topic (fair and balanced!)

Item #1: Organizing for Action

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... n/1983287/

Organizing for Action is a non-partisan organization according to its executive director, Mr. Jon Carson).

Despite being "nonpartisan" it uses as its logo (for the "O") the Obama campaign's graphic. Additionally, I have received emails from Organizing for Action. I did not sign up for those messages, so how did I get them? Well, I wrote a letter to President Obama about 3 years ago and ended up on his campaign's email list. So clearly the OFA team has my email from that.

In any event, one of the fundamental flaws of the Democratic Party is that it lies.

As with the "Fundamental Flaws with the Republican Party" thread, please keep all references to the flaws of the other party out of this thread. Thanks.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:10 am




--Andy
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:30 am

2. Trying to Deep-Six Obamacare

But now that they feel its future is protected and it’s safe from repeal, Democrats are becoming more vocal about parts of the law that they want changed or eliminated — even kids’ dental coverage. Four Senate Democrats — Sens. Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken of Minnesota, Bob Casey of Pennsylvania and Joe Donnelly of Indiana — are co-sponsoring a Republican bill to repeal the law’s medical-device tax. Ten House Democrats are co-sponsoring a bill to repeal the law’s Independent Payment Advisory Board, a controversial panel that is designed to keep Medicare spending in check.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/a ... 88717.html


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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:20 am

I wonder if there are any big medical device companies in Minnesota, Pennsylvania, or Indiana.

Minnesota - Meditronic Inc.
Pennsylvania - AmerisourceBergen Corporation
Indiana - Eli Lilly

PLAYER57832 wrote:More correctly, the Republicans want to cut anything that benefits average Americans, but not the things that benefit their big business cronies... and they will do this while proclaiming "family values" and "low taxes"... never mind that its their policies that turned our country into a deficit hog, at the expense of our futures.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:55 am

saxitoxin wrote:2. Trying to Deep-Six Obamacare

But now that they feel its future is protected and it’s safe from repeal, Democrats are becoming more vocal about parts of the law that they want changed or eliminated — even kids’ dental coverage. Four Senate Democrats — Sens. Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken of Minnesota, Bob Casey of Pennsylvania and Joe Donnelly of Indiana — are co-sponsoring a Republican bill to repeal the law’s medical-device tax. Ten House Democrats are co-sponsoring a bill to repeal the law’s Independent Payment Advisory Board, a controversial panel that is designed to keep Medicare spending in check.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/a ... 88717.html



Who doesn't like political compromise?
[/tongue-in-cheek]

This is one of the main problems with any position supporting public policy X. Public policies must go through this political process--where exemptions are made and the reasonable parts of the policy are resisted and sometimes removed (e.g. that advisory board, that medical-device tax).

This is one of many avenues where the favored policies of well-intended voters lead to bad outcomes.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby Night Strike on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:46 pm

Rep John Fleming R-LA: "President to House GOP: federal government is not a family; balancing budget not important"
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:52 pm

thegreekdog wrote:In any event, one of the fundamental flaws of the Democratic Party is that it lies.

As with the "Fundamental Flaws with the Republican Party" thread, please keep all references to the flaws of the other party out of this thread. Thanks.


People did not keep references to the flaws of the other party out of that thread.

We'll agree that a fundamental flaw with both the Dems and the Reps is that they lie.

As to your emails and such:
In legalities, that organization you are getting emails from is not a political party so it's not a lie to say they are not. It is fed emails from all over the dem party, no different than me sending a note to my Republican representatives and getting tons of pamphlets from Republican folks who aren't even in my district. A better comparison may be the info I get from "anti choice" folks even though I've never written them and they themselves are not a political party.

FURTHER.

If you want information that belongs in another thread to stay only in that thread, then you, yourself, should not be bringing another person's (my) quotes from that thread to this thread.

In that, you're demonstrating a frequent fundamental flaw found in that other party: Hypocrisy.
Last edited by stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:56 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:In any event, one of the fundamental flaws of the Democratic Party is that it lies.

As with the "Fundamental Flaws with the Republican Party" thread, please keep all references to the flaws of the other party out of this thread. Thanks.


People did not keep references to the flaws of the other party out of that thread.

We'll agree that a fundamental flaw with both the Dems and the Reps is that they lie.

