336 Million

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Re: 336 Million

Postby thegreekdog on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:34 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
The basic logic, which is fairly simple, is that to be a person, an organism needs to have the traits we normally associate with personhood (e.g. the ability to feel pain, and the ability to see oneself as existing over time).


comatose and unconscious people meet neither of these criteria. can we kill them all?


No. In the case of someone who is temporarily comatose or unconscious, one would obviously reach unintended conclusions if one applied directly the standard of presently seeing oneself as existing over time. Therefore the theory may be modified to be made more explicit by saying that a person is any being that has at some time been self-aware, even if they are not presently in this state (this is what I meant when I said that an organism has the ability to see oneself as existing over time -- it may not be exercising that ability at every moment, though). It can be modified even more if one were to discuss cases of humans in persistent vegetative states that are no longer capable of being self-aware, in which case one might want to extend the definition even further by saying that a person must have at some time been self-aware and also must be capable of being self-aware at some point in the future. These are complications on the main issue at hand, but do lead into interesting questions about how to treat, for example, brain-dead patients.

TGD wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote: At any rate, I choose this definition as a simple way to express self-awareness. If you do not like it, there are other definitions. For example, a crude definition would be that any organism capable of passing the mirror test is a person.


wikipedia wrote:From the age of 6 to 12 months, the child typically sees a "sociable playmate" in the mirror's reflection.


So if you have a child, it would be perfectly okay for someone to kill that child before he or she reaches 12 months of age? Note, I'm not talking about a child; I'm talking about your child.


No, of course not. There are external reasons why it would be gravely wrong for someone to kill my newborn child -- namely, the distress it would cause to me (although this is largely hypothetical as I do not intend to have children). My argument is that it is wrong but it is not murder to kill a newborn child. Note that I specifically advocated a standard of one month after birth to be conservative, because there will certainly be some cases of children maturing faster than the norm.

Metsfanmax wrote:Although there are plenty of reasons why the typical absolute right to life standard is flawed,


I would like to get into this. Why is the absolute right to life standard flawed if applied to your definition of a person?


My apologies again for the lack of clarity; I was referring to the traditional "absolute right to life of humans" standard that is often espoused by, for example, the Catholic Church. One reason it is flawed is, for example, the issue of twinning. Twins can be formed up to two weeks after conception, and this muddles the question of what it means for the newly conceived fetus to be a unique person. Another is that it demands that we can never actively terminate the life of a gravely ill patient in serious pain, yet doctors effectively (passively) do this all the time when they, for example, decide to stop treatment on such a patient that extends the agony. From the doctor's point of view, both decisions terminate a life, yet for some reason people call the first murder and the second being a good doctor.

Metsfanmax wrote:One is either a person or not a person. Once a being is capable of forming memories and being self-aware, it is a person. You are not more of a person than when you were a young child, but you were not a person at all when you were a fetus. This is simply logically obvious. If you insist that you were a person as a fetus, then all you are doing is redefining "person" as "human being," in which case the entire meaning of the argument is lost.


Can you flesh this out some more? This is where I'm having trouble with respect to your definition. Let's ignore abortion for a second and focus on the idea of "personhood" and your definition (from what I can gather): namely, self-recognition. If a human being will eventually be a person, why is it okay to kill the human being?


Well, because we don't apply rights when the conditions for those rights have not been fulfilled. Prince Charles is next in line to be the head monarch of England, but we don't presently grant him the rights of the King just because he will someday hold that title. A President-elect has several months after being elected where we do not give this person access to the nuclear football.

I'm also a bit concerned about your use of logic in what can only be considered a desire (namely, the ability or right to live).


There is no problem with it; in fact, it's the basis for my system of ethics (preference utilitarianism). Ultimately, reason and logic do not dictate what people's desires are; those desires are inputs that must be respected in a system of ethics. Perhaps for that reason, I don't believe in an absolute right to life for persons, but do believe that such an effective right springs from the categorical imperative. Namely, it is my desire not to be killed, so a proper universalization of that principle leads one to the principle that one should not murder.

