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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated so far)

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:05 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:A little different perspective on the gun-control issue. Actually I posted this back in 2008. I re-post it here with just a few minor edits for clarity.

One person shows his statistics proving that more relaxed gun control lowers crime, the other posts his stats proving that it increases gun deaths. Thereā€™s probably some truth to both. What weā€™re missing is the underlying social and political issue. Whatever segment of the population feels that they canā€™t trust the government to protect them, or that itā€™s the government from which they need to be protected, wants their own guns.


Certainly, this is all true, I think. Don't forget hunters and collectors as gun enthusiasts too, though I suppose many times they fall under one or the other.

A troubled justice and penal system quickly returns violent criminals to society unchanged, except that they are more hardened and bitter, and more trained in crime.


This is absolutely a very serious problem. America's justice and penal systems are frankly disgusting.

The DCF can take your children on an anonymous malicious accusation.


While this can still be a problem, I do believe that this particular situation is improving a great deal. The biggest problem here is that the state Human Services folks are usually pretty overwhelmed by their caseloads.

Candidates for the Supreme Court are summarily dismissed by a sufficiently large liberal block in the Senate if their religious beliefs lead them to the pro-life stance held by approximately half the population.


The same thing happens in the other direction with other issues, of course. This certainly isn't a liberal problem.

The ā€œRICOā€ organized crime laws are brought to bear on peaceful demonstrators because of a few wackos who commit violence against abortion clinics, creating a situation where ā€œan 80-year-old grandmother praying a rosary on the sidewalk is now a gangster.ā€


When was the last time something like this happened to a peaceful abortion protestor? I'm not saying it doesn't still happen...I'm honestly ignorant of it.

Again though, this certainly happens in the other direction, as we saw with the Occupy Wall Street protests. This is hardly a "only conservatives" situation. In fact, this is more of a "protection of the citizens" problem than it is a situation outside of abortion clinics, as this individual is attempting to portray.

As a teacher I could be fired for mentioning my beliefs in class, but if I were so inclined I could rattle off an entire class period about the spirits in the rocks and trees, because that is ā€œmulti-culturalā€ and ā€œenvironmental.ā€


This REALLY isn't true. You could be fired for the second instance just as easily.

Deal with these issues, and the demands of many to have assault rifles, without the government's knowledge, will subside.


I don't see what the statement above about the Supreme Court Justices' abortion stances or the teacher firing have to do with the demand for assault rifles, to be honest. Those both seem like chasmically large leaps, really.

Honestly, I believe that if we were to correct our justice and penal issues, this would make the most difference of ANYTHING POSITIVE in our entire society.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated so far)

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Phatscotty wrote:All I can see here is you running from your own comments


No, that would be you.

Phatscotty wrote:I thought you wanted to go deeper, not to the shallow kiddie pool?


You never go deeper, Phatscotty. All you ever do is offer up vague generalities, sound bites, and video clips without ever delving into the issues in a serious way at all. Nobody expects you go deeper any longer, because when anyone at all asks you deeper questions, you either ignore them entirely or you again offer up vague generalities, sound bites, or a video clip.

You have proven over time to have no interest at all in serious discussion.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:05 pm

oVo wrote:Going deeper? All the vote did is.....


I wasn't talking about the vote, I was pinning down Oogey to explain something he said

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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:50 am

oVo wrote:Going deeper? All the vote did is prove once again that our elected officials in the Capitol represent deep pocketed special interests and not the voters who sent them to Washington.


Or they knew they wouldn't get sent back to Washington come reelection time.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:24 am

Another way to look at this through the reality glasses, is that hardcore Lefties are demanding those Democrat Senators vote against the will of their own constituents, especially when they say something like "If you lose your seat, so be it! At least you took a stand!" ... yeah, a stand against the will of the people that sent you to Washington to represent them.

Some might call that stabbing your own state in the back.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:32 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Another way to look at this through the reality glasses, is that hardcore Lefties are demanding those Democrat Senators vote against the will of their own constituents, especially when they say something like "If you lose your seat, so be it! At least you took a stand!" ... yeah, a stand against the will of the people that sent you to Washington to represent them.

Some might call that stabbing your own state in the back.


Well at least you've got Michelle Bachmann to represent you, Phatscotty. I'm sure you're quite proud of her.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated so far)

Postby daddy1gringo on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:44 pm

Woodruff wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:A little different perspective on the gun-control issue. Actually I posted this back in 2008. I re-post it here with just a few minor edits for clarity.