As to your emails and such:
In legalities, that organization you are getting emails from is not a political party so it's not a lie to say they are not. It is fed emails from all over the dem party, no different than me sending a note to my Republican representatives and getting tons of pamphlets from Republican folks who aren't even in my district. A better comparison may be the info I get from "anti choice" folks even though I've never written them and they themselves are not a political party.


The term "partisan" is defined as follows: "a firm adherent to a party, faction, cause, or person; especially: one exhibiting blind, prejudiced and unreasoning allegiance."

I agree that your pro life (oh, sorry, anti-choice) emails are similar, but those emails are also partisan. Do your pro life (I mean, anti-choice) emails also have a logo of Mitt Romney's campaign?
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:57 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
The term "partisan" is defined as follows: "a firm adherent to a party, faction, cause, or person; especially: one exhibiting blind, prejudiced and unreasoning allegiance."

I agree that your pro life (oh, sorry, anti-choice) emails are similar, but those emails are also partisan. Do your pro life (I mean, anti-choice) emails also have a logo of Mitt Romney's campaign?


Some had Romney, prior to that, some had McCain/Palin


"blind, prejudiced, and unreasoning allegiance" are subjective. Those who agree with whatever the organization (any organization) spouts are not likely to agree the adherence is blind, prejudice, or unreasoning.

As an example, as I've told you before, I'm a Republican. As you can see, though, I'm hardly demonstrating "firm adherence" to the party line. I agree with some things and not others.

(I do NOT happen to agree that taking away a woman's right to choose what she does with her body and something that cannot function on its own outside of her own body should be a part of any political party's agenda.)
Last edited by stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:00 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:In any event, one of the fundamental flaws of the Democratic Party is that it lies.

As with the "Fundamental Flaws with the Republican Party" thread, please keep all references to the flaws of the other party out of this thread. Thanks.


People did not keep references to the flaws of the other party out of that thread.

We'll agree that a fundamental flaw with both the Dems and the Reps is that they lie.

As to your emails and such:
In legalities, that organization you are getting emails from is not a political party so it's not a lie to say they are not. It is fed emails from all over the dem party, no different than me sending a note to my Republican representatives and getting tons of pamphlets from Republican folks who aren't even in my district. A better comparison may be the info I get from "anti choice" folks even though I've never written them and they themselves are not a political party.


The term "partisan" is defined as follows: "a firm adherent to a party, faction, cause, or person; especially: one exhibiting blind, prejudiced and unreasoning allegiance."

I agree that your pro life (oh, sorry, anti-choice) emails are similar, but those emails are also partisan. Do your pro life (I mean, anti-choice) emails also have a logo of Mitt Romney's campaign?


Some had Romney, prior to that, some had McCain/Palin


Then they are partisan. Why do you think OFA is nonpartisan?

Issue advertisements are also partisan (for the most part) because they take one issue and support or denigrate that issue which happens to be the opposite of whatever the opposing candidate supports or opposes.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:03 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Then they are partisan. Why do you think OFA is nonpartisan?



Did I say that? Um. No. I didn't.

What I was trying to imply is that just because an organization is "partisan" to a political party, does not mean the Political Party itself, lied.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:11 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Then they are partisan. Why do you think OFA is nonpartisan?



Did I say that? Um. No. I didn't.

What I was trying to imply is that just because an organization is "partisan" to a political party, does not mean the Political Party itself, lied.


Ah, okay.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby Crazyirishman on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:22 pm

The fundamental flaw lies within the reality that we have parties, all they do is divide people.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:28 am

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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:16 pm

Crazyirishman wrote:The fundamental flaw lies within the reality that we have parties, all they do is divide people.


People are already divided. There's a biblical story or two about why (Isaac and Abraham, Babylon, etc.)
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:23 pm

ah.. just ready to shut down and saw this thread. Will post later, if its still up (but may have to be next week.. I am going to be pretty busy in the next few days).
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby tzor on Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:38 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Item #1: Organizing for Action


So why is O for A a "fundamental flaw?"

(There is a minor flaw; you really need not to recycle acronyms; Obama's original campaign machine was "Organizing for America." It's way too easy to get the two confused and thus people would assume that this is Obama's election/reelection organization. But that's probably on purpose. Still if I had a dine for every reporter who has made this mistake and called it "America" I would have enough money to ... well ride the subway at least, perhaps get a train ride into the city off peak.)
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:49 am

tzor wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Item #1: Organizing for Action


So why is O for A a "fundamental flaw?"