By the way, for those that care - Mets' definitions and reasoning are not the definitions and reasoning used in Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey.


This is quite correct. My arguments are not accepted as any current legal doctrine; nevertheless, I find them to be compelling on philosophical grounds, even if I doubt that after-birth abortion will be accepted any time soon in this country.


Thanks. This was helpful. I obviously do not agree with you. I can't get past the idea that, of all the things we may call rights, the desire to live is the fiercest defended. Whether it is logical or not, most living organisms desire to live above all else.

I also cannot accept your definition of personhood (or your analogy - one that I thought of before posting, but thought I'd wait). It's not that we're treating a prince like a king in the event that he may become a king. It is not certain that prince will become king. It is virtually certain that a human being will become a person.

If we combine the two: a human being's desire to live plus that it is virtually certain a human being will become a person, it is unacceptable, to me, to hold your point of view. Logic and reason should not factor in to the determination of a "right" or "desire" to live.

It's disappointing that you don't want to have children. I cannot begin to explain how much illogical and unreasonable love I have for my own children.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:47 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I also cannot accept your definition of personhood (or your analogy - one that I thought of before posting, but thought I'd wait). It's not that we're treating a prince like a king in the event that he may become a king. It is not certain that prince will become king. It is virtually certain that a human being will become a person.


I will dispute this claim before PLAYER gets in here. Something like 50% of pregnancies are estimated to be spontaneously aborted (although often this happens before the woman knows she is pregnant). It is far from certain that every conceived life will eventually become a person. Although I admit that if you wait until, say, the second or third trimester, this argument becomes stronger.

It's disappointing that you don't want to have children. I cannot begin to explain how much illogical and unreasonable love I have for my own children.


I will still consider it, but you are right that I can't possibly understand those feelings before having children of my own. I try to factor it in the "plus" column of my whether to have children spreadsheet (metaphorical spreadsheet, so far), but I don't know if it's enough for me.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby thegreekdog on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:59 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I also cannot accept your definition of personhood (or your analogy - one that I thought of before posting, but thought I'd wait). It's not that we're treating a prince like a king in the event that he may become a king. It is not certain that prince will become king. It is virtually certain that a human being will become a person.


I will dispute this claim before PLAYER gets in here. Something like 50% of pregnancies are estimated to be spontaneously aborted (although often this happens before the woman knows she is pregnant). It is far from certain that every conceived life will eventually become a person. Although I admit that if you wait until, say, the second or third trimester, this argument becomes stronger.

It's disappointing that you don't want to have children. I cannot begin to explain how much illogical and unreasonable love I have for my own children.


I will still consider it, but you are right that I can't possibly understand those feelings before having children of my own. I try to factor it in the "plus" column of my whether to have children spreadsheet (metaphorical spreadsheet, so far), but I don't know if it's enough for me.


Sorry, wasn't talking about abortion. I'm not interested in legal definitions in this thread.

I also will say that child rearing is not easy, and I won't pry into your other reasons.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:18 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:(although this is largely hypothetical as I do not intend to have children).

That's a real shame. You should father many, many children. You know, do your part in balancing out all the stupid people that shouldn't breed.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:27 pm

tkr4lf wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:(although this is largely hypothetical as I do not intend to have children).

That's a real shame. You should father many, many children. You know, do your part in balancing out all the stupid people that shouldn't breed.


Why do that when I can just kill all the babies of the stupid people?

8-)
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:27 pm

tkr4lf wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:(although this is largely hypothetical as I do not intend to have children).

That's a real shame. You should father many, many children. You know, do your part in balancing out all the stupid people that shouldn't breed.

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Re: 336 Million

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:16 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:(although this is largely hypothetical as I do not intend to have children).

That's a real shame. You should father many, many children. You know, do your part in balancing out all the stupid people that shouldn't breed.


Why do that when I can just kill all the babies of the stupid people?

8-)

Do both.

It's for the good of humanity, mets!
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Re: An Interesting Quiz

Postby comic boy on Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:59 am

premio53 wrote:How would you respond in these situations?