One person shows his statistics proving that more relaxed gun control lowers crime, the other posts his stats proving that it increases gun deaths. Thereā€™s probably some truth to both. What weā€™re missing is the underlying social and political issue. Whatever segment of the population feels that they canā€™t trust the government to protect them, or that itā€™s the government from which they need to be protected, wants their own guns.


Certainly, this is all true, I think. Don't forget hunters and collectors as gun enthusiasts too, though I suppose many times they fall under one or the other.

A troubled justice and penal system quickly returns violent criminals to society unchanged, except that they are more hardened and bitter, and more trained in crime.


This is absolutely a very serious problem. America's justice and penal systems are frankly disgusting.

The DCF can take your children on an anonymous malicious accusation.


While this can still be a problem, I do believe that this particular situation is improving a great deal. The biggest problem here is that the state Human Services folks are usually pretty overwhelmed by their caseloads.

Candidates for the Supreme Court are summarily dismissed by a sufficiently large liberal block in the Senate if their religious beliefs lead them to the pro-life stance held by approximately half the population.


The same thing happens in the other direction with other issues, of course. This certainly isn't a liberal problem.

The ā€œRICOā€ organized crime laws are brought to bear on peaceful demonstrators because of a few wackos who commit violence against abortion clinics, creating a situation where ā€œan 80-year-old grandmother praying a rosary on the sidewalk is now a gangster.ā€


When was the last time something like this happened to a peaceful abortion protestor? I'm not saying it doesn't still happen...I'm honestly ignorant of it.

Again though, this certainly happens in the other direction, as we saw with the Occupy Wall Street protests. This is hardly a "only conservatives" situation. In fact, this is more of a "protection of the citizens" problem than it is a situation outside of abortion clinics, as this individual is attempting to portray.
Hmm. Guess I didn't make it clear that "this individual" is me.

As a teacher I could be fired for mentioning my beliefs in class, but if I were so inclined I could rattle off an entire class period about the spirits in the rocks and trees, because that is ā€œmulti-culturalā€ and ā€œenvironmental.ā€


This REALLY isn't true. You could be fired for the second instance just as easily.

Deal with these issues, and the demands of many to have assault rifles, without the government's knowledge, will subside.


I don't see what the statement above about the Supreme Court Justices' abortion stances or the teacher firing have to do with the demand for assault rifles, to be honest. Those both seem like chasmically large leaps, really.
OK, let me explain that. Those on the right see things as moving in a direction that their voices are being increasingly marginalized and silenced, and government is turning against them. It's a pattern and a trend. One part of my quote that you left out talks about how similar things used to happen the other way 'round, but I see the pattern that, although some of those may still happen, they are decreasing, and the type I am talking about is increasing. Now maybe my particular point of view makes me see this pattern where it is not, or maybe yours makes you not see it where it is (is there such a thing as "or maybe some of both" in this case?).

In any event, what I am talking about is perception. I think those who will not accept gun control see this pattern as I do. The only difference is that I don't necessarily think that having your own weapons cache is the answer. I am banking on prayer, and on trying to win as many people as possible to what I consider truth and sanity, by means of reason and love.

Honestly, I believe that if we were to correct our justice and penal issues, this would make the most difference of ANYTHING POSITIVE in our entire society.
Well we agree on that. I guess since I'm talking about the perception of the gun-lobby people, they would say that the problem is the liberal judges being more concerned for the rights of the criminals than of the victims or law-enforcement, or just the average populace that needs to be protected. I don't consider myself qualified to debate that, but it seems there is at least some truth in it. Prison never had a good record of changing lives for the better, but it seems that the liberalizations at least have not helped.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated so far)

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:32 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:Hmm. Guess I didn't make it clear that "this individual" is me.


Oh. <grin> Re-reading it, I guess it should have been obvious to me. For some reason that I can't really specify, I took it as "a reposting you made from someone else's article from a few years back". So I'd call that "my bad", sorry.

daddy1gringo wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I don't see what the statement above about the Supreme Court Justices' abortion stances or the teacher firing have to do with the demand for assault rifles, to be honest. Those both seem like chasmically large leaps, really.


OK, let me explain that. Those on the right see things as moving in a direction that their voices are being increasingly marginalized and silenced, and government is turning against them. It's a pattern and a trend. One part of my quote that you left out talks about how similar things used to happen the other way 'round, but I see the pattern that, although some of those may still happen, they are decreasing, and the type I am talking about is increasing. Now maybe my particular point of view makes me see this pattern where it is not, or maybe yours makes you not see it where it is (is there such a thing as "or maybe some of both" in this case?).


