Gun Control

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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby patches70 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:11 am

Baron Von PWN wrote: Ban divorce so couples are forced to stay together?


Lordy, that would only triple, no quadruple the homicide rate!
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:16 am

Can someone explain to me how background checks would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre? I would also appreciate an explanation of how the Assault Weapons Ban would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre. I mean, Rachel Maddow did a good job describing how we could only have witnessed the killing of 20 kids instead of 40 if only the killer had less ammunition, but my understanding is that none of the currently contemplated laws have that.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Baron Von PWN on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:58 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:
Night Strike/Phatscotty wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:How do you "fix culture" what is it about american culture that needs fixing which would make an abundance of guns not a problem?


The devaluation of human life and the removal of traditional, stable families are good places to start fixing.

Well, for one and most pertinent to the discussion here, we can do a LOT better in teaching our children "thou shall not kill"....agree so far?


Ok how do you do that? Shout "Don't kill people!" at children repeatedly? Ban divorce so couples are forced to stay together?


We teach it, just like we would teach anything else. I'm sure there are ways to teach besides shouting.

Have you been drinking or something? Where is the tude coming from?


The attitude is due to your proposed problems and solutions are silly.

I don't think telling people not to kill people will help prevent these things from happening. I think its already pretty well understood killing people is not acceptable.

Similarly I don't see how bringing back the "traditional" family would fix anything, or even how you would bring back the traditional family.

"Ok women you having jobs and careers has caused society to be all fucked up back to the kitchen with you!"

Finally violent crime is half what it was in 1991, and has continued to drop despite the recession. Maybe we are doing something right.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby muy_thaiguy on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:15 am

thegreekdog wrote:Can someone explain to me how background checks would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre? I would also appreciate an explanation of how the Assault Weapons Ban would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre. I mean, Rachel Maddow did a good job describing how we could only have witnessed the killing of 20 kids instead of 40 if only the killer had less ammunition, but my understanding is that none of the currently contemplated laws have that.

Not arguing about magazine size or anything like that (that's a whole different animal anyway), or that some crimes wouldn't happen. Or even assault rifle bans (though, unless a gun collector, or practice range, why have an assault rifle? Because some talk show hack said so?) But if done properly, background checks very well could prevent many crimes from happening otherwise. At the very least, it wouldn't hurt anything unless you are a high risk threat (mental disease or defect/violent (former) convict), in which case it would not be sold to you. In such cases, I don't see the problem here.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:42 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Can someone explain to me how background checks would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre? I would also appreciate an explanation of how the Assault Weapons Ban would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre. I mean, Rachel Maddow did a good job describing how we could only have witnessed the killing of 20 kids instead of 40 if only the killer had less ammunition, but my understanding is that none of the currently contemplated laws have that.

Not arguing about magazine size or anything like that (that's a whole different animal anyway), or that some crimes wouldn't happen. Or even assault rifle bans (though, unless a gun collector, or practice range, why have an assault rifle? Because some talk show hack said so?) But if done properly, background checks very well could prevent many crimes from happening otherwise. At the very least, it wouldn't hurt anything unless you are a high risk threat (mental disease or defect/violent (former) convict), in which case it would not be sold to you. In such cases, I don't see the problem here.


I'm in favor of background checks, I'm just concerned about the relative expectations of the general public with respect to any Congressional bills that are passed and signed. There should not be an expectation that if assault weapons were banned or bacgrkound checks strengthened, we'll all be safe from future Sandy Hooks.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:45 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I'm just curious as to why you believe our children aren't being taught not to kill. Is seems ludicrous on the face of it.


They're taught that abortion is perfectly acceptable. Doesn't seem so ludicrous.


Your statement right there is ludicrous. I have NEVER (NOT ONCE) heard anyone say that abortion is "perfectly acceptable". In fact, I believe the most complimentary phrase I've heard regarding "abortion" would be "necessary in this case". That's hardly teaching someone to do it.

