legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

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Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:29 pm

2dimes wrote:oih boi...

That's not good enough. Do you like abortions? How many is too many? Views on forced sterilization?...
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:58 pm

No, 3 per woman, do it!
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Re: legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:41 pm

Since we're in full agreement, then we can safely bury this thread!
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:42 pm

Abort!
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Re: legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

Postby thegreekdog on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:57 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:I have NEVER, repeat NEVER claimed that all or most abortions are “to save a mother’s life”.


Okay.

PLAYER57832 wrote:In fact, the largest percentage – anywhere from 30-75%, depending on if you start counting from inception, and so forth – are for fully natural causes, aka miscarriages.


Miscarriages were never illegal and therefore are irrelevant to any discussion of the legality or illegality of abortion. This is the other thing that you do that I have a problem with.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Other than that, I say just claiming that women having abortions are just doing so because they are too lazy or stupid or uncaring to really think out their choices and that they really don’t understand what they are doing, which you and others here are pretty much implying, is plain wrong.


I'm not saying that. See below.

PLAYER57832 wrote:See, you use the word “choice” medically when pulling up stats, but then in discussion go to basically “since its their CHOICE, then they can just CHOOSE not to have one.” I say, and the data below explains that things are very far from that simplistic.


It IS that simplistic. It is absolutely that simplistic. For the vast majority of abortions, women have a choice to have the child or not have the child, the woman's own life and death is not in the picture, neither are miscarriages.

thegreekdog wrote:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2411798.html

There is a chart in this linke (Table 2) that shows the "Percentage distribution of women who had an abortion, by main reason given for seeking abortion." The categories and US statistics are:

Wants to postpone childbearing - 25.5%
Wants no (or no more) children - 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby - 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job - 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy - 14.1%
Too young; parents or others object to pregnancy - 12.2%
Risk to maternal health - 2.8%
Risk to fetal health - 3.3%
Other - 2.1%


PLAYER57832 wrote:
Conclusions: Reasons women give for why they seek abortion are often far more complex than simply not intending to become pregnant; the decision to have an abortion is usually motivated by more than one factor. While improved contraceptive use can help reduce unintended pregnancy and abortion, some abortions will remain difficult to prevent, because of limits to women's ability to determine and control all circumstances of their lives.


So what?

PLAYER57832 wrote:Beyond that, IMMEDIATELY, you would have to add these 2;
Risk to maternal health - 2.8%
Risk to fetal health - 3.3%

Each of these can be real and true reasons why an abortion might be very much medically warranted. The first would actually often include “threatens the mother’s life” – though that is arguable. I leave that designation to psychologists who are trained in that field, much as I leave the determination of cancer or other illness up to medical professionals. I am not going to debate THEIR definitions at this point, here.

SO, already we have it boosted to over 8%. Maybe you think 3% and 8% are equivalent, but I don’t!


Okay, 8%.


PLAYER57832 wrote:Then we get into the details – “too young” and “partner does not wish” are situations of coercion, not “free choice”. They include abuse, real medical issues (a 12 year old is just not equipped to have a child) and other cases that you have, in previous threads said might be case where legalization is reasonable. It likely includes cases you would not consider reasonable, but we would have to delve further into the data to determine that. At any rate, these are cases that I would not call real and true optional choices, definitely not for mere convenience (as Nightstrike and others like to pretend)

So, now we have almost 40% of cases that are not truly “free choice” abortions.


Yep, this is where we part ways. Too young, partner does not wish (i.e. the dad) are not situations of coercion. While they may (MAY! MAY! MAY!) include abuse. It doesn't matter whether I consider them reasonable. Reasonable is not the term I'm arguing with you about. I'm arguing with you about your insistence that there is something noble about abortion or that abortions are miscarriages or any of the other fucked up shit you use to justify your pro-choice position. Like I said before, most pro-choice folks don't feel the need to use the same justifications you use.

I don't care why women have abortions; they do not have to justify their abortions to me. It's their choice. It's not my business. Apparently you feel the need to justify why women want to have abortions. That's ass backwards. Not only is your argument ass backwards, but your reasoning is completely bullshit. I'm not saying women only have abortions willy-nilly; I'm sure most women have excellent reasons. But they aren't "mother's health" or "fetus health" or "abuse" like you're implying (well, not implying so much as saying).
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Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:56 am

thegreekdog wrote: I'm sure most women have excellent reasons. But they aren't "mother's health" or "fetus health" or "abuse" like you're implying (well, not implying so much as saying).


