336 Million

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336 Million

Postby Night Strike on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:48 pm

The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.

The Background: According to the according to the Financial Times, on March 14 the Chinese Health Ministry reported the following statistics for its family planning practices since 1971:

-- 336 million abortions performed;

-- 196 million sterilizations conducted;

-- 403 million intrauterine devices inserted.

China, the world's most populous country, first instituted limits on population growth in 1971 and established its "one-child" population control program in 1979.

What It Means: The story has been shockingly underreported considering what China has admitted: Since 1971, the country has carried out the largest single slaughter of human beings in the history of the world.

To put the numbers in perspective, the 336 million deaths in China are:

• More than the entire population of the world at the time of the Crusades (c. 1100 AD).

• Equal to the entire combined populations of the United States and Australia.

• More deaths than were caused by (in millions): the Bubonic Plague in Europe (100), the Great Chinese Famine (45), the 1918 Influenza Pandemic (40), the HIV/AIDS pandemic (25), the Holocaust (13), the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 (8), the Russian famine of 1921 (3), and the American Civil War (.8).

• More than all the people killed in the 10 ten deadliest wars in human history (Based on highest estimates (in millions): World War II (72), World War I (65), Mongol Conquest (60), An Lushan Rebellion (36), Taiping Rebellion (30), Qing Dynasty conquest of the Ming Dynasty (25), Conquests of Timur (20), Dungan Revolt (12), Russian Civil War (9), Second Congo War (5.4))

• More than all the children that will be born in the world over the next ten years.

No comparisons, however, can truly help us to understand the scale of these 336 million deaths—and that is in a single country. The magnitude of the crime is incomprehensible to the human imagination. Only God can truly fathom the depths of this depravity and only God can truly apprehend the magnitude of this loss. May he have mercy on our world for what we have done.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/03/22/china-admits-to-the-greatest-slaughter-in-human-history
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Re: 336 Million

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.

China is very heavily invested in the US.. not necessarily in quantity, but they have pieces of virtually every US industry. A piece is all they need. They can then get access to most of the industry technology, information, either honestlyor not so honestly.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:01 pm

I am sure that many more than 336 million potential persons have been murdered by tissues. Time to sue Kleenex!
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Night Strike on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:02 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:06 pm

How much worse off would the Chinese be if there were 336 million more people alive there right now?

I won't be surprised if soon this rule goes away and is replaced by one that says any unwanted children and/or more than the allowed number become wards of the state (and are forced into the military).
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:08 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.


A fetus is not a person (at least, in the ethically meaningful sense). That is crucial to the abortion debate, and is missed all too often.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:11 pm

What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:15 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?


Indeed. Biologically speaking, the answer is probably well after birth.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Night Strike on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:22 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?


Indeed. Biologically speaking, the answer is probably well after birth.


So you're okay with killing humans up to some arbitrary point well after birth?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby crispybits on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:31 pm

For someone who so often jumps on the perceived straw man arguments of others that was a doozy right there NS!
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Lindax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:46 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?


Indeed. Biologically speaking, the answer is probably well after birth.


So you're okay with killing humans up to some arbitrary point well after birth?


Haha. Have you ever had a "wet dream" NS? And did you cry for that "potential fetus" you killed?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Yet another reason why letting business and competition have their sway without any check is just wrong.


I didn't know businesses had an impact on the number of abortions performed in China. Maybe instead of decrying everything that has to do with the marketplace, you would start decrying the people that kill innocent people.
Oh, yeah, forgot for a moment, thought I was talking to someone who actually thinks instead of just lobs off one-liners with a conservative bent.

Here is how it works.

First, in China, almost all business is either directly or indirectly run by the government. China is not a democracy, is extremely oppressive and restrictive. China also has billions of people. China has billions of people who, despite what folks in the west would like to believe, might dislike a few things about their government, but who are not going to just rise up and overthrow it. Even if they did, they would not suddenly turn into a western style democracy where all people are theoretically considered equal and given at least theoretical equal importance. In fact, they could really care less about what the west thinks is correct, because their society is much older, more enduring than ours. They will borrow a few attributes, learn from us, but will never BE us.

So, anything you say about business in China, using US and western models is just wrong, from the outset. China will be happy to give us the illusion of openness. They will allow US companies to sell a few things. particularly superficial and effectively meaningless things like Kentucky fried chicken or McDonald's. They will let more substantial stuff come in, primarily so they can gain access to the technology. They don’t have to do this immediately or in an obvious way. Similarly, they will partner/invest in various US companies. Having a US/western mindset, it might all seem independent, not tied together and with no real system.

EXCEPT--- there is essentially no US industry not touched by China.

So far, if all you are interested in is profit, its no big deal. Even if Chinese companies wind up taking a bigger and bigger chunk, there is enough to go around and besides, that’s just competition.

EXCEPT— its not just profit at risk here, not by a long stretch. Do you think a country that has no compunction about imprisoning, killing, isolating, etc its own population will somehow just play “nicey nice” with outsiders once it is large enough and powerful enough to no longer have to bow and scrape to us?

Every oppression, every discrimination China practices on its own people will be magnified elsewhere. We will be the colony.

Think I am just imagining? Well… why on earth would we expect this country to treat us better than it does its own people?

Also, think about all those cyber incursions, aka attacks. So far, there have been no real attacks, but…..

The idea that we can just be in business and not worry about a country like China is pretty much a classic case of "the love of money is the root of all evil"
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:What is crucial is "what is the point where it changes from a fetus to a person"?


Indeed. Biologically speaking, the answer is probably well after birth.


So you're okay with killing humans up to some arbitrary point well after birth?


Depending on what you mean by 'okay' -- yes. The point is only arbitrary insofar as it should be chosen so that there is no chance the baby has developed any of the characteristics that we associate with (moral) personhood prior to the chosen date. I am not a medical expert but I have read that one month after birth would be a conservative choice.

Now, what does it mean to be 'okay'? Well, I believe that it should not be treated as murder the same way we would treat the murder of, say, a normal adult human. As a vegan, you might expect that in general I don't think particularly condone the unwarranted killing of any sentient being (it is not easy to pin down when a fetus develops the capacity for sentience, i.e. the ability to feel pain, but modern estimates place it around 24 weeks into the pregnancy), but when the organism is not a person, the standard for what it means to be acceptable to kill the being is much different for what it means to be acceptable to kill a moral person (e.g. a normal adult human). Most or all of the typical reasons why parents choose to terminate a pregnancy fall into this category.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:23 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:How much worse off would the Chinese be if there were 336 million more people alive there right now?

I won't be surprised if soon this rule goes away and is replaced by one that says any unwanted children and/or more than the allowed number become wards of the state (and are forced into the military).


Great question, and there's no clear answer to it.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:26 pm

Night Strike wrote:
The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.

The Background: According to the according to the Financial Times, on March 14 the Chinese Health Ministry reported the following statistics for its family planning practices since 1971:

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/03/22/china-admits-to-the-greatest-slaughter-in-human-history


So, who here trusts the accuracy of those reports?

From what I've read about the "one-child" policy, we should definitely be skeptical.
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