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:So, tell me. What's wrong with background checks for purchasing firearms? Unless you're an ex-con (violent crimes) or something like that, I don't see why people would get their panties in a twist about it.


If the government is notified every time a gun changes ownership, then they would easily have the abilities to create a registry of gun owners. Even if they claim they would never actually build such a database. Does anyone actually believe them when they say that?


I grant that's true. Now my question...does it actually matter? Are your personal firearms actually going to make ANY DIFFERENCE if the government goes full-retard-totalitarian? The idea that they would be effective against the military now is ludicrous.

There was a time when they would. I don't believe they could now.


So the answer is to just let them take away all the guns?


Boy, you jumped to full-retard quick. Where did I say anything of the sort, Night Strike? Would you like to discuss the issue rationally, or would you like to continue with your terror-induced coma for a while first?


But that's where we end up, so why not just start the discussion there? More background checks are the "rational" step to do, yet it won't accomplish anything. The next "rational" step will be to ban semi-automatic rifles that look like military weapons, yet that won't accomplish anything. Then we'll ban large magazines, then we'll ban handguns, then we'll ban shotguns and long rifles, then we'll take away guns that are already owned.

What we truly need are harsh punishments for those who murder. Including removing all of this nonsense about the mass murderers being too mentally ill to stand trial. They were coherent enough to plan their attacks, that means they're coherent enough to answer the charges and go to jail if convicted (although I prefer death penalty). Let's focus on punishing the criminals, not all gun owners.


It would have been easier for you to just respond to my question with "I'd like to continue with my terror-induced coma for a while first, thank you".
Last edited by Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:48 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Can someone explain to me how background checks would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre? I would also appreciate an explanation of how the Assault Weapons Ban would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre. I mean, Rachel Maddow did a good job describing how we could only have witnessed the killing of 20 kids instead of 40 if only the killer had less ammunition, but my understanding is that none of the currently contemplated laws have that.


The simple answer is that they wouldn't have. But I don't believe anyone is advocating that gun control laws are some sort of a "golden bullet" (pardon the expression). It doesn't make sense to me that a solution must work in all instances or we can't implement it.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:00 pm

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Can someone explain to me how background checks would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre? I would also appreciate an explanation of how the Assault Weapons Ban would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre. I mean, Rachel Maddow did a good job describing how we could only have witnessed the killing of 20 kids instead of 40 if only the killer had less ammunition, but my understanding is that none of the currently contemplated laws have that.


The simple answer is that they wouldn't have. But I don't believe anyone is advocating that gun control laws are some sort of a "golden bullet" (pardon the expression). It doesn't make sense to me that a solution must work in all instances or we can't implement it.


I don't disagree.

Again, my concern here is twofold.

First, any gun control law that is passed show be at least marginally effective.

I think strengthening background checks will be marginally effective as it will ensure that those who have objectionable backgrounds cannot purchase weapons. However, those people can still get weapons illegally and therefore I use the term "marginally effective." For example, in Philadelphia in 2011, over 80% of murders were committed by gun and 60% were committed by people who had previous arrests for violent crimes (and who would thus fail a background check). The Mayor indicated that the biggest issue regarding violence in Philadelphia was the ability of people to purchase guns illegally.

http://www.thedp.com/article/2013/01/ef ... nce-abound

So, marginally effective.

I think banning the sale of assault weapons is ineffective, mainly for reasons already stated (i.e. only semi-automatics that look like automatics are banned).

Thus, we have two laws that, together, may be marginally effective (at best) and completely ineffective (at worst). So, we're getting our hopes up and spending money for no really good reasons (or, alternatively, arguing vociferously against these laws and spending money for no really good reasons).

