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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:35 pm

Woodruff wrote:
I grant that's true. Now my question...does it actually matter? Are your personal firearms actually going to make ANY DIFFERENCE if the government goes full-retard-totalitarian? The idea that they would be effective against the military now is ludicrous.

There was a time when they would. I don't believe they could now.


Let's brush past the typical totalitarianism in Uhmerica arguments that others hold.

Now, do you think Americans have generally become conditioned to higher taxes and more wars over the decades?
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Re:

Postby Night Strike on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:37 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:So, tell me. What's wrong with background checks for purchasing firearms? Unless you're an ex-con (violent crimes) or something like that, I don't see why people would get their panties in a twist about it.


If the government is notified every time a gun changes ownership, then they would easily have the abilities to create a registry of gun owners. Even if they claim they would never actually build such a database. Does anyone actually believe them when they say that?


They have several such databases.

the ATF Firearms Tracing System (FTS) contains hundreds of millions of firearm tracing and registration records, and consists of several databases:
1. Multiple Sale Reports. Over 460,000 (2003) Multiple Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 - a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address - increasing by about 140,000 per year). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.[8]
2. Suspect Guns. All guns suspected of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples[citation needed]), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms, and dealers with improper record keeping. May include guns observed by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere.[citation needed] Reported as 34,807 in 2010. [8]
3. Traced Guns. Over 4 million detail records from all traces since inception.[8]This is a registration record which includes the personal information of the first retail purchaser, along with the identity of the selling dealer.
4. Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form - in digital or image format. In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968. [9]
5. Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010.[8] Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional).[8] Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
Good old Ron Reagan.


Good to know....time to get rid of them. Except for the stolen guns and possibly the suspect guns.
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Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:03 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:So, tell me. What's wrong with background checks for purchasing firearms? Unless you're an ex-con (violent crimes) or something like that, I don't see why people would get their panties in a twist about it.


If the government is notified every time a gun changes ownership, then they would easily have the abilities to create a registry of gun owners. Even if they claim they would never actually build such a database. Does anyone actually believe them when they say that?


They have several such databases.

the ATF Firearms Tracing System (FTS) contains hundreds of millions of firearm tracing and registration records, and consists of several databases:
1. Multiple Sale Reports. Over 460,000 (2003) Multiple Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 - a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address - increasing by about 140,000 per year). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.[8]
2. Suspect Guns. All guns suspected of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples[citation needed]), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms, and dealers with improper record keeping. May include guns observed by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere.[citation needed] Reported as 34,807 in 2010. [8]
3. Traced Guns. Over 4 million detail records from all traces since inception.[8]This is a registration record which includes the personal information of the first retail purchaser, along with the identity of the selling dealer.
4. Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form - in digital or image format. In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968. [9]
5. Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010.[8] Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional).[8] Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
Good old Ron Reagan.


Good to know....time to get rid of them. Except for the stolen guns and possibly the suspect guns.


Get rid of the databases, or the guns?
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Baron Von PWN on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:05 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:I put not really. Mainly due to in the American context, guns being so readily available that anyone who really wants a gun can get one illegally. Either through theft or the black market.

I think the answer would be to reduce the supply of guns, which gun control laws might accomplish by reducing legitimate buyers,(legal hurdles ect) which in turn might reduce the amount of guns produced leading to a lower supply of guns available to the black market.


=D> I did too.

Fortunately, reducing arms is a restriction on our right to bear arms. It would be like reducing voting locations.

The overall answer is that we need to fix our culture. Why doesn't anyone want to seem to do that?


How do you "fix culture" what is it about american culture that needs fixing which would make an abundance of guns not a problem?
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Night Strike on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:11 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:How do you "fix culture" what is it about american culture that needs fixing which would make an abundance of guns not a problem?


The devaluation of human life and the removal of traditional, stable families are good places to start fixing.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:12 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:I put not really. Mainly due to in the American context, guns being so readily available that anyone who really wants a gun can get one illegally. Either through theft or the black market.

I think the answer would be to reduce the supply of guns, which gun control laws might accomplish by reducing legitimate buyers,(legal hurdles ect) which in turn might reduce the amount of guns produced leading to a lower supply of guns available to the black market.


