336 Million

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336 Million

Postby Night Strike on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:48 pm

The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.

The Background: According to the according to the Financial Times, on March 14 the Chinese Health Ministry reported the following statistics for its family planning practices since 1971:

-- 336 million abortions performed;

-- 196 million sterilizations conducted;

-- 403 million intrauterine devices inserted.

China, the world's most populous country, first instituted limits on population growth in 1971 and established its "one-child" population control program in 1979.

What It Means: The story has been shockingly underreported considering what China has admitted: Since 1971, the country has carried out the largest single slaughter of human beings in the history of the world.

To put the numbers in perspective, the 336 million deaths in China are:

• More than the entire population of the world at the time of the Crusades (c. 1100 AD).

• Equal to the entire combined populations of the United States and Australia.

• More deaths than were caused by (in millions): the Bubonic Plague in Europe (100), the Great Chinese Famine (45), the 1918 Influenza Pandemic (40), the HIV/AIDS pandemic (25), the Holocaust (13), the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 (8), the Russian famine of 1921 (3), and the American Civil War (.8).

• More than all the people killed in the 10 ten deadliest wars in human history (Based on highest estimates (in millions): World War II (72), World War I (65), Mongol Conquest (60), An Lushan Rebellion (36), Taiping Rebellion (30), Qing Dynasty conquest of the Ming Dynasty (25), Conquests of Timur (20), Dungan Revolt (12), Russian Civil War (9), Second Congo War (5.4))

• More than all the children that will be born in the world over the next ten years.

No comparisons, however, can truly help us to understand the scale of these 336 million deaths—and that is in a single country. The magnitude of the crime is incomprehensible to the human imagination. Only God can truly fathom the depths of this depravity and only God can truly apprehend the magnitude of this loss. May he have mercy on our world for what we have done.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/03/22/china-admits-to-the-greatest-slaughter-in-human-history
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Re: 336 Million

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.

China is very heavily invested in the US.. not necessarily in quantity, but they have pieces of virtually every US industry. A piece is all they need. They can then get access to most of the industry technology, information, either honestlyor not so honestly.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:01 pm

I am sure that many more than 336 million potential persons have been murdered by tissues. Time to sue Kleenex!
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Night Strike on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:02 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:06 pm

How much worse off would the Chinese be if there were 336 million more people alive there right now?

I won't be surprised if soon this rule goes away and is replaced by one that says any unwanted children and/or more than the allowed number become wards of the state (and are forced into the military).
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:08 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.


A fetus is not a person (at least, in the ethically meaningful sense). That is crucial to the abortion debate, and is missed all too often.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:11 pm

What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:15 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?


Indeed. Biologically speaking, the answer is probably well after birth.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Night Strike on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:22 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?


Indeed. Biologically speaking, the answer is probably well after birth.


So you're okay with killing humans up to some arbitrary point well after birth?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby crispybits on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:31 pm

For someone who so often jumps on the perceived straw man arguments of others that was a doozy right there NS!
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Lindax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:46 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?


Indeed. Biologically speaking, the answer is probably well after birth.


So you're okay with killing humans up to some arbitrary point well after birth?


Haha. Have you ever had a "wet dream" NS? And did you cry for that "potential fetus" you killed?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.
Oh, yeah, forgot for a moment, thought I was talking to someone who actually thinks instead of just lobs off one-liners with a conservative bent.

Here is how it works.

First, in China, almost all business is either directly or indirectly run by the government. China is not a democracy, is extremely oppressive and restrictive. China also has billions of people. China has billions of people who, despite what folks in the west would like to believe, might dislike a few things about their government, but who are not going to just rise up and overthrow it. Even if they did, they would not suddenly turn into a western style democracy where all people are theoretically considered equal and given at least theoretical equal importance. In fact, they could really care less about what the west thinks is correct, because their society is much older, more enduring than ours. They will borrow a few attributes, learn from us, but will never BE us.

So, anything you say about business in China, using US and western models is just wrong, from the outset. China will be happy to give us the illusion of openness. They will allow US companies to sell a few things. particularly superficial and effectively meaningless things like Kentucky fried chicken or McDonald's. They will let more substantial stuff come in, primarily so they can gain access to the technology. They don’t have to do this immediately or in an obvious way. Similarly, they will partner/invest in various US companies. Having a US/western mindset, it might all seem independent, not tied together and with no real system.