Second, the politics of this entire issue are frustrating. On the one hand you have the president and members of Congress politicizing these bills as being effective. They aren't effective. On the other hand you have members of Congress politicizing these bills as being unconstitutional. They aren't unconstitutional (and aren't effective anyway). Frustrating.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby comic boy on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:43 pm

Night Strike thinks children need to be taught not to kill people , then he states that he supports the Death Penalty......... :roll:
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:30 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Can someone explain to me how background checks would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre? I would also appreciate an explanation of how the Assault Weapons Ban would have stopped the Sandy Hook massacre. I mean, Rachel Maddow did a good job describing how we could only have witnessed the killing of 20 kids instead of 40 if only the killer had less ammunition, but my understanding is that none of the currently contemplated laws have that.


The simple answer is that they wouldn't have. But I don't believe anyone is advocating that gun control laws are some sort of a "golden bullet" (pardon the expression). It doesn't make sense to me that a solution must work in all instances or we can't implement it.


I don't disagree.

Again, my concern here is twofold.

First, any gun control law that is passed show be at least marginally effective.


Absolutely. As with any law, hopefully.

thegreekdog wrote:I think strengthening background checks will be marginally effective as it will ensure that those who have objectionable backgrounds cannot purchase weapons. However, those people can still get weapons illegally and therefore I use the term "marginally effective."


Sure, I agree with that. Basically, it makes things more of a pain in the ass for them to do, and MAYBE convinces some of them to not bother. I think that's a worthy goal.

thegreekdog wrote:I think banning the sale of assault weapons is ineffective, mainly for reasons already stated (i.e. only semi-automatics that look like automatics are banned).


I tend to think bans of any sort are ineffective. Prohibition, anyone?

thegreekdog wrote:Second, the politics of this entire issue are frustrating. On the one hand you have the president and members of Congress politicizing these bills as being effective. They aren't effective. On the other hand you have members of Congress politicizing these bills as being unconstitutional. They aren't unconstitutional (and aren't effective anyway). Frustrating.


Indeed.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby greenoaks on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:44 pm

did anyone see part 1 of the Gun Debate interview by John Oliver on The Daily Show?

background checks and a ban on assault weapons has been attempted by a nation and has been successful.

Australia has had ZERO massacres since, murders involving a gun halved, teenage suicides slashed.

if you think you shouldn't have background checks because criminals will bypass them, why do you have any laws at all?
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby mizery24 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:52 pm

Forget guns! What about background checks for pressure cookers?
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:55 pm

mizery24 wrote:Forget guns! What about background checks for pressure cookers?


Haha, my first thought was hunting deer with a pressure cooker.

BMO
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby mizery24 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:03 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:
mizery24 wrote:Forget guns! What about background checks for pressure cookers?


Haha, my first thought was hunting deer with a pressure cooker.

BMO



Might work well, all you need is a pressure cooker bomb, corn, and a cell phone!
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:53 pm

greenoaks wrote:did anyone see part 1 of the Gun Debate interview by John Oliver on The Daily Show?

background checks and a ban on assault weapons has been attempted by a nation and has been successful.

Australia has had ZERO massacres since, murders involving a gun halved, teenage suicides slashed.

if you think you shouldn't have background checks because criminals will bypass them, why do you have any laws at all?


Well, we do have laws, including background checks. The Sandy Hook massacre was committed by a man who would not have passed a background check and would not have been able to purchase a gun. Instead, he stole the guns from his mother (and killed her). In other words, he illegally obtained the guns. As indicated above, 50% to 80% of gun murders that occur in Philadelphia are committed with guns that were obtained illegally.

An assault weapons ban, like the US had in the 1990s and early 2000s, would ban (for the 10th fucking time) semi-automatic weapons that look like automatic weapons. In other words, you can buy the same weapon as long as it doesn't look like an automatic weapon.

In sum... the laws that we currently have are as effective as they can be and the laws being proposed will not add any effectiveness.

In further sum, Chicago and DC have among the highest murder rates in the United States... and they have the strictest gun control laws.