1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

God is the author of life, and He has given every single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry. (The evidence Bible)


Your morals are entirely your own business but you wont find any support for your views in the Bible , abortion is not mentioned at all . You will of course argue that it comes under the subject of murder but I would like to know from where you draw the definition of a living being . The Bible does not say , The Torah defines life as half way out of the birth canal ( and is specific in allowing certain abortions up to this point ) whilst current secular science is far more pro life in its guidance than Jewish law at the time of Moses.
Doesn't your good book mention something about taking God's name in vain ?
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Re: 336 Million

Postby oVo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:49 am

Night Strike wrote:
The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.
China and India both have populations that exceed one billion people.

It sounds like contraceptive methods haven't worked out very well there and require a renewed emphasis towards birth control. Your focus here is on the abortion of unwanted pregnancies that you refer to as "unborn children," consider the tragedy of children actually born in China who are abandoned on the side of the road because they are female.
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Re: An Interesting Quiz

Postby oVo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:07 am

premio53 wrote:How would you respond in these situations?

1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

Actually in all four scenarios there is no evidence at all that John Wesley, Ludwig Van Beethoven, Ethel Waters or Jesus Christ would not have come into this world anyways.
Even if all of these women had abortions.

In #4 you are speculating that "her fiancé is upset" because she is pregnant, but maybe it's because he doubts her story of "Immaculate Conception" and suspects infidelity or that someone else tapped that sweet thing before he did.
Last edited by oVo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Interesting Quiz

Postby crispybits on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:25 am

premio53 wrote:How would you respond in these situations?

1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

God is the author of life, and He has given every single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry. (The evidence Bible)


By your own moral standards:

A couple in a stable long term relationship fall pregnant. There are no significant health concerns for either mother or baby. Would you recommend abortion?

If you would not, then you've just allowed any of the following to be born:

Hitler (death toll approx 60-70 million)
Stalin (death toll approx 6 million)
Mao Ze Dong (death toll approx 50-70 million)
Pol Pot (death toll approx 1.5-2 million)

and on a smaller scale:

Luis Garavito (138 kills confirmed, up to 400 suspected)
Daniel Barbosa (72 kills confirmed, up to 150 suspected)
Yang Xinhai (67 kills confirmed)
Gary Ridgeway (49 kills confirmed, up to 70 suspected)

If you're going to try and use consequentialist standards to justify something, then you have to admit that in these 8 cases, abortion would have been justified and that has absolutely jack to do with the made up words of your imaginary sky daddy.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:28 am

oVo wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.
China and India both have populations that exceed one billion people.

It sounds like contraceptive methods haven't worked out very well there and require a renewed emphasis towards birth control. Your focus here is on the abortion of unwanted pregnancies that you refer to as "unborn children," consider the tragedy of children actually born in China who are abandoned on the side of the road because they are female.

All of these are tragedies.


Culturally, birth control is almost impossible in India. The man decides.. and the man wants a son. Wives sometimes can sneak, but the consequences can be very severe if she is found out by her husband or his familiy.
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Re: An Interesting Quiz

Postby premio53 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:00 am

comic boy wrote:
premio53 wrote:God is the author of life, and He has given every single individual supreme value. Each life—whether inside or outside the womb—should therefore be valued by us. God knows the plans He has for each individual and has written in His book all the days ordained for us before one of them came to be. When we presume to know better than God who should be given life, we are putting ourselves in the place of God and are guilty of idolatry. (The evidence Bible)


Your morals are entirely your own business but you wont find any support for your views in the Bible , abortion is not mentioned at all . You will of course argue that it comes under the subject of murder but I would like to know from where you draw the definition of a living being . The Bible does not say , The Torah defines life as half way out of the birth canal ( and is specific in allowing certain abortions up to this point ) whilst current secular science is far more pro life in its guidance than Jewish law at the time of Moses.
Doesn't your good book mention something about taking God's name in vain ?

You are dead wrong!

Job 31:15 - Did not He who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?

Jeremiah 1:5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Taking the life of the unborn is clearly murder. The unborn child was granted equal protection under the law; if he lost his life, the one who caused his death must lose his own life:

Exodus 21:22,23 - “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,..."