EXCEPT--- there is essentially no US industry not touched by China.

So far, if all you are interested in is profit, its no big deal. Even if Chinese companies wind up taking a bigger and bigger chunk, there is enough to go around and besides, that’s just competition.

EXCEPT— its not just profit at risk here, not by a long stretch. Do you think a country that has no compunction about imprisoning, killing, isolating, etc its own population will somehow just play “nicey nice” with outsiders once it is large enough and powerful enough to no longer have to bow and scrape to us?

Every oppression, every discrimination China practices on its own people will be magnified elsewhere. We will be the colony.

Think I am just imagining? Well… why on earth would we expect this country to treat us better than it does its own people?

Also, think about all those cyber incursions, aka attacks. So far, there have been no real attacks, but…..

The idea that we can just be in business and not worry about a country like China is pretty much a classic case of "the love of money is the root of all evil"
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?


Indeed. Biologically speaking, the answer is probably well after birth.


So you're okay with killing humans up to some arbitrary point well after birth?


Depending on what you mean by 'okay' -- yes. The point is only arbitrary insofar as it should be chosen so that there is no chance the baby has developed any of the characteristics that we associate with (moral) personhood prior to the chosen date. I am not a medical expert but I have read that one month after birth would be a conservative choice.

Now, what does it mean to be 'okay'? Well, I believe that it should not be treated as murder the same way we would treat the murder of, say, a normal adult human. As a vegan, you might expect that in general I don't think particularly condone the unwarranted killing of any sentient being (it is not easy to pin down when a fetus develops the capacity for sentience, i.e. the ability to feel pain, but modern estimates place it around 24 weeks into the pregnancy), but when the organism is not a person, the standard for what it means to be acceptable to kill the being is much different for what it means to be acceptable to kill a moral person (e.g. a normal adult human). Most or all of the typical reasons why parents choose to terminate a pregnancy fall into this category.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:23 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:How much worse off would the Chinese be if there were 336 million more people alive there right now?

I won't be surprised if soon this rule goes away and is replaced by one that says any unwanted children and/or more than the allowed number become wards of the state (and are forced into the military).


Great question, and there's no clear answer to it.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:26 pm

Night Strike wrote:
The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.

The Background: According to the according to the Financial Times, on March 14 the Chinese Health Ministry reported the following statistics for its family planning practices since 1971:

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/03/22/china-admits-to-the-greatest-slaughter-in-human-history


So, who here trusts the accuracy of those reports?

From what I've read about the "one-child" policy, we should definitely be skeptical.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby john9blue on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:36 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.


A fetus is not a person (at least, in the ethically meaningful sense). That is crucial to the abortion debate, and is missed all too often.


how could we have missed this fact? well, i guess the debate is over now!
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:04 pm

john9blue wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.


A fetus is not a person (at least, in the ethically meaningful sense). That is crucial to the abortion debate, and is missed all too often.


how could we have missed this fact? well, i guess the debate is over now!


Yes, it is. There is only one logically consistent ethical answer to the abortion question, and I have given it to you.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Lootifer on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:25 pm

Lol OH SHIT THE CHINESE ARE ALL GOING TO HELL!!!!

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Re: 336 Million

Postby john9blue on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:33 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.


A fetus is not a person (at least, in the ethically meaningful sense). That is crucial to the abortion debate, and is missed all too often.


how could we have missed this fact? well, i guess the debate is over now!


Yes, it is. There is only one logically consistent ethical answer to the abortion question, and I have given it to you.


intriguing, but i have to admit that i'd be more impressed and more convinced if you actually knew the logic behind your answer.

you see, if you don't know the logic behind your answer, then how are you going to convince anyone else?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:18 pm

Hey guise, let's like i dunno explicitly state one's assumptions lol, and then go from there.

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Re: 336 Million

Postby tzor on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:24 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:A fetus is not a person (at least, in the ethically meaningful sense).


A person's a person, no matter how small. As a fetus emeritus, I take great exception to your insult. We shall meet on the field of honor at dawn.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:37 pm

john9blue wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.