In final sum, I don't know what to tell you dude. What works in Australia apparently doesn't work in the United States.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby greenoaks on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:03 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
greenoaks wrote:did anyone see part 1 of the Gun Debate interview by John Oliver on The Daily Show?

background checks and a ban on assault weapons has been attempted by a nation and has been successful.

Australia has had ZERO massacres since, murders involving a gun halved, teenage suicides slashed.

if you think you shouldn't have background checks because criminals will bypass them, why do you have any laws at all?


Well, we do have laws, including background checks. The Sandy Hook massacre was committed by a man who would not have passed a background check and would not have been able to purchase a gun. Instead, he stole the guns from his mother (and killed her). In other words, he illegally obtained the guns. As indicated above, 50% to 80% of gun murders that occur in Philadelphia are committed with guns that were obtained illegally.

An assault weapons ban, like the US had in the 1990s and early 2000s, would ban (for the 10th fucking time) semi-automatic weapons that look like automatic weapons. In other words, you can buy the same weapon as long as it doesn't look like an automatic weapon.

In sum... the laws that we currently have are as effective as they can be and the laws being proposed will not add any effectiveness.

In further sum, Chicago and DC have among the highest murder rates in the United States... and they have the strictest gun control laws.

In final sum, I don't know what to tell you dude. What works in Australia apparently doesn't work in the United States.

you haven't tried what worked in Australia.

our leader called the leader of the National Party (farmers & country folk) to his office and gave him a deadline. tell him what a farmer requires and convince him why that gun is required. everything else was banned and a buy-back program introduced. we didn't just introduce a ban on assualt weapons, we removed a large number of hand guns too.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Lootifer on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:23 pm

To clarify here; Australia banned semi automatic weapons correct? (Not assault weapons as suggested by US govt).

Additionally as harsh as this will sound; massacres are kind of a moot point here. They are caused by mental illness and dont really have a lot to do with gun laws. What we should be looking at is the ratio between murder rate and violent crime, and then considering violent crime in general.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Night Strike on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:29 pm

Lootifer wrote:To clarify here; Australia banned semi automatic weapons correct? (Not assault weapons as suggested by US govt).


The US and state governments have been trying to ban semi-automatic weapons. They just use the term "assault weapons" to make it seem like they're only trying to ban automatic weapons, which were already banned.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:42 am

Lootifer wrote:To clarify here; Australia banned semi automatic weapons correct? (Not assault weapons as suggested by US govt).

Additionally as harsh as this will sound; massacres are kind of a moot point here. They are caused by mental illness and dont really have a lot to do with gun laws. What we should be looking at is the ratio between murder rate and violent crime, and then considering violent crime in general.


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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:34 am

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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:07 am

I'm sure by now many of you have heard about the 8th grader arrested for wearing an NRA shirt to school (yeah right... :P)



For those of you who have, you may or may not be tickled by this....

Disciplined 8th-grader Jared Marcum returned to class on Monday after being suspended from school and arrested for refusing to change his NRA t-shirt at the request of one of his teachers. The shirt apparently pictured a firearm and the words “protect your rights.”

However, he apparently hasn’t learned his lesson — assuming that there was even any lesson to be learned. Fresh off his suspension, Marcum showed up to school on Monday wearing the exact same NRA shirt that sparked what many have labeled “t-shirt control.”

There were also other people wearing matching shirts in support of Marcum, WOWK-TV reports.

“There’s a lot of people wearing this same exact shirt, showing great, great support and I really appreciate it,” the student said Monday before going to school.


I gotta admit, this gives me a warm fuzzy tingle running up my leg...
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby mizery24 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:51 am

greenoaks wrote:did anyone see part 1 of the Gun Debate interview by John Oliver on The Daily Show?

background checks and a ban on assault weapons has been attempted by a nation and has been successful.

Australia has had ZERO massacres since, murders involving a gun halved, teenage suicides slashed.

if you think you shouldn't have background checks because criminals will bypass them, why do you have any laws at all?



