Taking of public property by private entities

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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:01 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I still don't understand what the concern is. The land was owned by private individuals. The government purchased the land, but not the mineral rights, reserving those to the original owners. The original owners could get the minerals so long as they didn't overly disturb the land.

Neither is this a Republican/Democrat thing either considering this has been around since 1981. I mean we've had three going on four Democratic administrations. You people are whackjobs sometimes (e.g. Player and oVo in this thread).

Accessing the minerals in this instance is so intrusive it prohibits surface uses for which the land was purchased.

Furthermore, Deep Hydraulic Fracking only started in the past few years... and uh, care to guess who was president in 1981? Per the "Democratic" bit, it sounds like you are trying to buy into this "you are either Republican or a Democrat" garbage. That is true in voting for the president and higher level offices, but not much beyond that.
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:38 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
oVo wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:The Forest Service doesn't really care about the environment.

Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in this statement.

How about the taking of private property (people's homes) using eminent domain
then handing the properties over to developers, as was done in New Jersey during
the Bush administration? The landowners fought this acquisition of their homes all
the way to the Supreme Court, where a close vote gave them the final rodgering
before officially evicting them from their homes.

Eminent Domain was never intended or designed to acquire property for commercial
developers in the US, but this unprecedented action in New Jersey was upheld by the
highest court in the land. The entire situation was created by a developer's greed and
not the actual needs of the local community. Obviously the homeowners couldn't match
the political contributions of the wolf at their door and it helps to have friends in high
places.

Key words there "Bush administration".


So the Executive ordered this to occur?


And are you quite sure this was the Forest Service that did this?


I'm just wondering if you'd care to explain (1) how the Bush administration swayed the Supreme Court into ruling in favor of NJ and the developers, and (2) how the Bush administration is involved in the OP, and (3) what exactly was the role of the FS in all of this...
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:48 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I still don't understand what the concern is. The land was owned by private individuals. The government purchased the land, but not the mineral rights, reserving those to the original owners. The original owners could get the minerals so long as they didn't overly disturb the land.

Neither is this a Republican/Democrat thing either considering this has been around since 1981. I mean we've had three going on four Democratic administrations. You people are whackjobs sometimes (e.g. Player and oVo in this thread).

Accessing the minerals in this instance is so intrusive it prohibits surface uses for which the land was purchased.

Furthermore, Deep Hydraulic Fracking only started in the past few years... and uh, care to guess who was president in 1981? Per the "Democratic" bit, it sounds like you are trying to buy into this "you are either Republican or a Democrat" garbage. That is true in voting for the president and higher level offices, but not much beyond that.


Okay...

(1) There appear to be specific requirements that must be met in order for the private owner to access the minerals. If the private owner can't meet those requirements, tough shit for the private owner.

(2) Did you read the thing you posted? The reference to 1981 was a reference to a court decision, not a presidential decree. Therefore, no presidential influence there. Further, cases tend to take a while to get decided; therefore, it is likely that whatever happened in the 1981 case happened well before Ronald Reagan was president. I would look for more details but since you can't be bothered to read the thing you posted, why should I put any more effort in?
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:57 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I would look for more details but since you can't be bothered to read the thing you posted, why should I put any more effort in?


it's her computer's fault
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:50 am

saxitoxin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I would look for more details but since you can't be bothered to read the thing you posted, why should I put any more effort in?


it's her computer's fault


Blasted contraptions! With their keys and what not!
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:20 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
I'm just wondering if you'd care to explain (1) how the Bush administration swayed the Supreme Court into ruling in favor of NJ and the developers, and (2) how the Bush administration is involved in the OP, and (3) what exactly was the role of the FS in all of this...

First explain how this has to do with the US Forest Service.

If you want to get into a larger discussion of takings.. fine, but not this thread. And, though i cannot say 100% for sure with out seeing the details (funny how a few details can change the entire debate :roll: ), it does sound like a case of abuse of power. So, you are not arguing against me at any rate, unless the above is a distortion of what really happened.
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:34 am

Answering your posts, greekdog, but first, here is a new link that DOES go onto more detail. i was hampered a bit before because I had to pay to access the source I wanted online. (a nearby newspaper).

http://ecowatch.com/2012/oil-gas-drillers/

OH, one thing... ignore the picture at the top. its rather stupid of them to include it, because it shows what USED to be common. The current fracking sites are like small villages. of bare earth, buildings and vehicles, lights and noise.
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:47 am

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I still don't understand what the concern is. The land was owned by private individuals. The government purchased the land, but not the mineral rights, reserving those to the original owners. The original owners could get the minerals so long as they didn't overly disturb the land.