Actually I can see where a conservative might believe that, and it's probably true. My perspective on that particular situation is that it is because the conservative viewpoint on a number of issues (certainly not all of them by any means, and probably only the extreme version of the anti-gun-control view as far as this specific issue goes) is simply becoming "distasteful" for a majority of the people. I guess I'm saying that the viewpoint on a particular issue may be getting marginalized, rather than the voice of the conservative itself.

daddy1gringo wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Honestly, I believe that if we were to correct our justice and penal issues, this would make the most difference of ANYTHING POSITIVE in our entire society.


Well we agree on that. I guess since I'm talking about the perception of the gun-lobby people, they would say that the problem is the liberal judges being more concerned for the rights of the criminals than of the victims or law-enforcement, or just the average populace that needs to be protected. I don't consider myself qualified to debate that, but it seems there is at least some truth in it. Prison never had a good record of changing lives for the better, but it seems that the liberalizations at least have not helped.


Yeah. If our prisons weren't becoming more and more of a for-profit system (funded largely via the War on Drugs), and if the rehabilitation of prisoners were taken far more as a necessity rather than an imposition, I think it could really change things as far as our crime rates go. But as you say, that's definitely a different topic.

As far as the "rights of criminals", I think that judges should lean toward the rights of criminals in the sense of ensuring that those who are accused really are guilty. That may not be what you're referring to though, because I suspect you agree with me as far as that goes.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby ooge on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:28 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
oVo wrote:Going deeper? All the vote did is.....


I wasn't talking about the vote, I was pinning down Oogey to explain something he said

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There was an election your Ideas were rejected,congress has a low approval rating because the will of the people is still be blocked by the "noisy minority" that refuses to acknowledge their ideas were rejected in this last election.any conversation with someone of your "ilk" would go the way this one did..http://gocl.me/YyGOGF
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:43 pm

ooge wrote:There was an election your Ideas were rejected,congress has a low approval rating because the will of the people is still be blocked by the "noisy minority" that refuses to acknowledge their ideas were rejected in this last election.any conversation with someone of your "ilk" would go the way this one did..http://gocl.me/YyGOGF


If it was rejected, why are there still conservatives who got elected?
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby ooge on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:54 pm

Night Strike wrote:
ooge wrote:There was an election your Ideas were rejected,congress has a low approval rating because the will of the people is still be blocked by the "noisy minority" that refuses to acknowledge their ideas were rejected in this last election.any conversation with someone of your "ilk" would go the way this one did..http://gocl.me/YyGOGF


If it was rejected, why are there still conservatives who got elected?


:lol: more Americans voted for a Democratically controlled house by over 2 million votes,that is not what the American people ended up with though. So the American people overwhelming reelected Barack Obama,and They voted for a Democratically controlled senate. You tell me if that is one set of ideas being rejected by the public.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:58 pm

um, that's not really how it works....

and Obama got 10 million fewer votes in 2012 than 2008. Overwhelming?
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:08 pm

ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
oVo wrote:Going deeper? All the vote did is.....


I wasn't talking about the vote, I was pinning down Oogey to explain something he said

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There was an election your Ideas were rejected,congress has a low approval rating because the will of the people is still be blocked by the "noisy minority" that refuses to acknowledge their ideas were rejected in this last election.any conversation with someone of your "ilk" would go the way this one did..http://gocl.me/YyGOGF


The Tea Party gained seats, in the house and in the senate.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:39 pm

Night Strike wrote:
ooge wrote:There was an election your Ideas were rejected,congress has a low approval rating because the will of the people is still be blocked by the "noisy minority" that refuses to acknowledge their ideas were rejected in this last election.any conversation with someone of your "ilk" would go the way this one did..http://gocl.me/YyGOGF


If it was rejected, why are there still conservatives who got elected?


Gerrymandering is a powerful thing, but even with that, of course there will still be conservative areas.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby ooge on Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:15 pm

Phatscotty wrote:um, that's not really how it works....

and Obama got 10 million fewer votes in 2012 than 2008. Overwhelming?


yes! this is why a discussion with you is pointless,I waste to much of my time fact checking your errors http://www.smh.com.au/world/obama-poll- ... 2ca0w.html
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby ooge on Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:17 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
oVo wrote:Going deeper? All the vote did is.....


