What's wrong with the world?

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What's wrong with the world?

Postby macbone on Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:49 am

I'm struggling to understand how stories like these two happen in a so-called civilized society.

From the AP:

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) -- Eight days after allegedly being sexually battered while passed out at a party, and then humiliated by online photos of the assault, 15-year-old Audrie Pott posted on Facebook that her life was ruined, "worst day ever," and hanged herself.

For the next eight months, her family struggled to figure out what happened to their soccer loving, artistic, horse crazy daughter, whose gentle smile, long dark hair and shining eyes did not bely a struggling soul.

And then on Thursday, seven months after the tragedy, a Northern California sheriff's office arrested three 16-year-old boys on charges of sexual battery.

"The family has been trying to understand why their loving daughter would have taken her life at such a young age and to make sure that those responsible would be held accountable," said family attorney Robert Allard.

"After an extensive investigation that we have conducted on behalf of the family, there is no doubt in our minds that the victim, then only 15 years old, was savagely assaulted by her fellow high school students while she lay on a bed completely unconscious."


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/ ... 2-04-42-00


APRIL 11--The FBI yesterday arrested a 39-year-old man for allegedly molesting a sleeping female passenger on an American Airlines flight en route from Miami to Regan National Airport in Virginia.

Saurabh Agarwal was named today in a felony complaint charging him with engaging in abusive sexual contact with the victim, who is identified only by her initials, “R.C.L.” Agarwal, who was born in India and lives in Sterling, Virginia, is jailed in advance of a detention hearing tomorrow afternoon in U.S. District Court in Alexandria.

In a sworn affidavit, FBI Agent David Wiegand reported that “R.C.L” was seated next to Agarwal on American Airlines Flight 1142, which departed Miami around 5:45 PM. After falling asleep following departure, the woman awoke to find Agarwal “hugging her body, with his hand inside her bra, fondling her breast.”

“Because of fear,” however, the woman “pretended to be asleep.” Wiegand noted that Agarwal “kept squeezing R.C.L.’s body tighter” and “squeezed her nipple.” The woman, who was in the window seat, told investigators that she “did not show that she was awake due to being scared of” Agarwal.

When a flight attendant approached with a refreshment cart, Agarwal “moved off the victim,” only to subsequently return to touching her as she continued to pretend to be sleeping. Agarwal, Wiegand charged, also leaned up against the woman and “pressed his legs up against R.C.L.’s legs.

The woman then said that she “needed to use the restroom, left her seat, and went to the back of the Boeing 737-800, where she told the flight crew what had happened,” Agent Wiegand reported.

A second woman, who was in the aisle seat next to Agarwal, told agents that she observed him “hugging R.C.L., smelling her, and putting his hand in her shirt.” The woman “assumed defendant and R.C.L. were traveling together,” adding that she was “irritated by the defendant’s behavior.”

The witness said that after “R.C.L.” left their row, Agarwal touched her leg, claiming he had dropped his drink. The woman, Wiegan noted, “quickly jumped up and went to the back of the plane.” There, she “observed R.C.L. crying” and realized that “Defendant and R.C.L. did not know one another.”


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/ ... ted-875631

Seriously, I'm starting to lose my faith in humanity.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby crispybits on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:04 am

The last girl that passed out in my flat after a party actually had a go at me because nothing happened afterwards and I just tucked her up in my bed and slept on the sofa. We can't win! (doesn't matter how much they've been flirting with me, and call me old fashioned if you wish, but once they pass out then that's the end of the fun until they're awake again in my book)

Glad to hear that these two cases at least the perps will face punishment.
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Postby 2dimes on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:06 am

You can choose to join in or do your best to rise above like crispy and be a better person, but this sort of thing has probably been going on since the dawn of time.

It's better now. 40 years ago most people would have just said the woman in the plane should not have been traveling alone. That sort of thing was bound to happen.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby macbone on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:03 am

Hey, you're right about that, 2dimes. Crap like this has been going on forever, and at least now women like the one on the American Airlines flight can get some justice. It just depresses the hell out of me, that's all.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:07 am

crispybits wrote:The last girl that passed out in my flat after a party actually had a go at me because nothing happened afterwards and I just tucked her up in my bed and slept on the sofa. We can't win! (doesn't matter how much they've been flirting with me, and call me old fashioned if you wish, but once they pass out then that's the end of the fun until they're awake again in my book) .