"I know abortion isn't right, but if not legal, we'll have all those poor girls slipping off to see those butchers in the dark alleys. At least this way they get counseling."

You're right. Think of all those poor murderers who are condemned to slip around and kill in secret. We ought to legalize murder too! Then they can kill in a nice clean safe environment. They'll be protected from getting splashed with blood that might contain diseases, and we can offer counseling so they don't have any post murder trauma from the choices they've made.

When a nation violates God's moral Law, it no longer makes any distinction between good and evil. Abortion, pornography, homosexuality, adultery, lying and stealing become accepted parts of its culture.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby _sabotage_ on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:24 am

Abortion, like theft, murder, prostitution and drugs, is going to happen, whether legal or illegal. Suggesting that it is against God doesn't mean shit. Most people believe in God at their convenience, if ever. Making it illegal just increases the risk involved.

Forced abortion is another story. If you would like to quote from the Bible, perhaps you should start at the top: Do onto others as you would have others do onto you.

You wouldn't want others to force their beliefs and their decisions on you and in doing so you are breaking the law which governs all others. So stop being a dick. You have your opinions, don't impose them on others and don't call others murderers for disagreeing you fucking hypocrite.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby chang50 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:31 am

Hey Mets,I don't entirely agree with all of your thesis but I just wanted to say you are very brave to present such controversial ideas on this forum knowing the flak you would receive from the usual quarters...
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Re: 336 Million

Postby premio53 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:38 am

_sabotage_ wrote:Abortion, like theft, murder, prostitution and drugs, is going to happen, whether legal or illegal. Suggesting that it is against God doesn't mean shit. Most people believe in God at their convenience, if ever. Making it illegal just increases the risk involved.

Forced abortion is another story. If you would like to quote from the Bible, perhaps you should start at the top: Do onto others as you would have others do onto you.

You wouldn't want others to force their beliefs and their decisions on you and in doing so you are breaking the law which governs all others. So stop being a dick. You have your opinions, don't impose them on others and don't call others murderers for disagreeing you fucking hypocrite.

Tell that to an innocent unborn being ripped apart in his mother's womb by greedy doctors and thrown away like a piece of trash!

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Re: 336 Million

Postby _sabotage_ on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:01 am

A recent case in Beijing:

A 20 year-old pregnant girl gave birth to a boy in the back of a tradesman's motorized cart this week. She then covered him with some litter found in the back and abandoned him naked in the cold. The tradesman found him an hour later and the child was dead within six hours. Good thing he wasn't aborted, we wouldn't be able to prosecute the highly intelligent mother for murder.

I am a parent and would do anything for my son. A few years ago, my wife came down with something and received some medication at the hospital. A few days later, we realized she wasn't sick but pregnant. We asked about the medication and were told we would have to abort the child due to the medicine that she was given. I was furious, a married woman in the prime of her child bearing years was given medicine that would utterly ruin the fetus without consideration that the symptoms could be pregnancy. If we hadn't aborted that child, then we wouldn't have our son. You can make the case that we should have proceeded with the pregnancy regardless of the outcome, but this desire to do anything for your child may include making the decision to protect him/her and provide the best possible life for them by ending it. You may think it isn't our decision to make, that it was a sacred God given existence and you may be right. It is me that will face that, and not you. You can spend your time explaining why you tried to enforce your beliefs on others and I can explain why I ended a life prematurely.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Johnny Rockets on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:59 am

tkr4lf wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:(although this is largely hypothetical as I do not intend to have children).

That's a real shame. You should father many, many children. You know, do your part in balancing out all the stupid people that shouldn't breed.


Stupid people like a great Evangelist who continued to breed like a rabbit even though he's dooming each subsequent offspring to a life of poverty and the perils that go with it?

I fully agree. Free abortions under 12 weeks. Free sterilization for anyone that wants. Free birth control for any that asks with no questions or critique.

