What's wrong with the world?

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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby / on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:37 am

I'm sorry that you feel depressed macbone. If it make you feel better, the fact that you have a visceral reaction to the situation is a sign that humans are meant to be kind. Your body makes you feel bad as an indication that the acts you have learned of are indeed intolerable, as an innate response.

That's the wonderful thing about humans, as a social creature we are as a whole, we are largely driven towards a natural altruism just as truly as our ancestors were driven by their baser instincts.

I recall that you posted a Cracked article a while ago; did you happen to read this one yet?
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-true-stor ... -humanity/
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:08 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:Empathy in some, and built up "defenses" in others. For example, if you heard that 300 people died in Syria simply because they were caught in the crossfire between government and rebel forces, would you feel empathy to them or go "that's a shame" and continue whatever it was you were doing and not give it a second thought?


Which bring up a good point and supports.
john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.


Our lives are revolving around social media that makes us the center of the universe while dehumanizing everyone even somewhat close to ourselves.

We used to see images of the Vietnam conflict and feel empathy. Now there's no time.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:18 am

The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby notyou2 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:10 am

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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:20 pm

There is probably always progress in some portion of the population. I just felt there would be a little more in everyone.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:31 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.


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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby patches70 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:57 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.


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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:34 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.


Sure, it's progress......against violence. But let me ask you somethin, possibly just for entertainment purposes.

Let's say one people thinks it's cool to butcher genitalia of their neighbors, and a neighboring people get physically sick at the thought of a rape, and the first people attack the second people. Given all things being equal (the both only have bows and arrows/both only have 50 warriors on each side etc) which people, would you speculate, are most likely to win the battle?
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:20 am

Seems possible you are over simplifying a couple of things here.

I think you're trying to suggest butchering genitalia proves a predisposition towards violence which will be useful during conflict. Possible but not certain.

Are you also suggesting that since rape culture has been found in many military groups that if you find rape repulsive you could not be a effective "warrior"?
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:59 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:The fact that we even acknowledge that humans half-way around the globe are actually people like us and worth empathy is a huge step forward from the times when we all thought it was cool to butcher and make trophies from the genitalia of the tribe next door.

Seriously, not so long ago seeing people tortured to death for petty offenses was entertainment. And now we feel sick at the thought that someone was raped. You have to try really hard to rationalize that as not being progress.


Sure, it's progress......against violence. But let me ask you somethin, possibly just for entertainment purposes.

Let's say one people thinks it's cool to butcher genitalia of their neighbors, and a neighboring people get physically sick at the thought of a rape, and the first people attack the second people. Given all things being equal (the both only have bows and arrows/both only have 50 warriors on each side etc) which people, would you speculate, are most likely to win the battle?


If the two tribes are the only ones who can possibly get involved in the conflict, then the psychopaths clearly have the advantage.

In reality however, there's always neutral third parties around. And if one of the combatants is doing something that's so far outside the moral norm of the day, the neutral third parties aren't likely to remain neutral for very long.

This is why "cultural evolution" is very important. Once the norms of most of the world population have shifted, suddenly those lagging behind have to adapt or suffer repercussions for their outdated brutality.
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:30 am

What if there is one tribe Population: 1,344,130,000 most don't value human life, outdated brutality is somewhat accepted, near them is a tribe Population: 141,930,000 they have a violent crime problem, a third tribe Population: 528,720,588 part of which owes the first tribe a lot of money, they used to have a huge military but now much of the overall tribe population think fire arms are bad and should be reduced or outright banned?
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:36 am

The problem is basically twofold.

First, the human soul does not exist a priori as postulated by traditional religion, but must be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation.

Second, people aren't wearing enough hats.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:37 am

Dukasaur wrote:The problem is basically twofold.

First, the human soul does not exist a priori as postulated by traditional religion, but must be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation.

Interesting point. Hadn't thought of it like that before.

Dukasaur wrote:Second, people aren't wearing enough hats.


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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby macbone on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:01 am

That's a cool story, /. Yeah, Cracked has some nice articles about very cool people who make this world a better place.

