336 Million

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Re: 336 Million

Postby Woodruff on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:28 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I consider anyone who is against contraceptives while also being against abortion to be willfully evil. I consider anyone who is against free contraceptives while also being against abortion to be extremely short-sighted, at best.


Okay, let's get into this.

Why should contraceptives be "free?"
Additionally, please define the term "free" - do you mean that contraceptives will be given away by the companies that manufacture them or paid for by someone else. If paid for by someone else, who pays for them?


I don't necessarily think they SHOULD be free. However, I am also not against abortion, therefore I view the situation differently than some others.

To explain, if somoene is against contraceptives but also against abortion, they are effectively only interested in punishing people for having sex outside of the purpose of procreation. There really is no way around it. I would consider that to be evil.

To explain my second point, someone who is against abortion should recognize that contraceptives are far cheaper to provide than abortions are. Which is why I would consider that individual to be quite short-sighted because if the idea is "don't use my money for it", well...you can pay a little or you can pay a lot. As you state, there really isn't a "free" to it, but my reference of course was that they be "free to the user" (presumably paid for by taxes or charity or what-not...several methods are plausible).

Note that again I am not saying that anyone who wants to have sex is ENTITLED to free contraceptives. I am approaching the issue from the perspective of "the complaintant", if you will.


i pretty much agree, the cost/benefit ratio of contraceptives is very good. i'd be all for an expanded state role in providing contraceptives/sex ed if it meant limiting abortions.


There seems to be a correllation between states that have abstinence-only sex-education and the rate of teen pregnancy. It seems likely to me that it's a causal factor.


Image


I know you think it's cute to be snarky, but I'm well aware of the correllation-causation fallacy. That doesn't mean there can't be a factor involved. But don't wrap yourself into the specifics of the idea...that might require actual thought.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:31 pm

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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:06 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:There seems to be a correllation between states that have abstinence-only sex-education and the rate of teen pregnancy. It seems likely to me that it's a causal factor.


Image


I know you think it's cute to be snarky, but I'm well aware of the correllation-causation fallacy. That doesn't mean there can't be a factor involved. But don't wrap yourself into the specifics of the idea...that might require actual thought.


Please, tell me more about how "it seems likely to me" is an example of getting into the specifics of an idea.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Woodruff on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:32 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:There seems to be a correllation between states that have abstinence-only sex-education and the rate of teen pregnancy. It seems likely to me that it's a causal factor.


Image


I know you think it's cute to be snarky, but I'm well aware of the correllation-causation fallacy. That doesn't mean there can't be a factor involved. But don't wrap yourself into the specifics of the idea...that might require actual thought.


Please, tell me more about how "it seems likely to me" is an example of getting into the specifics of an idea.


As opposed to posting an irrelevant picture, you mean?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:40 pm

Abstract
Purpose
The role that sex education plays in the initiation of sexual activity and risk of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease (STD) is controversial in the United States. Despite several systematic reviews, few epidemiologic evaluations of the effectiveness of these programs on a population level have been conducted.

Methods
Among never-married heterosexual adolescents, aged 15–19 years, who participated in Cycle 6 (2002) of the National Survey of Family Growth and reported on formal sex education received before their first sexual intercourse (n = 1719), we compared the sexual health risks of adolescents who received abstinence-only and comprehensive sex education to those of adolescents who received no formal sex education. Weighted multivariate logistic regression generated population-based estimates.

Results
Adolescents who received comprehensive sex education were significantly less likely to report teen pregnancy (ORadj = .4, 95% CI = .22– .69, p = .001) than those who received no formal sex education, whereas there was no significant effect of abstinence-only education (ORadj = .7, 95% CI = .38–1.45, p = .38). Abstinence-only education did not reduce the likelihood of engaging in vaginal intercourse (ORadj = .8, 95% CI = .51–1.31, p = .40), but comprehensive sex education was marginally associated with a lower likelihood of reporting having engaged in vaginal intercourse (ORadj = .7, 95% CI = .49–1.02, p = .06). Neither abstinence-only nor comprehensive sex education significantly reduced the likelihood of reported STD diagnoses (ORadj = 1.7, 95% CI = .57–34.76, p = .36 and ORadj = 1.8, 95% CI = .67–5.00, p = .24 respectively).

Conclusions
Teaching about contraception was not associated with increased risk of adolescent sexual activity or STD. Adolescents who received comprehensive sex education had a lower risk of pregnancy than adolescents who received abstinence-only or no sex education.


http://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(07)00426-0/abstract
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:47 pm

That was what you wanted, Mets, right?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:53 am

Symmetry wrote:That was what you wanted, Mets, right?