=D> I did too.

Fortunately, reducing arms is a restriction on our right to bear arms. It would be like reducing voting locations.

The overall answer is that we need to fix our culture. Why doesn't anyone want to seem to do that?


How do you "fix culture"


Well, for one and most pertinent to the discussion here, we can do a LOT better in teaching our children "thou shall not kill"....agree so far?
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Baron Von PWN on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:15 pm

Night Strike/Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:How do you "fix culture" what is it about american culture that needs fixing which would make an abundance of guns not a problem?


The devaluation of human life and the removal of traditional, stable families are good places to start fixing.

Well, for one and most pertinent to the discussion here, we can do a LOT better in teaching our children "thou shall not kill"....agree so far?


Ok how do you do that? Shout "Don't kill people!" at children repeatedly? Ban divorce so couples are forced to stay together?
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:18 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:
Night Strike/Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:How do you "fix culture" what is it about american culture that needs fixing which would make an abundance of guns not a problem?


The devaluation of human life and the removal of traditional, stable families are good places to start fixing.

Well, for one and most pertinent to the discussion here, we can do a LOT better in teaching our children "thou shall not kill"....agree so far?


Ok how do you do that? Shout "Don't kill people!" at children repeatedly? Ban divorce so couples are forced to stay together?


We teach it, just like we would teach anything else. I'm sure there are ways to teach besides shouting.

Have you been drinking or something? Where is the tude coming from?
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Woodruff on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:20 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:So, tell me. What's wrong with background checks for purchasing firearms? Unless you're an ex-con (violent crimes) or something like that, I don't see why people would get their panties in a twist about it.


If the government is notified every time a gun changes ownership, then they would easily have the abilities to create a registry of gun owners. Even if they claim they would never actually build such a database. Does anyone actually believe them when they say that?


I grant that's true. Now my question...does it actually matter? Are your personal firearms actually going to make ANY DIFFERENCE if the government goes full-retard-totalitarian? The idea that they would be effective against the military now is ludicrous.

There was a time when they would. I don't believe they could now.


So the answer is to just let them take away all the guns?


Boy, you jumped to full-retard quick. Where did I say anything of the sort, Night Strike? Would you like to discuss the issue rationally, or would you like to continue with your terror-induced coma for a while first?

Night Strike wrote:Your response just demonstrates why there should be fewer gun restrictions, not more of them.


No it doesn't. Please explain how my response demonstrates any such thing, Night Strike.

Night Strike wrote:Besides, as others have mentioned (on this site and others), the citizens only have to demonstrate they will fight if necessary in order for many members of the military to ignore such unlawful orders of turning against the citizens.


See, here's what you don't get. I know that. I was in the military, and there's no question in my mind that a portion of the military would go against such orders. That being said, it STILL DOESN'T MATTER. That military equipment is what would be necessary. As I said before, the idea that your personal firearms are going to be effective against the military using military equipment is ludicrous.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Woodruff on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:22 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:I put not really. Mainly due to in the American context, guns being so readily available that anyone who really wants a gun can get one illegally. Either through theft or the black market.

I think the answer would be to reduce the supply of guns, which gun control laws might accomplish by reducing legitimate buyers,(legal hurdles ect) which in turn might reduce the amount of guns produced leading to a lower supply of guns available to the black market.


=D> I did too.

Fortunately, reducing arms is a restriction on our right to bear arms. It would be like reducing voting locations.

The overall answer is that we need to fix our culture. Why doesn't anyone want to seem to do that?


How do you "fix culture" what is it about american culture that needs fixing which would make an abundance of guns not a problem?


1. Go back to Christian ideals.
2. Get rid of the homosexuals and liberals.
3. Profit.

Night Strike wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:How do you "fix culture" what is it about american culture that needs fixing which would make an abundance of guns not a problem?


The devaluation of human life and the removal of traditional, stable families are good places to start fixing.


Bingo.

Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:How do you "fix culture"


Well, for one and most pertinent to the discussion here, we can do a LOT better in teaching our children "thou shall not kill"....agree so far?


