Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:46 am

I love how she doesn't think her audience can count to 152.
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:55 am

Army of GOD wrote:I love how she doesn't think her audience can count to 152.


That annoyed me as well, but was done to prove the point. The point being that it would have been soooo much better if he had killed 20 kids instead of 50 (or whatever).
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:01 am

thegreekdog wrote: If the NRA were actually an organization that was supportive of gun owners (rather than gun manufacturers), it would be indifferent to the Assault Weapons Ban.

While the NRA no longer supports gun owners, it also doesn't support gun manufacturers. If anything, the opposite is true. There are more than a few cases where manufacturers actually are not in favor of NRA policies, but won't say anything because the threat of a boycott is just too serious.

(aka Smith and Wesson).
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:28 am

You raised some good arguments in this post, but I this is the only part that is really in contention.
thegreekdog wrote:

The CDC did not find sufficient evidence to determine if the original Assault Weapons Ban was effective.

Did you know that the main reason there is no evidence is that the NRA put pressure on the CDC. Officially, they did not, but…

thegreekdog wrote:


In sum, both sides are stupid.

LOL.. agreed.

I have had the opportunity to have some serious discussions lately with folks who are in places to make some changes. One thing I pointed out is that as long as the debate is “my child’s safety versus your ‘right’ to have a gun”, the “mom” side wins. The NRA no longer represents most real gun owners. Even so, most do join for a variety of reasons, most particularly because they tend to have the clubs where one can shoot, hold competitions, etc. Some very much buy into the “domino” type argument (if they take one, they will take them all….).

Anyway, I think that unless we want guns to be made illegal, we need to start doing a few unconventional things, like bringing shooting sports back into schools. The old “eddie Eagle” programs did not work, because they did not talk the real psychology of children into account. Sorry, but most 5-6 year olds, never mind 3 year olds really don’t understand that injuries and death are permanent, often just don’t have the self control to resist things they really want (aka the marshmallow test). Safety for young kids means keeping them away from guns except under very, very, VERY close supervision (I am OK with having many 5 year olds learn B.B. gun shooting on a one-one basis, but am with those who reject the idea that 4-5 year olds are OK out shooting deer, as they now can in PA). However, once kids get older, then safety involves allowing kids to learn to shoot in controlled situations, associating guns with sports and not gangs and crimes only. I realize that is an unconventional view, but I do hold to it.

I do take exception to one point you rejected. I think paying much greater attention to mental health IS very much a big aspect of this. I don’t look at that from the punitive end, though, because it’s a failed game. We cannot predict who will and will not harm others reliably, so saying (just as an example) anyone diagnosed with xyz should not be able to own a gun is ineffective. Having more community based mental health services, offering easier access to services that are available and tracking the results of various programs to ensure we are promoting the things that work and doing away with the things that do not.. that is what we need.

On the other hand, saying anyone convicted of using a gun inappropriately should not be allowed to own one.. AND enforcing that rule in a real way is reasonable. Domestic violence, animal abuse and suicide attempts are all situations that probably ought to have more attention, where people convicted of those crimes ought to truly be prohibited from buying guns. Someone convicted of embezzling.. maybe not.
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:31 am

warmonger1981 wrote:Government profiles for political gain or government security. Pic a topic and manipulate public opinion to swing in a favorable direction. If the government speeks it is like a pimp to a hooker. Rarely do they tell the truth or sincerely care for the well beings of people. Self preservation is all the government cares about. not any of us.

OH BULL.

Claiming that the government is some unified force that works against average people is the oldest and stupidest game in the book. We DO live in a democracy (OK -- Republic), though plenty seem intent on destroying that.

Its not "the government" that fights for all that, its individuals and groups of individuals who will benefit, particularly corporations and lobbiests (many of whom are corporations in essence if not in reality).

How about coming up with some real, workable solutions instead of just throwing out "gov'ment bad... erp".
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:55 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:Government profiles for political gain or government security. Pic a topic and manipulate public opinion to swing in a favorable direction. If the government speeks it is like a pimp to a hooker. Rarely do they tell the truth or sincerely care for the well beings of people. Self preservation is all the government cares about. not any of us.

OH BULL.

Claiming that the government is some unified force that works against average people is the oldest and stupidest game in the book. We DO live in a democracy (OK -- Republic), though plenty seem intent on destroying that.

Its not "the government" that fights for all that, its individuals and groups of individuals who will benefit, particularly corporations and lobbiests (many of whom are corporations in essence if not in reality).

How about coming up with some real, workable solutions instead of just throwing out "gov'ment bad... erp".


Let's say that both of your hands are infected with a flesh-eating disease. Usually, people will say, "well, let's cut off the right one, but not the left one because that one is necessary." Those people unsurprisingly die.
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:13 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Did you know that the main reason there is no evidence is that the NRA put pressure on the CDC. Officially, they did not, but…


Provide a link or something. Otherwise, this can be disregarded with prejudice.

PLAYER57832 wrote:I do take exception to one point you rejected.


I didn't reject mental health issues; I merely noted that others had rejected it. You know what all those mass murderers had in common? They had guns, they wanted attention and they had mental health issues. So far our government and the media has concentrated on the first issue and not the second two.
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:57 pm

Player it is the government that is ultimately unified under multiple agencies ultimately against the will of most people. Why then is this country becoming more devided? You do understand that corporations are for the most part our government run through lobbyists. If this country was for the people then the tax code would be different or the Fed would be audited. Or maybe get rid of the Fed since every American is a slave to them. Why do we print our own money give it to the Fed then they give it back with interest? There is not enough cash to pay all debts. Print the money but now inflation hits. Pretty basic stuff but no one in government cares enough to fix the problem. Fractional banking should be done away with
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby AAFitz on Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:59 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Very impassioned argument for what will be a very ineffective law.

She suggests, for example, that the Sandy Hook massacre was effective because the Assault Weapons Ban was no longer law. This is a dangerous suggestion to make.


I consider it a more dangerous to not accept it was actually, possibly the truth.
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Re: Rachel Maddow segment on the Sandy Hook massacre

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:32 pm

AAFitz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Very impassioned argument for what will be a very ineffective law.

She suggests, for example, that the Sandy Hook massacre was effective because the Assault Weapons Ban was no longer law. This is a dangerous suggestion to make.


I consider it a more dangerous to not accept it was actually, possibly the truth.


Watch the video again. Count how many times the guy had to reload under the "Assault Weapons Ban" scenario.

Then realize that Maddow is not just talking favorably about the Assault Weapons Ban, she is indicating that the Assault Weapons Ban is NECESSARY for something like Sandy Hook to not happen again. That's ridiculous for the reasons laid out in my lengthy post on page one. So... do you have an alternative explanation? Are you confident that the Sandy Hook guy would not have used the same weapon that looked less scary? I mean, because that's what the Assault Weapons Ban actually bans: weapons that look scary. Anyway, go read my lengthy post and come back.
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