I wasn't talking about the vote, I was pinning down Oogey to explain something he said

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There was an election your Ideas were rejected,congress has a low approval rating because the will of the people is still be blocked by the "noisy minority" that refuses to acknowledge their ideas were rejected in this last election.any conversation with someone of your "ilk" would go the way this one did..http://gocl.me/YyGOGF


The Tea Party gained seats, in the house and in the senate.


and if you go to the "tea peoples" website all the congressman have had their names removed,and have not met in over a year..seems to me they are running from that label
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:38 pm

ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:um, that's not really how it works....

and Obama got 10 million fewer votes in 2012 than 2008. Overwhelming?


yes! this is why a discussion with you is pointless,I waste to much of my time fact checking your errors http://www.smh.com.au/world/obama-poll- ... 2ca0w.html


BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

and an absence of social unrest, scandal or foreign-policy disasters during his first term,


Just because the media failed to treat him like every other president doesn't mean those things did not exist.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:32 pm

correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Boston bombers both fail background checks?

why did background checks fail again?
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:37 pm

Phatscotty wrote:correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Boston bombers both fail background checks?

why did background checks fail again?


Since background checks are clearly not perfect, there is no reason at all that they should be used. Perfection or nothing!

You're so transparent it's sad.
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:39 pm

anyone else want to take a stab as to "why background checks didn't work" without irrelevant commentary or personal attacks?

background checks
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:42 pm

Phatscotty wrote:anyone else want to take a stab as to "why background checks didn't work" without irrelevant commentary or personal attacks?

background checks


Didn't you foe me? If not, why don't you answer some of the relevant questions I've asked you, coward?
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated)

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:48 pm

Phatscotty wrote:anyone else want to take a stab as to "why background checks didn't work" without irrelevant commentary or personal attacks?

background checks


Because nearly all the denials are either false or the government doesn't prosecute.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:52 pm

What are the stats on background checks? I have been lookin and I can't find them, but roughly speaking, over the last 10 years, 70,000 people failed background checks, and only 60 people were charged with trying to illegally obtain a weapon, and only like 40 prosecutions? Sounds like there are more persecutions of voter fraud, which the same gun grabbers will swear is non-existent??

Gun control peeps seem to have soooo much faith in the gov't when it can't even enforce the most basic and common sense of gun control 101.

And for the record, I am not trying to get rid of background checks. I am asking if they actually work or not, and if so, how effective are they?

Both of the Boston bombers failed a background check, and so did Adam Lanza/Sandy Hook.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby ooge on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:14 am

Phatscotty wrote:What are the stats on background checks? I have been lookin and I can't find them, but roughly speaking, over the last 10 years, 70,000 people failed background checks, and only 60 people were charged with trying to illegally obtain a weapon, and only like 40 prosecutions? Sounds like there are more persecutions of voter fraud, which the same gun grabbers will swear is non-existent??

Gun control peeps seem to have soooo much faith in the gov't when it can't even enforce the most basic and common sense of gun control 101.

And for the record, I am not trying to get rid of background checks. I am asking if they actually work or not, and if so, how effective are they?

Both of the Boston bombers failed a background check, and so did Adam Lanza/Sandy Hook.


Start sourcing your information as I have with you.The Boston situation is still to early to be commented on intelligently, the conspirousy theory rhetoric still needs to be dismissed. as far as Adam Lanza goes I believe his mother bought the weapons,you know to protect herself with,how did that work out for her?
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Re: Gun Control (all amendments defeated so far)

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:59 am

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:You may recall, I think as little of Obama as President as I did of Bush. But I guess as long as I don't think he's a dictator, I must be a fan of his?


Hey, you agree with JB, you get lumped in with JB. Didn't see you respond with a litany of Obama's abuses (like, you know, I fucking did).


I suppose if you ignore pretty much everything else I've posted about Obama, you might believe I haven't listed a great number of Obama's abuses. If you ignore pretty much everything else.

thegreekdog wrote:Ergo, you're a fan.


So now there's two Phatscotty's? Great.

thegreekdog wrote:You could have responded like this:
Spockruff wrote:You're right TGD. I'm just having a little go at Phatscotty. Obama is just as bad as Bush II, so I don't know why JB is making the comparison.


It's really quite disappointing what you've become. I saw hints of it before I left, but I didn't believe. I guess all good things really do die.


Nah, I'm just sick of the bullshit. I'm sorry you're disappointed in what I've become. Brings a tear to my eye. I should clarify, your argument style brings a tear to my eye.
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