Pregnancy is kind of a womens' health issue.
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Re:

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:40 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: I'm sure most women have excellent reasons. But they aren't "mother's health" or "fetus health" or "abuse" like you're implying (well, not implying so much as saying).


Pregnancy is kind of a womens' health issue.


When I typed "mother's health" I meant the mohter dying.
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Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:44 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: I'm sure most women have excellent reasons. But they aren't "mother's health" or "fetus health" or "abuse" like you're implying (well, not implying so much as saying).


Pregnancy is kind of a womens' health issue.


When I typed "mother's health" I meant the mother dying.


0k.
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Re: legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:54 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:I have NEVER, repeat NEVER claimed that all or most abortions are “to save a mother’s life”.


Okay.

PLAYER57832 wrote:In fact, the largest percentage – anywhere from 30-75%, depending on if you start counting from inception, and so forth – are for fully natural causes, aka miscarriages.


Miscarriages were never illegal and therefore are irrelevant to any discussion of the legality or illegality of abortion. This is the other thing that you do that I have a problem with.

It is relevant when people start trotting out there are x numbers of abortions and pointing to statistics on why women have abortions, without taking the above into account.

In the US, there is no real data on this prior to 12 weeks. Any data collected, including the study to which you referred, is based on interviews and other imperfect data. Data from other countries may nor may not reflect the same information or have other biases (the study you referenced went into some detail on this, but also referenced individual studies or indicated when information was not available fully).

So, dismissing it is not honest.

Also, in some states there IS legislation that attempts to determine "fault" for some miscarriages, such as if drugs or alchohol are involved.
thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Other than that, I say just claiming that women having abortions are just doing so because they are too lazy or stupid or uncaring to really think out their choices and that they really don’t understand what they are doing, which you and others here are pretty much implying, is plain wrong.


I'm not saying that. See below.

PLAYER57832 wrote:See, you use the word “choice” medically when pulling up stats, but then in discussion go to basically “since its their CHOICE, then they can just CHOOSE not to have one.” I say, and the data below explains that things are very far from that simplistic.


It IS that simplistic. It is absolutely that simplistic. For the vast majority of abortions, women have a choice to have the child or not have the child, the woman's own life and death is not in the picture, neither are miscarriages.

Like I said, you consider women too stupid or immoral to make these decisions. You apparently are far superior and better able to make these decisions. That would be bad enough, but you do it without truly looking at the data, as I noted above in regards to miscarriages.

It becomes VERY relevant when, at the point abortions are legal, the chance of term success is at best, 30-50%%, and most studies show the true rate to be less than that if you count from the time a pregnancy is determined. (as opposed to 12 weeks).

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2411798.html

There is a chart in this linke (Table 2) that shows the "Percentage distribution of women who had an abortion, by main reason given for seeking abortion." The categories and US statistics are:

Wants to postpone childbearing - 25.5%
Wants no (or no more) children - 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby - 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job - 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy - 14.1%
Too young; parents or others object to pregnancy - 12.2%
Risk to maternal health - 2.8%
Risk to fetal health - 3.3%
Other - 2.1%


PLAYER57832 wrote:
Conclusions: Reasons women give for why they seek abortion are often far more complex than simply not intending to become pregnant; the decision to have an abortion is usually motivated by more than one factor. While improved contraceptive use can help reduce unintended pregnancy and abortion, some abortions will remain difficult to prevent, because of limits to women's ability to determine and control all circumstances of their lives.


So what?



PLAYER57832 wrote:Beyond that, IMMEDIATELY, you would have to add these 2;
Risk to maternal health - 2.8%
Risk to fetal health - 3.3%

Each of these can be real and true reasons why an abortion might be very much medically warranted. The first would actually often include “threatens the mother’s life” – though that is arguable. I leave that designation to psychologists who are trained in that field, much as I leave the determination of cancer or other illness up to medical professionals. I am not going to debate THEIR definitions at this point, here.

SO, already we have it boosted to over 8%. Maybe you think 3% and 8% are equivalent, but I don’t!


Okay, 8%.


thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Then we get into the details – “too young” and “partner does not wish” are situations of coercion, not “free choice”. They include abuse, real medical issues (a 12 year old is just not equipped to have a child) and other cases that you have, in previous threads said might be case where legalization is reasonable. It likely includes cases you would not consider reasonable, but we would have to delve further into the data to determine that. At any rate, these are cases that I would not call real and true optional choices, definitely not for mere convenience (as Nightstrike and others like to pretend)

So, now we have almost 40% of cases that are not truly “free choice” abortions.