Here are pictures of the beautiful people killed in Boston:

Lu Lingzi:

Click image to enlarge.
image



Krystle Campbell:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Martin Richard:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Finally, something that makes me feel better about our future:

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Postby 2dimes on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:08 am

The kid's sign is particularly poignant. If they imprison someone those pictures should be placed in the facility.

I must mention I would be equally disgusted if ugly people were harmed.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:53 am

Where are the pictures of the unattractive/ugly people who were killed or maimed in those explosions?
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby macbone on Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:53 am

Image

This girl was a grad student in Boston. The US is often viewed by Chinese as the land of opportunity, and it's a dream of many to study abroad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... udent.html

Image

The guy in the cowboy hat, Carlos Arredondo, looks awesome. The guy in the wheelchair, Jeff Bauman, is one of the runners in the marathon.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/what- ... 6622144446

show: Uncensored version of Bauman
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:01 am

john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.

our society isn't becoming "more moral"... we are just getting better at enforcing our collective self-interests. nothing has fundamentally changed about our motivations.

on the contrary, there's also the idea that our increasing access to other people's perspectives had caused us to more often view others as extensions of ourselves, leading to higher empathy... not sure how much merit that idea has, though.


I think you discount the contrary point more than you should.

If you consider the behavior today that most would not only condemn but physically wince at now...much of it, was socially acceptable not so many years ago.

Motivations do change, as people become more educated, and while we hardly liven in a utopia, in many ways, the world is better for many because of much progress. Unfortunately, progress takes change and education, and many resist both, sometimes out of fear, but often simply out of habit, and perhaps most often, because they are corrupt.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby john9blue on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:11 pm

AAFitz wrote:
john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.

our society isn't becoming "more moral"... we are just getting better at enforcing our collective self-interests. nothing has fundamentally changed about our motivations.

on the contrary, there's also the idea that our increasing access to other people's perspectives had caused us to more often view others as extensions of ourselves, leading to higher empathy... not sure how much merit that idea has, though.


I think you discount the contrary point more than you should.

If you consider the behavior today that most would not only condemn but physically wince at now...much of it, was socially acceptable not so many years ago.

Motivations do change, as people become more educated, and while we hardly liven in a utopia, in many ways, the world is better for many because of much progress. Unfortunately, progress takes change and education, and many resist both, sometimes out of fear, but often simply out of habit, and perhaps most often, because they are corrupt.


the difference is that you believe the change is happening on an individual level, and i believe it's happening on a societal level.

do you really think people are more educated now than they were half a century ago?
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:47 pm

john9blue wrote:do you really think people are more educated now than they were half a century ago?

At this point in time, absolutely! And there is a LOT more to be known today. My grandmother can remember a brother of hers handing her a rifle to take with her on a trip out west to "defend herself against Indians". She rejected it, that brother was a tad "slow", but that kind of thinking was not all that uncommon. Think of the internment of the Japanese, etc. Today, we have polarization, but such extreme ignorance is not real common.

The real question is whether that level will continue. When I talk to many conservative Christians, for example, their very facts and understanding differs from what is known and proven. When I talk to avid Tea Partiers, they, too have a very different understanding of the facts, as do some extreme left-wingers and even a few more extreme "civil rights advocates" (put in quotes because they are really substituting oppression of whites for oppression of folks of (an)other color(s) ). These people often have great access to the internet, and I cannot help but think that is part of the problem. The internet in no way makes it easy to distinguish between true, proven facts and things people just wish were true or believe.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:49 pm

john9blue wrote:do you really think people are more educated now than they were half a century ago?


Without question, yes.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:52 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:When I talk to many conservative Christians, for example, their very facts and understanding differs from what is known and proven. When I talk to avid Tea Partiers, they, too have a very different understanding of the facts, as do some extreme left-wingers and even a few more extreme "civil rights advocates" (put in quotes because they are really substituting oppression of whites for oppression of folks of (an)other color(s) ). These people often have great access to the internet, and I cannot help but think that is part of the problem. The internet in no way makes it easy to distinguish between true, proven facts and things people just wish were true or believe.