Imagine that.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Woodruff on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:25 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:
Night Strike/Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:How do you "fix culture" what is it about american culture that needs fixing which would make an abundance of guns not a problem?


The devaluation of human life and the removal of traditional, stable families are good places to start fixing.

Well, for one and most pertinent to the discussion here, we can do a LOT better in teaching our children "thou shall not kill"....agree so far?


Ok how do you do that? Shout "Don't kill people!" at children repeatedly? Ban divorce so couples are forced to stay together?


We teach it, just like we would teach anything else. I'm sure there are ways to teach besides shouting.

Have you been drinking or something? Where is the tude coming from?


I'm just curious as to why you believe our children aren't being taught not to kill. Is seems ludicrous on the face of it.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Night Strike on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:56 pm

Woodruff wrote:I'm just curious as to why you believe our children aren't being taught not to kill. Is seems ludicrous on the face of it.


They're taught that abortion is perfectly acceptable. Doesn't seem so ludicrous.

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:So, tell me. What's wrong with background checks for purchasing firearms? Unless you're an ex-con (violent crimes) or something like that, I don't see why people would get their panties in a twist about it.


If the government is notified every time a gun changes ownership, then they would easily have the abilities to create a registry of gun owners. Even if they claim they would never actually build such a database. Does anyone actually believe them when they say that?


I grant that's true. Now my question...does it actually matter? Are your personal firearms actually going to make ANY DIFFERENCE if the government goes full-retard-totalitarian? The idea that they would be effective against the military now is ludicrous.

There was a time when they would. I don't believe they could now.


So the answer is to just let them take away all the guns?


Boy, you jumped to full-retard quick. Where did I say anything of the sort, Night Strike? Would you like to discuss the issue rationally, or would you like to continue with your terror-induced coma for a while first?


But that's where we end up, so why not just start the discussion there? More background checks are the "rational" step to do, yet it won't accomplish anything. The next "rational" step will be to ban semi-automatic rifles that look like military weapons, yet that won't accomplish anything. Then we'll ban large magazines, then we'll ban handguns, then we'll ban shotguns and long rifles, then we'll take away guns that are already owned.

What we truly need are harsh punishments for those who murder. Including removing all of this nonsense about the mass murderers being too mentally ill to stand trial. They were coherent enough to plan their attacks, that means they're coherent enough to answer the charges and go to jail if convicted (although I prefer death penalty). Let's focus on punishing the criminals, not all gun owners.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:12 pm

Night Strike wrote:What we truly need are harsh punishments for those who murder. Including removing all of this nonsense about the mass murderers being too mentally ill to stand trial. They were coherent enough to plan their attacks, that means they're coherent enough to answer the charges and go to jail if convicted (although I prefer death penalty). Let's focus on punishing the criminals, not all gun owners.


No, dude, that's not really how mental illness works.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby muy_thaiguy on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:59 pm

Night Strike wrote:What we truly need are harsh punishments for those who murder. Including removing all of this nonsense about the mass murderers being too mentally ill to stand trial. They were coherent enough to plan their attacks, that means they're coherent enough to answer the charges and go to jail if convicted (although I prefer death penalty). Let's focus on punishing the criminals, not all gun owners.

I'm really not sure where this is coming from. Sociopaths and psychopaths are put on trial for murders. Terrorists are put on trial for murders (if they can be brought in alive). People who have actual illnesses like schezophrenia and what not, actual diseases, are the ones who are found to be mentally ill. They are often sent to psychiatric hospitals in order to be treated for their illnesses. But otherwise, yes, mass murderers are put on trial.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:23 am

The Voice wrote:As an aside, TheGreekDog, your implication(s) that Woodruff is Juan_Bottom, and Woodruff, your implication(s) that TGD is Phatscotty only make you both look more like the person you're being labeled as. I guess what I'm saying is stop it. Neither of you are as nearly as bad as either of the others. Actually, I quite like reading your posts when they're not being used to egg on the another. I skip past the posts made by PS and JB and move right along to yours because I feel like I can learn something true.


I was not referring to Woodruff as Juan Bottom. I was indicated that he agrees with Juan Bottom and that seems stupid.

In any event... thanks! I have enjoyed this forum for more than a few years.
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