Neither is this a Republican/Democrat thing either considering this has been around since 1981. I mean we've had three going on four Democratic administrations. You people are whackjobs sometimes (e.g. Player and oVo in this thread).

Accessing the minerals in this instance is so intrusive it prohibits surface uses for which the land was purchased.

Furthermore, Deep Hydraulic Fracking only started in the past few years... and uh, care to guess who was president in 1981? Per the "Democratic" bit, it sounds like you are trying to buy into this "you are either Republican or a Democrat" garbage. That is true in voting for the president and higher level offices, but not much beyond that.


Okay...

(1) There appear to be specific requirements that must be met in order for the private owner to access the minerals. If the private owner can't meet those requirements, tough shit for the private owner

Nope, that WAS the case, though not really, because the demands were actually reasonable, not prohibitive, now its "tough sh*t" for the public.

its like they are claiming that the only way to get their minerals is to strip mine and so too bad if the forest is lost in the mean time... and that is not a huge exaggeration.

thegreekdog wrote: (2) Did you read the thing you posted? The reference to 1981 was a reference to a court decision, not a presidential decree. Therefore, no presidential influence there. Further, cases tend to take a while to get decided; therefore, it is likely that whatever happened in the 1981 case happened well before Ronald Reagan was president. I would look for more details but since you can't be bothered to read the thing you posted, why should I put any more effort in?


It’s a tangled mess.

The 1981 ruling had largely to do with people who were actually homesteading on “mining claims”, particularly in northern California, but also elsewhere. The Allegheny Forest has been drilled almost since its inception, in a couple of cases maybe before (records are not clear on that, but oil and gas drilling began in the general area well before 1911). There are multiple high power gas lines running through the forest, other issues. None of them are managed without controversy, but the forest has largely “grown up” despite that. One reason a lot of activity was far less controversial here is because almost this entire forest is second growth (honestly, the small “old growth” patches are more of an eastern joke than anything biologically real). Given that the area looked a lot like a moonscape, people were more happy to see trees and wildlife return than upset that a few patches were interrupted by drill rigs. BUT, and this is very important, most of them were also largely hidden, small in size. Really, there was more impact from the clearing necessary for the high power lines running through the forest than for the drilling rigs, as far as most people were concerned.

There is just no comparison between those impacts and the impacts of the new frackers. Furthermore, each and every attempt local individuals AND now the US forest service are making to regulate these operations for pure safety and environmental concerns are being thwarted.
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:28 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
I'm just wondering if you'd care to explain (1) how the Bush administration swayed the Supreme Court into ruling in favor of NJ and the developers, and (2) how the Bush administration is involved in the OP, and (3) what exactly was the role of the FS in all of this...

First explain how this has to do with the US Forest Service.

If you want to get into a larger discussion of takings.. fine, but not this thread. And, though i cannot say 100% for sure with out seeing the details (funny how a few details can change the entire debate :roll: ), it does sound like a case of abuse of power. So, you are not arguing against me at any rate, unless the above is a distortion of what really happened.


You're the one bullshitting about "Bush administration" in oVo's post, but I'll let you run away from this one.
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:06 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
I'm just wondering if you'd care to explain (1) how the Bush administration swayed the Supreme Court into ruling in favor of NJ and the developers, and (2) how the Bush administration is involved in the OP, and (3) what exactly was the role of the FS in all of this...

First explain how this has to do with the US Forest Service.

If you want to get into a larger discussion of takings.. fine, but not this thread. And, though i cannot say 100% for sure with out seeing the details (funny how a few details can change the entire debate :roll: ), it does sound like a case of abuse of power. So, you are not arguing against me at any rate, unless the above is a distortion of what really happened.


You're the one bullshitting about "Bush administration" in oVo's post, but I'll let you run away from this one.

No, the point was it was not the Forest Service... and it was not current, either.
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:34 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
I'm just wondering if you'd care to explain (1) how the Bush administration swayed the Supreme Court into ruling in favor of NJ and the developers, and (2) how the Bush administration is involved in the OP, and (3) what exactly was the role of the FS in all of this...

First explain how this has to do with the US Forest Service.