We have fucked this planet, raped the oceans, and have way too many mouths to feed.
Try to restrain the population with as much morality as possible, but we need to lighten the ship or we are ALL going to fucking starve to death. Well....that is if we are lucky.
Nothing breeds civil unrest and war like a famine.

Can you really believe that the world would be a better place with an additional 336 million mouths to feed?????


JRock


Oh yeah.......and throw these guys a few bucks if you can afford it.
They are doing more to help eliminate social decay and child suffering than anyone else I know.
http://www.projectprevention.org/
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Re: 336 Million

Postby patches70 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:22 am

Save the World and off yourself JR! I can think of no other act that could be more selfless. After all, you've participated in "fucking the planet" and raping the oceans and you are yet another mouth to feed. We have to lighten the ship after all, might as well start with you.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:39 am

patches70 wrote:Save the World and off yourself JR! I can think of no other act that could be more selfless. After all, you've participated in "fucking the planet" and raping the oceans and you are yet another mouth to feed. We have to lighten the ship after all, might as well start with you.


The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement

I'm nominating patches too, and the rest of us. We'll just make the voluntary involuntary as well.


--Andy
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Re: 336 Million

Postby patches70 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:11 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
patches70 wrote:Save the World and off yourself JR! I can think of no other act that could be more selfless. After all, you've participated in "fucking the planet" and raping the oceans and you are yet another mouth to feed. We have to lighten the ship after all, might as well start with you.


The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement

I'm nominating patches too, and the rest of us. We'll just make the voluntary involuntary as well.


--Andy


haha! Nice organization. I have no qualms with it. So long as things are voluntary.
I'm even all for sterilization, birth control and if people want abortions, I won't stop them. But contrary to what JR seems to think, there is no such thing as "free" abortions, birth control or abortions. No one should be involuntarily forced to have such things, nor forced to perform such things, nor forced to pay for such things for other people.

Are there abortion doctors who will perform abortions and sterilizations for no payment at all?
Are the medical supplies required produced and then given away at no cost?
Are birth control methods (excluding abstinence) produced and have no associated cost to them?

You want an abortion, pay for it yourself, don't force other people to pay for it.
Birth control, sterilizations, go for, just don't take food and resources from my mouth to pay for it.
It's wasteful.
Can't afford such things? Find people like JR and organizations like Andy's who will gladly contribute to such a cause. But don't force any who do not wish to participate to contribute.

Indeed, there is no such things as "free stuff". Someone has to pay. Thus, I say JR should voluntarily pay for abortions for anyone who wants them and stay out of everyone else's lives and wallets. I can think of only one more selfless act.

Me, I'm selfish. Sue me.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:36 pm

chang50 wrote:Hey Mets,I don't entirely agree with all of your thesis but I just wanted to say you are very brave to present such controversial ideas on this forum knowing the flak you would receive from the usual quarters...


Thank you. I firmly believe in what I say, and I think that anyone who has strong opinions on their philosophy should not keep it to themselves just because people might not like them as much. Ideas are too important to stay hidden.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Night Strike on Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:43 pm

oVo wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
The Story: The Chinese government recently admitted that over the last four decades the country has aborted 336 million unborn children, many of them forcibly.
China and India both have populations that exceed one billion people.

It sounds like contraceptive methods haven't worked out very well there and require a renewed emphasis towards birth control. Your focus here is on the abortion of unwanted pregnancies that you refer to as "unborn children," consider the tragedy of children actually born in China who are abandoned on the side of the road because they are female.


They're only unwanted because of governmental mandates of limiting families to 1 child.
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Re: 336 Million

Postby john9blue on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:55 pm

Frigidus wrote:For the record, Metsfanmax does not represent the views of everyone in favor of allowing abortion. Just thought I should point that out.


you are correct, most pro-choice advocates are not intellectually honest or capable enough to take their views to their logical conclusion (that newborn children and often other types of fully-grown humans should be able to be murdered)
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Re: 336 Million

Postby Gillipig on Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:36 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:I am sure that many more than 336 million potential persons have been murdered by tissues. Time to sue Kleenex!

I've probably killed 336 million potential lives myself.
AoG for President of the World!!
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