Yep, this is where we part ways. Too young, partner does not wish (i.e. the dad) are not situations of coercion. While they may (MAY! MAY! MAY!) include abuse. It doesn't matter whether I consider them reasonable. Reasonable is not the term I'm arguing with you about. I'm arguing with you about your insistence that there is something noble about abortion or that abortions are miscarriages or any of the other fucked up shit you use to justify your pro-choice position. Like I said before, most pro-choice folks don't feel the need to use the same justifications you use.

You are apparently trying to argue with someone else, because that is absolutely not my position.

MY Position is plain and simply that the best way to prevent abortions is to make birth control widely available and to educate adolescents well in sex education. That, alone won’t stop either teen pregnancies or abortions because some people just have different morals.

However, the line there is will forcing these women to carry their children to term be worse, not just for them and society, but even for the child, than letting her have the abortion.

Frankly, that IS where dealing with abused kids matters. I have seen, deal with far, far worse things than death. And, in many cases the abuses wind up not just perpetuating into the next generation (we are incredibly poor as a society in solving this), but thrusting huge expense on society in both time, law enforcement and social services. NOTE.. I am NOT saying that this is “the answer”. Again, the best answer is to teach and, failing that to provide social support. This is not something I take lightly, I actually work with girls around here, not helping them to get abortions, but helping them to deal with their kids.

Abortion is not a wonderful thing. But the damage caused by not having legal abortions is worse than when they are legal. Women have always had abortions, its just that they often died or became infertile as a result.

thegreekdog wrote: I don't care why women have abortions; they do not have to justify their abortions to me. It's their choice. It's not my business. Apparently you feel the need to justify why women want to have abortions. That's ass backwards. Not only is your argument ass backwards, but your reasoning is completely bullshit. I'm not saying women only have abortions willy-nilly; I'm sure most women have excellent reasons. But they aren't "mother's health" or "fetus health" or "abuse" like you're implying (well, not implying so much as saying).

No, that is what you keep claiming I am saying, but it is not at all what I have ever said
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:00 pm

Hmm, sorry TGD, but Player got you this time.
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Re: legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:19 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:It is relevant when people start trotting out there are x numbers of abortions and pointing to statistics on why women have abortions, without taking the above into account.

In the US, there is no real data on this prior to 12 weeks. Any data collected, including the study to which you referred, is based on interviews and other imperfect data. Data from other countries may nor may not reflect the same information or have other biases (the study you referenced went into some detail on this, but also referenced individual studies or indicated when information was not available fully).

So, dismissing it is not honest.

Also, in some states there IS legislation that attempts to determine "fault" for some miscarriages, such as if drugs or alchohol are involved.


Who is trotting that out? The website I quoted did not trot that out (for example).

I'm sure there are biases in any and all information; I cannot determine those biases since I didn't do the study. Neither can you, unless you performed the study.

There is legislation (and Law & Order episodes) regarding fault for miscarriages if drugs and alcohol are involved. What is your problem with that legislation? Furthermore, if miscarriages were, in fact, included in the study I provided, the inclusion of miscarriages would heavily bias the data in favor of "fetus health" or "mother's health."

PLAYER57832 wrote:Like I said, you consider women too stupid or immoral to make these decisions. You apparently are far superior and better able to make these decisions. That would be bad enough, but you do it without truly looking at the data, as I noted above in regards to miscarriages.

It becomes VERY relevant when, at the point abortions are legal, the chance of term success is at best, 30-50%%, and most studies show the true rate to be less than that if you count from the time a pregnancy is determined. (as opposed to 12 weeks).


I don't think any of those things consider, for the 100th time, I'm pro-choice. For the 97th time, my issue with you is not your views on abortion (i.e. being pro-choice). My issue with you is the way you go about justifying your pro-choice stance. I have no problem with, for example, my own decision to be pro-choice or BBS's decision to be pro-choice or Symmetry's decision to be pro-choice. I don't think any women are too stupid or immoral to make the decision of what to do with something that it is attached to them. I think it is a right to privacy issue and that's that. What I don't do, and what you're doing, is making it seem like these women don't actually have a choice. They do have a choice. It's their right to make the choice they make and I'm not going to argue with them about it. I will, however, continue to argue with you about the underlying reasons for making that choice since you remain completely ignorant despite the presentation of data to the contrary.

PLAYER57832 wrote:MY Position is plain and simply that the best way to prevent abortions is to make birth control widely available and to educate adolescents well in sex education. That, alone won’t stop either teen pregnancies or abortions because some people just have different morals.


Are you passing judgment on the morals of people now? I thought you were accusing me of doing that. I think the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies (not abortions) is to educate since birth control is, in fact, widely available (go down to your local pharmacy or supermarket) and to make sure the right to choose stays legal.