A fetus is not a person (at least, in the ethically meaningful sense). That is crucial to the abortion debate, and is missed all too often.


how could we have missed this fact? well, i guess the debate is over now!


Yes, it is. There is only one logically consistent ethical answer to the abortion question, and I have given it to you.


intriguing, but i have to admit that i'd be more impressed and more convinced if you actually knew the logic behind your answer.

you see, if you don't know the logic behind your answer, then how are you going to convince anyone else?


Well, I've already explained this to you, but let's go again.

The basic logic, which is fairly simple, is that to be a person, an organism needs to have the traits we normally associate with personhood (e.g. the ability to feel pain, and the ability to see oneself as existing over time). It is wrong to kill a person precisely because only a person has those traits which we deem worthy of special protection. In this line of argumentation, many non-human animals are persons, but a fetus is not a person, because a fetus is not a self-conscious organism, and a fetus does not even have the neural pathways established to have sensory inputs like pain before 2/3 of the pregnancy is completed. The "pro-choice" and "pro-life" sides typically either debate about whether a fetus is a human (obviously a silly debate), or about whether it is always wrong to kill a human, but rarely stop to ask if a fetus shares the same characteristics that make a human actually worthy of something similar to the right to life. The answer, of course, is that they obviously do not. The only way to get around this is to make the speciesist assertion that humans are inherently worthy of the right to life; but there is no logical justification for this, and there are plenty of practical problems with this definition, as I can explain if you desire. It is unfortunate that the discussion isn't grounded on a sensible understanding of what makes killing wrong to begin with, because no one is likely to make progress when people can't even agree on the basic ethical principles involved.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Army of GOD on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:37 pm

#fuckchinamakemoney #formyhoes #iloveyouyouloveme #verynicehowmuch
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Lootifer on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:02 pm

I believe the going rate is two dollars my estemmed mr god. What what.
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby rishaed on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:22 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Well, I've already explained this to you, but let's go again.

The basic logic, which is fairly simple, is that to be a person, an organism needs to have the traits we normally associate with personhood (e.g. the ability to feel pain, and the ability to see oneself as existing over time). It is wrong to kill a person precisely because only a person has those traits which we deem worthy of special protection. In this line of argumentation, many non-human animals are persons, but a fetus is not a person, because a fetus is not a self-conscious organism, and a fetus does not even have the neural pathways established to have sensory inputs like pain before 2/3 of the pregnancy is completed. The "pro-choice" and "pro-life" sides typically either debate about whether a fetus is a human (obviously a silly debate), or about whether it is always wrong to kill a human, but rarely stop to ask if a fetus shares the same characteristics that make a human actually worthy of something similar to the right to life. The answer, of course, is that they obviously do not. The only way to get around this is to make the speciesist assertion that humans are inherently worthy of the right to life; but there is no logical justification for this, and there are plenty of practical problems with this definition, as I can explain if you desire. It is unfortunate that the discussion isn't grounded on a sensible understanding of what makes killing wrong to begin with, because no one is likely to make progress when people can't even agree on the basic ethical principles involved.

So next time there's a Serial Killer around go volunteer yourself to be his victim seeing as you lay no claim on your right to live. Might as well kiss goodbye to any freedoms you hold dear as well. You have no logically justifiable right to them. Each "fetus" is called a BABY, which is personal can experience pain and can PANIC (thats an emotion btw). You are also denying that many if not all people with Autism and similar disorders/disabilities as people because many of them cannot relate to time, and thus cannot see themselves existing over time. Similarly your argumentation can be taken to say that those who do not have traits "worthy" of special protection do not have the right to live or even contribute to society. And yet you are probably a strong environmentalist, seeing that you in your basic line of argumentation argue that animals can be considered people, yet they lack the ability to reason and are driven by instinct and primal urges. Your doublemindedness on this is astounding, yet did you not consider that your line of reasoning leads to the fact that not a single person can be considered a person worthy of life, and eventually cannot justify the fact that human life is precious.
Thou shalt not kill.- This is why abortion is wrong. I am for I was, even as a fetus. If you eliminate the person before it can debate with you about the fact that it is a person. I was carried in my mothers womb as a baby, was born and yet cannot remember everything that shaped me in childhood. Does that make me any less of a person then than now? I trow not.
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