If you want to get into a larger discussion of takings.. fine, but not this thread. And, though i cannot say 100% for sure with out seeing the details (funny how a few details can change the entire debate :roll: ), it does sound like a case of abuse of power. So, you are not arguing against me at any rate, unless the above is a distortion of what really happened.


You're the one bullshitting about "Bush administration" in oVo's post, but I'll let you run away from this one.

No, the point was it was not the Forest Service... and it was not current, either.


Eventually, you'll stop being vague.

Here's the question:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=187874#p4105952
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:37 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
I'm just wondering if you'd care to explain (1) how the Bush administration swayed the Supreme Court into ruling in favor of NJ and the developers, and (2) how the Bush administration is involved in the OP, and (3) what exactly was the role of the FS in all of this...

First explain how this has to do with the US Forest Service.

If you want to get into a larger discussion of takings.. fine, but not this thread. And, though i cannot say 100% for sure with out seeing the details (funny how a few details can change the entire debate :roll: ), it does sound like a case of abuse of power. So, you are not arguing against me at any rate, unless the above is a distortion of what really happened.


You're the one bullshitting about "Bush administration" in oVo's post, but I'll let you run away from this one.

No, the point was it was not the Forest Service... and it was not current, either.


Eventually, you'll stop being vague.

Here's the question:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=187874#p4105952

Right after you explain how the Forest Service was involved. Else, its a different topic.
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:43 pm

Since you don't care to explain the role of the Bush administration in eminent domain (your off-topic remark), then perhaps you can resume addressing TGD's on-topic remarks?
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby oVo on Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:58 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:No, the point was it was not the Forest Service... and it was not current, either.

I said nothing about the "Forest Service" and the point was relative to the subject line in that it pertained to the taking of personal property (family dwellings) by commercial developers using eminent domain. Eminent domain is a tool of government and this New Jersey action was unprecedented in acquiring private property for use by commercial interests and not a necessary use by the city, county or state.

The people trying to save their homes appealed to representatives in higher government --Republican Congressmen and the President to stop this process and prevent developers from "acquiring" their residences in this manner-- and got nothing.

As far as the government protecting the environment goes, a friend gave several hundred thousand acres of pristine forest land to the US Forest Service thinking they would provide good stewardship of the land. The Forest Service in turn sold the logging rights and the entire region was clear cut while Shrub was in office. Legal proceedings are slow when dealing with the government, but you may eventually see this in the news too.
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Re: Taking of public property by private entities

Postby thegreekdog on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:42 pm

Look Player, from this point forward, I'm going to ignore your arguments unless you provide something other than your own personal views on things. You need to provide some evidence of your claims or else you're not going to convince anyone of anything.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Nope, that WAS the case, though not really, because the demands were actually reasonable, not prohibitive, now its "tough sh*t" for the public.

its like they are claiming that the only way to get their minerals is to strip mine and so too bad if the forest is lost in the mean time... and that is not a huge exaggeration.


How do you know this?

PLAYER57832 wrote:It’s a tangled mess.

The 1981 ruling had largely to do with people who were actually homesteading on “mining claims”, particularly in northern California, but also elsewhere. The Allegheny Forest has been drilled almost since its inception, in a couple of cases maybe before (records are not clear on that, but oil and gas drilling began in the general area well before 1911). There are multiple high power gas lines running through the forest, other issues. None of them are managed without controversy, but the forest has largely “grown up” despite that. One reason a lot of activity was far less controversial here is because almost this entire forest is second growth (honestly, the small “old growth” patches are more of an eastern joke than anything biologically real). Given that the area looked a lot like a moonscape, people were more happy to see trees and wildlife return than upset that a few patches were interrupted by drill rigs. BUT, and this is very important, most of them were also largely hidden, small in size. Really, there was more impact from the clearing necessary for the high power lines running through the forest than for the drilling rigs, as far as most people were concerned.

There is just no comparison between those impacts and the impacts of the new frackers. Furthermore, each and every attempt local individuals AND now the US forest service are making to regulate these operations for pure safety and environmental concerns are being thwarted.


It's not really a tangled mess. Private owners come in, take the resources out of the ground, and put everything back the way it was. If they don't, there should be consequences. If there are not consequences, who do we blame? We blame corporate cronyism (not Republicans, not Democrats... the government). As oVo said, apparently New Jersey took private property and gave it to other private citizens; although he posted no links so I have on idea if that's true (but that's neither here nor there).
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