As for the rest, I agree.
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Re: legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:21 pm

Symmetry wrote:Hmm, sorry TGD, but Player got you this time.


I'm not convinced you understand what we're discussing.

To sum up...

Player is pro choice
I'm pro choice
Player justifies being pro choice (for some reason) as "women have abortions to save themselves" and "most abortions are miscarriages."
My response to that is that any data I've seen states that only about 2% to 5% of abortions are to save the mother and that miscarriages are not at issue with the legality or illegality of abortion. So her justification is incredibly flawed.

Basically, Player feels the need to justify her pro-choice stance. I do not feel the need. I suspect that Player is Christian and her religion requires her to make up things to justify being pro-choice. Although I'm Catholic, I can differentiate between laws and my own religious morals (as can many other Catholics).
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Re: legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:39 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Hmm, sorry TGD, but Player got you this time.


I'm not convinced you understand what we're discussing.

To sum up...

Player is pro choice
I'm pro choice
Player justifies being pro choice (for some reason) as "women have abortions to save themselves" and "most abortions are miscarriages."
My response to that is that any data I've seen states that only about 2% to 5% of abortions are to save the mother and that miscarriages are not at issue with the legality or illegality of abortion. So her justification is incredibly flawed.

Basically, Player feels the need to justify her pro-choice stance. I do not feel the need. I suspect that Player is Christian and her religion requires her to make up things to justify being pro-choice. Although I'm Catholic, I can differentiate between laws and my own religious morals (as can many other Catholics).


I think she, like many people have problems with the way the debate is phrased. You yourself have had to clarify your meaning about "mothers' health". She is quite correct that miscarriage is abortion. It is not irrelevant to the debate at all. It has as definitionasl impact, deals with some of the contempt that anti-abortionists have toward medical terms and practice, and, of course, there's the worrying trend of that lobby towards the criminalization of women who have a miscarriage.
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Re: legal Abortion, why women have them, again..

Postby thegreekdog on Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:24 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Hmm, sorry TGD, but Player got you this time.


I'm not convinced you understand what we're discussing.

To sum up...

Player is pro choice
I'm pro choice
Player justifies being pro choice (for some reason) as "women have abortions to save themselves" and "most abortions are miscarriages."
My response to that is that any data I've seen states that only about 2% to 5% of abortions are to save the mother and that miscarriages are not at issue with the legality or illegality of abortion. So her justification is incredibly flawed.

Basically, Player feels the need to justify her pro-choice stance. I do not feel the need. I suspect that Player is Christian and her religion requires her to make up things to justify being pro-choice. Although I'm Catholic, I can differentiate between laws and my own religious morals (as can many other Catholics).


I think she, like many people have problems with the way the debate is phrased. You yourself have had to clarify your meaning about "mothers' health". She is quite correct that miscarriage is abortion. It is not irrelevant to the debate at all. It has as definitionasl impact, deals with some of the contempt that anti-abortionists have toward medical terms and practice, and, of course, there's the worrying trend of that lobby towards the criminalization of women who have a miscarriage.


Are you referring to this?

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/ ... ty-georgia

If you are, you (and motherjones) may want to rethink the use of the term "miscarriage."
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Postby Symmetry on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:58 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Hmm, sorry TGD, but Player got you this time.


I'm not convinced you understand what we're discussing.

To sum up...

Player is pro choice
I'm pro choice
Player justifies being pro choice (for some reason) as "women have abortions to save themselves" and "most abortions are miscarriages."
My response to that is that any data I've seen states that only about 2% to 5% of abortions are to save the mother and that miscarriages are not at issue with the legality or illegality of abortion. So her justification is incredibly flawed.

Basically, Player feels the need to justify her pro-choice stance. I do not feel the need. I suspect that Player is Christian and her religion requires her to make up things to justify being pro-choice. Although I'm Catholic, I can differentiate between laws and my own religious morals (as can many other Catholics).


I think she, like many people have problems with the way the debate is phrased. You yourself have had to clarify your meaning about "mothers' health". She is quite correct that miscarriage is abortion. It is not irrelevant to the debate at all. It has as definitionasl impact, deals with some of the contempt that anti-abortionists have toward medical terms and practice, and, of course, there's the worrying trend of that lobby towards the criminalization of women who have a miscarriage.


Are you referring to this?

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/ ... ty-georgia

If you are, you (and motherjones) may want to rethink the use of the term "miscarriage."


I'm not sure what your point is. Surely the article proves that miscarriage is an important part of the debate, rather than, as you stated "not an issue".
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