Laws are made to be broken
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby greenoaks on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:02 am

Lootifer wrote:Additionally as harsh as this will sound; massacres are kind of a moot point here. They are caused by mental illness and dont really have a lot to do with gun laws. What we should be looking at is the ratio between murder rate and violent crime, and then considering violent crime in general.

i agree, however if someone is unstable their ability to access a firearm becomes relevent.

as a wise man anti gun-control advocate once said 'american has a lot of swimming pools. children don't drown in yards without pools.'
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:09 am

greenoaks wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
greenoaks wrote:did anyone see part 1 of the Gun Debate interview by John Oliver on The Daily Show?

background checks and a ban on assault weapons has been attempted by a nation and has been successful.

Australia has had ZERO massacres since, murders involving a gun halved, teenage suicides slashed.

if you think you shouldn't have background checks because criminals will bypass them, why do you have any laws at all?


Well, we do have laws, including background checks. The Sandy Hook massacre was committed by a man who would not have passed a background check and would not have been able to purchase a gun. Instead, he stole the guns from his mother (and killed her). In other words, he illegally obtained the guns. As indicated above, 50% to 80% of gun murders that occur in Philadelphia are committed with guns that were obtained illegally.

An assault weapons ban, like the US had in the 1990s and early 2000s, would ban (for the 10th fucking time) semi-automatic weapons that look like automatic weapons. In other words, you can buy the same weapon as long as it doesn't look like an automatic weapon.

In sum... the laws that we currently have are as effective as they can be and the laws being proposed will not add any effectiveness.

In further sum, Chicago and DC have among the highest murder rates in the United States... and they have the strictest gun control laws.

In final sum, I don't know what to tell you dude. What works in Australia apparently doesn't work in the United States.

you haven't tried what worked in Australia.

our leader called the leader of the National Party (farmers & country folk) to his office and gave him a deadline. tell him what a farmer requires and convince him why that gun is required. everything else was banned and a buy-back program introduced. we didn't just introduce a ban on assualt weapons, we removed a large number of hand guns too.


Lootifer wrote:To clarify here; Australia banned semi automatic weapons correct? (Not assault weapons as suggested by US govt).

Additionally as harsh as this will sound; massacres are kind of a moot point here. They are caused by mental illness and dont really have a lot to do with gun laws. What we should be looking at is the ratio between murder rate and violent crime, and then considering violent crime in general.


Okay, but those laws aren't being proposed here guys. And that's kind of my point.

US Gun Control Advocates wrote:Oh my GOD! WE NEED TO DO THIS RIGHT NOW! We need to ban assault weapons because they cause people to do assaults on mostly children! If we ban them, we'll be safe! Please also vote for me in the next election so I can keep your family safe from assault weapon wielding psychos. Also background checks need to work better! What? Murders in Chicago? No, we don't care about that right now. We'll get to that later.


NRA Hand Wringers wrote:Oh my GOD! They are trying to take away all our guns! And by all our guns, I mean just the ones that kind of look like military-grade weapons which we could still technically use, just not as military grade weapons. Also, background checks?!?!? What the f*ck? We've had those for years and years and years, but still... they infringe upon our right to form militias... I mean individually own weapons as guaranteed by the Third Amend... wait, what's that Gary... oh right... as guaranteed by the Second Amendment.


You want to solve gun violence in the United States? Fix education. Get Democratic governors the f*ck out of large cities and install Republicans. Fix the judicial system in big cities.
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Re: Background Checks/Gun Control: Do They Work?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:56 am

Phatscotty wrote:The truth will set you free

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That's an interesting graph. Not sure how true it is (no scale for "gun violence"), but there may be a relationship between voting and gun violence. Not sure if presidential votes matter as much as voting Democratic or Republic. (Of course, what's fraudulent great about statistics is that you can keep digging until you find your desired correlation).
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