I find it telling that you only note "extreme" left-wingers and civil rights advocates while referring to "conservative" Christians and "avid" Tea Partiers. The reality is that this is a problem among all people to a degree, but typically it will be the extreme of ANY group (liberal, conservative or otherwise) that falls most prey to it.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:12 pm

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:When I talk to many conservative Christians, for example, their very facts and understanding differs from what is known and proven. When I talk to avid Tea Partiers, they, too have a very different understanding of the facts, as do some extreme left-wingers and even a few more extreme "civil rights advocates" (put in quotes because they are really substituting oppression of whites for oppression of folks of (an)other color(s) ). These people often have great access to the internet, and I cannot help but think that is part of the problem. The internet in no way makes it easy to distinguish between true, proven facts and things people just wish were true or believe.


I find it telling that you only note "extreme" left-wingers and civil rights advocates while referring to "conservative" Christians and "avid" Tea Partiers. The reality is that this is a problem among all people to a degree, but typically it will be the extreme of ANY group (liberal, conservative or otherwise) that falls most prey to it.

LOL.. in this case, you are putting too much emphasis on a quick word choice. I was very much just trying to pick as wide a range of extremists as I could. (ergo the "for example") People tend to quickly understand the reference to conservative Christians and avid Tea Partiers that don't always check facts, but "liberal" is far more vague. Per the civil rights bit.. I was trying to think of a way to specify the very fringe because I am a pretty heavy civil rights proponent, but without naming a specific ethnic group. If there is an issue, it would be that whites who are very, very extreme are quickly labeled "KKK'ers" (or perhaps "Nazis"s) and, its generally understood what that denotes, but even similarly radical groups "of color" don't get such labels. (the modern Black Panther might be close, but I remember the old black panthers).
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:19 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:When I talk to many conservative Christians, for example, their very facts and understanding differs from what is known and proven. When I talk to avid Tea Partiers, they, too have a very different understanding of the facts, as do some extreme left-wingers and even a few more extreme "civil rights advocates" (put in quotes because they are really substituting oppression of whites for oppression of folks of (an)other color(s) ). These people often have great access to the internet, and I cannot help but think that is part of the problem. The internet in no way makes it easy to distinguish between true, proven facts and things people just wish were true or believe.


I find it telling that you only note "extreme" left-wingers and civil rights advocates while referring to "conservative" Christians and "avid" Tea Partiers. The reality is that this is a problem among all people to a degree, but typically it will be the extreme of ANY group (liberal, conservative or otherwise) that falls most prey to it.


LOL.. in this case, you are putting too much emphasis on a quick word choice. I was very much just trying to pick as wide a range of extremists as I could.


No, I don't believe I am. You specifically used the term "extreme" for liberal groups who may not check facts, but used terms that could very easily be thought of as "not extremist" when referring to more conservative groups.

PLAYER57832 wrote:People tend to quickly understand the reference to conservative Christians and avid Tea Partiers that don't always check facts, but "liberal" is far more vague. Per the civil rights bit.. I was trying to think of a way to specify the very fringe because I am a pretty heavy civil rights proponent, but without naming a specific ethnic group.


I definitely do NOT agree that any average "conservative Christian" is akin to an "extreme individual", though absolutely many are. I definitely do NOT agree that any average "avid Tea Partier" is akin to an "extreme individual", though absolutely many are.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: What's wrong with the world?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:52 pm

john9blue wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.

our society isn't becoming "more moral"... we are just getting better at enforcing our collective self-interests. nothing has fundamentally changed about our motivations.

on the contrary, there's also the idea that our increasing access to other people's perspectives had caused us to more often view others as extensions of ourselves, leading to higher empathy... not sure how much merit that idea has, though.


I think you discount the contrary point more than you should.

If you consider the behavior today that most would not only condemn but physically wince at now...much of it, was socially acceptable not so many years ago.

Motivations do change, as people become more educated, and while we hardly liven in a utopia, in many ways, the world is better for many because of much progress. Unfortunately, progress takes change and education, and many resist both, sometimes out of fear, but often simply out of habit, and perhaps most often, because they are corrupt.


the difference is that you believe the change is happening on an individual level, and i believe it's happening on a societal level.

do you really think people are more educated now than they were half a century ago?


Depends on what you mean by "educated" and on the expanding variety of topics demanding more specialized education.
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