How about just leaving before someone passes out?

Sometimes you have to use basic sense.

but kudos to you for condemning the rape/asaults.
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Re:

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:10 am

2dimes wrote:You can choose to join in or do your best to rise above like crispy and be a better person, but this sort of thing has probably been going on since the dawn of time.

It's better now. 40 years ago most people would have just said the woman in the plane should not have been traveling alone. That sort of thing was bound to happen.

But not always. Both were lucky in that there were witnesses.

And, if it were a workplace or, worse yet, the military.. the result very likely would NOT have been a conviction.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:30 am

Macbone, you're exhibiting what's called "sample bias." Two examples of all of humanity is not conclusive evidence that you should even entertain the idea of 'losing your faith' in humanity.

Then, if you say something like, "well, I keep seeing these stories happen; it's such a frequent and large part of my personal observations." Then that's called confirmation bias (or selective perception). In other words, you 'see what you want to see' or you see that which you are constantly striving to confirm. Selective perception is not necessarily an explicitly conscious decision for some, but it can be self-monitored and then controlled for.

"What's wrong with this world?"
The biggest problem of humans is their cognitive bias. Arguably, it's the primary source of many of our problems.

Oh, and government is on that list too. :P
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby crispybits on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:46 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
crispybits wrote:The last girl that passed out in my flat after a party actually had a go at me because nothing happened afterwards and I just tucked her up in my bed and slept on the sofa. We can't win! (doesn't matter how much they've been flirting with me, and call me old fashioned if you wish, but once they pass out then that's the end of the fun until they're awake again in my book) .

How about just leaving before someone passes out?

Sometimes you have to use basic sense.

but kudos to you for condemning the rape/asaults.


How about we were both knocking back Sambuca shots and having a good time after everyone else left and I went to pee and by the time I came back she'd fallen asleep. In my flat. Where was I meant to go? If she'd stayed awake plenty woulda happened (but I doubt either of us would have remembered much about it), but once she was asleep I'm not gonna kick her out and I had nowhere else to go.

See, we can't win! :lol: bloomin' wimmins! :roll:
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Re:

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:52 am

2dimes wrote:You can choose to join in or do your best to rise above like crispy and be a better person, but this sort of thing has probably been going on since the dawn of time.

It's better now. 40 years ago most people would have just said the woman in the plane should not have been traveling alone. That sort of thing was bound to happen.


That's the key point I think. It's vastly better now than it ever has been before.
If you don't believe me you should either read Pinker's Better Angels of Our Nature or Sade's 120 Days of Sodom. I always get those 2 confused.
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Re: Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:23 am

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
2dimes wrote:You can choose to join in or do your best to rise above like crispy and be a better person, but this sort of thing has probably been going on since the dawn of time.

It's better now. 40 years ago most people would have just said the woman in the plane should not have been traveling alone. That sort of thing was bound to happen.


That's the key point I think. It's vastly better now than it ever has been before.
If you don't believe me you should either read Pinker's Better Angels of Our Nature or Sade's 120 Days of Sodomy. I always get those 2 confused.


IIRC, Pinker talks about declining violence, and...
Sade talks about his long vacation in Bali.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:44 am

crispybits wrote:How about we were both knocking back Sambuca shots and having a good time after everyone else left and I went to pee and by the time I came back she'd fallen asleep. In my flat. Where was I meant to go?


YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO THROW AN 8X10 PIECE OF BURLAP OVER HER, PUT ON A LAWRENCE WELK MP3 AND LECTURE HER ABOUT SOBRIETY

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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby macbone on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:04 am

Sure, BBS, I'm not claiming these incidents are increasing, or even saying they are common. I just find their existence abhorrent. We shouldn't have events like these happening in society, but we do. I know it's not enough to simply decry them and say, Oh, how terrible these things are, even though that's basically what my comments amount to.

Hong Kong has similar issues, too, although perhaps they're not reported as often. When a woman is attacked, say, walking home at 4 am in Mong Kok, it makes the news, and everyone talks about it, so that leads me to believe events like that are less common here, but they still happen. (No gun violence, but lately people have been attacked with hypodermic needles). Still, my father-in-law tells my wife not to sleep on the bus because of similar scumbags, but people invariably sleep on the bus anyway.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:20 am

Are you guys talking about the marque de Sade?
macbone wrote:Hey, you're right about that, 2dimes. Crap like this has been going on forever, and at least now women like the one on the American Airlines flight can get some justice. It just depresses the hell out of me, that's all.