Thank you.
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Re:

Postby daddy1gringo on Tue May 07, 2013 2:16 pm

Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:So I never really deal with the issue of demonstrating that infanticide is wrong except to point out that even your fellow pro choice advocates who are not burdened by my obsolete superstitions, seem to take it as a given.


Your faith is Abrahamic, right?
I don't use the term, but I suppose those who do would classify it as such. Why?


The dude is known for his willingness to commit infanticide.
:lol: Good one. Actually, it's even worse: Isaac was at least a teenager, if not older by then.


What makes you think that?
It has been so long that I have known that I don't remember all of the evidence in the text, but it's the opinion of any scholar or commentary I know of. Two things that present themselves are:

1. He certainly was not an "infant", which literally means "not speaking", since he asked "...where is the lamb...?" which also shows that he was knowledgeable and aware enough to notice something missing.

2. It says that he carried the wood for the sacrifice, so he was big and strong enough to carry enough wood for a decent fire, up a mountain.

It's actually likely that he was big enough that he would have to be a willing participant, since, barring divine intervention, old Abe could not have caught him and wrestled him down. That makes sense from a believer's perspective, since A. this was supposed to foreshadow God the Father sacrificing his son, and B. it says that God chose Abraham because he would pass on his faith and knowledge of God to his descendants (I'd have to look up the reference). One dramatization that my wife saw recently, he was played by a strapping grown man, (Josh Lucas?) and said "You'd better tie me; I don't know if I can make myself stay."
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Symmetry on Tue May 07, 2013 2:35 pm

What would be your preferred term for this?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby daddy1gringo on Wed May 08, 2013 7:04 am

Symmetry wrote:What would be your preferred term for this?
I'd call it "concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead." (Heb 11:19) ;)
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Symmetry on Wed May 08, 2013 12:52 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What would be your preferred term for this?
I'd call it "concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead." (Heb 11:19) ;)


Would that not also be a justification for your definition of abortion?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby daddy1gringo on Wed May 08, 2013 4:08 pm

Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What would be your preferred term for this?
I'd call it "concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead." (Heb 11:19) ;)


Would that not also be a justification for your definition of abortion?
Believing that God told you to abort her because he was going to raise her from the dead? When somebody claims that I'll let you know.
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Postby Symmetry on Wed May 08, 2013 4:19 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What would be your preferred term for this?
I'd call it "concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead." (Heb 11:19) ;)


Would that not also be a justification for your definition of abortion?
Believing that God told you to abort her because he was going to raise her from the dead? When somebody claims that I'll let you know.


You're going to let me know when people believe in the Bible? I've got to be honest, I don't think it will come as a surprise.
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Re:

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 5:34 pm

Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What would be your preferred term for this?
I'd call it "concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead." (Heb 11:19) ;)


Would that not also be a justification for your definition of abortion?
Believing that God told you to abort her because he was going to raise her from the dead? When somebody claims that I'll let you know.


You're going to let me know when people believe in the Bible? I've got to be honest, I don't think it will come as a surprise.


That really isn't what he said, and it seems like you would know that.
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Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Thu May 09, 2013 12:24 am

Woodruff wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What would be your preferred term for this?
I'd call it "concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead." (Heb 11:19) ;)


Would that not also be a justification for your definition of abortion?
Believing that God told you to abort her because he was going to raise her from the dead? When somebody claims that I'll let you know.


You're going to let me know when people believe in the Bible? I've got to be honest, I don't think it will come as a surprise.


That really isn't what he said, and it seems like you would know that.


Aye, I was probably unfair. Sorry.
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Re: Re:

Postby john9blue on Thu May 09, 2013 1:48 am

Symmetry wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That really isn't what he said, and it seems like you would know that.


Aye, I was probably trolling. Sorry.
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Re: Re:

Postby daddy1gringo on Thu May 09, 2013 5:42 am

Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What would be your preferred term for this?
I'd call it "concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead." (Heb 11:19) ;)


Would that not also be a justification for your definition of abortion?
Believing that God told you to abort her because he was going to raise her from the dead? When somebody claims that I'll let you know.


You're going to let me know when people believe in the Bible? I've got to be honest, I don't think it will come as a surprise.


Symmetry wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That really isn't what he said, and it seems like you would know that.


Aye, I was probably unfair. Sorry.
john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That really isn't what he said, and it seems like you would know that.


Aye, I was probably trolling. Sorry.
Image

Right, so, that said, (thanks Woods and J9b) Let's recap and clarify. When someone gets or wants an abortion because they believe that God told them to take the child's life and that he's going to raise the pre-born, aborted child from the dead, I'll give you an analysis of that line of thought as a justification for the abortion. You have my word on that.
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