(There is a minor flaw; you really need not to recycle acronyms; Obama's original campaign machine was "Organizing for America." It's way too easy to get the two confused and thus people would assume that this is Obama's election/reelection organization. But that's probably on purpose. Still if I had a dine for every reporter who has made this mistake and called it "America" I would have enough money to ... well ride the subway at least, perhaps get a train ride into the city off peak.)


What?
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby tzor on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:56 am

If the thread is "Fundamental Flaws" you need to actually list "flaws" ... as in things that hinder them from getting elections. O for A is pretty effective at getting that uniform message across; I can't see how it is a flaw.

Apparently I was right to be confused; Organizing for America became Organizing for Action. But if Organizing for America was founded by the Democratic National Committee, how can the comical mouth of Sauron (aka the Jay Carney Show) claim that this group is "independent?" (Oh that's right, because he lies all the time, but this is not "Fundamental Flaws of the White House" so I'll let that slide.)
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby spurgistan on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:07 am

Night Strike wrote:Rep John Fleming R-LA: "President to House GOP: federal government is not a family; balancing budget not important"


The first of those two sentences is objectively true. The second is a matter of opinion, though I would add the words "right now, while we're still barely teetering on the brink of recession" to the end.
Mr_Adams wrote:You, sir, are an idiot.


Timminz wrote:By that logic, you eat babies.
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:56 am

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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:58 am

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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:16 am

thegreekdog wrote:I wonder if there are any big medical device companies in Minnesota, Pennsylvania, or Indiana.

Minnesota - Meditronic Inc.
Pennsylvania - AmerisourceBergen Corporation
Indiana - Eli Lilly

PLAYER57832 wrote:More correctly, the Republicans want to cut anything that benefits average Americans, but not the things that benefit their big business cronies... and they will do this while proclaiming "family values" and "low taxes"... never mind that its their policies that turned our country into a deficit hog, at the expense of our futures.

Your point?
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:18 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:2. Trying to Deep-Six Obamacare

But now that they feel its future is protected and it’s safe from repeal, Democrats are becoming more vocal about parts of the law that they want changed or eliminated — even kids’ dental coverage. Four Senate Democrats — Sens. Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken of Minnesota, Bob Casey of Pennsylvania and Joe Donnelly of Indiana — are co-sponsoring a Republican bill to repeal the law’s medical-device tax. Ten House Democrats are co-sponsoring a bill to repeal the law’s Independent Payment Advisory Board, a controversial panel that is designed to keep Medicare spending in check.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/a ... 88717.html



Who doesn't like political compromise?
[/tongue-in-cheek]

This is one of the main problems with any position supporting public policy X. Public policies must go through this political process--where exemptions are made and the reasonable parts of the policy are resisted and sometimes removed (e.g. that advisory board, that medical-device tax).

This is one of many avenues where the favored policies of well-intended voters lead to bad outcomes.

So, according to you, the fact that Democrats are pushing for things that people want is just inherently bad? Or what is it you are trying to say?
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Re: Fundamental Flaws with the Democratic Party

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:27 am

The fundamental flaw of the Democratic Party is that they are, like Republicans, way too beholden to big donors. Whenever the focus is on primarily money, then its easy to forget the purpose of that money, of government and to ignore what really needs to be done.


Another flaw is that while there was a time when the Democrats sort of represented the party of average people, protecting the base of this country, they have allowed themselves to be silent on too many issues.

They have allowed Republicans to literally change the definitions of words, to change how things are even understand. Instead of saying that denying Homosexuals basic rights is oppressing people who don't think the same, they allow the Republicans to term it "family values."

Similar, Abortion became "choice" even though NO ONE (sane) really and truly "jsut choooses" to have an abortion. As long as the pretense is put forward, folks don't have to acknowledge that there are real and true reasons why some children are just better off not being born... under ANY religious belief and that sometimes "advanced medical care" doesn't really mean "advanced life" , but means that man instead of God is deciding that these children simply "must" live... regardless of what that "life" entails.

Democrats have specifically NOT Pushed for various environmental protections that we ened to have ANY future. And have let Republicans gut our previously mostly wonderful educational system (particularly university system) in favor of a system that boosts the worst schools to barely OK, but keeps the rest down as well.


There is more, but the flaws of the Democratic Party are too many to list in one thread, pretty much like the flaws in the Republicans are too many.
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