You have to try to not let it get you down. I fear this gentleman business isn't going to last though. The entitlement and ignorance due to not teaching the current batch of young males any better is going to backfire big time.

Don't worry though because I heard women are equal and can take care of themselves. Teaching our sons to value, cherish and protect women is barbaric and chauvinistic.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby john9blue on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:21 am

people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.

our society isn't becoming "more moral"... we are just getting better at enforcing our collective self-interests. nothing has fundamentally changed about our motivations.

on the contrary, there's also the idea that our increasing access to other people's perspectives had caused us to more often view others as extensions of ourselves, leading to higher empathy... not sure how much merit that idea has, though.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby muy_thaiguy on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:32 am

john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.

our society isn't becoming "more moral"... we are just getting better at enforcing our collective self-interests. nothing has fundamentally changed about our motivations.

on the contrary, there's also the idea that our increasing access to other people's perspectives had caused us to more often view others as extensions of ourselves, leading to higher empathy... not sure how much merit that idea has, though.

Empathy in some, and built up "defenses" in others. For example, if you heard that 300 people died in Syria simply because they were caught in the crossfire between government and rebel forces, would you feel empathy to them or go "that's a shame" and continue whatever it was you were doing and not give it a second thought?
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby / on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:37 am

I'm sorry that you feel depressed macbone. If it make you feel better, the fact that you have a visceral reaction to the situation is a sign that humans are meant to be kind. Your body makes you feel bad as an indication that the acts you have learned of are indeed intolerable, as an innate response.

That's the wonderful thing about humans, as a social creature we are as a whole, we are largely driven towards a natural altruism just as truly as our ancestors were driven by their baser instincts.

I recall that you posted a Cracked article a while ago; did you happen to read this one yet?
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-true-stor ... -humanity/
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:08 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:Empathy in some, and built up "defenses" in others. For example, if you heard that 300 people died in Syria simply because they were caught in the crossfire between government and rebel forces, would you feel empathy to them or go "that's a shame" and continue whatever it was you were doing and not give it a second thought?


Which bring up a good point and supports.
john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.


Our lives are revolving around social media that makes us the center of the universe while dehumanizing everyone even somewhat close to ourselves.

We used to see images of the Vietnam conflict and feel empathy. Now there's no time.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:18 am

The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby notyou2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:10 am

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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:20 pm

There is probably always progress in some portion of the population. I just felt there would be a little more in everyone.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:31 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.


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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby patches70 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:57 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.


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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:34 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.


Sure, it's progress......against violence. But let me ask you somethin, possibly just for entertainment purposes.

Let's say one people thinks it's cool to butcher genitalia of their neighbors, and a neighboring people get physically sick at the thought of a rape, and the first people attack the second people. Given all things being equal (the both only have bows and arrows/both only have 50 warriors on each side etc) which people, would you speculate, are most likely to win the battle?
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:20 am

Seems possible you are over simplifying a couple of things here.

I think you're trying to suggest butchering genitalia proves a predisposition towards violence which will be useful during conflict. Possible but not certain.

Are you also suggesting that since rape culture has been found in many military groups that if you find rape repulsive you could not be a effective "warrior"?
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:59 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.


Sure, it's progress......against violence. But let me ask you somethin, possibly just for entertainment purposes.

Let's say one people thinks it's cool to butcher genitalia of their neighbors, and a neighboring people get physically sick at the thought of a rape, and the first people attack the second people. Given all things being equal (the both only have bows and arrows/both only have 50 warriors on each side etc) which people, would you speculate, are most likely to win the battle?


If the two tribes are the only ones who can possibly get involved in the conflict, then the psychopaths clearly have the advantage.

In reality however, there's always neutral third parties around. And if one of the combatants is doing something that's so far outside the moral norm of the day, the neutral third parties aren't likely to remain neutral for very long.

This is why "cultural evolution" is very important. Once the norms of most of the world population have shifted, suddenly those lagging behind have to adapt or suffer repercussions for their outdated brutality.
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