Marriage

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Discussions Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:05 am

thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Can we go back to what the problem is with the following potential law change:

"Gay couples will be recognized as married with respect to federal and state law."

I'm not sure I (still) understand what the problem is.


which means....if passed......that "gender does not matter"......correct?


Correct.

Any thoughts?

TGD, if gender doesn't matter anymore in civilized society, all the men are going to go into women's restrooms. This emphasis on gender is the only thing stopping us.


--Andy


My freshman year of college we had co-ed restrooms and nothing bad happened. I know it's only anecdotal evidence... but still.


Well, that's what they want you to think. Any rapist reserves the right to enter any bathroom he or she pleases, and if the traditional bathroom is thrown out, then uh uh uh uh you're wrong.


I dedicate the above argument to Phatscotty.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:38 pm

Phatscotty wrote:So because a handful of countries interpret rights extremely Liberally over the last 10 years.....that means it's a right all around the world and for everyone in the world?


Isn't Denmark the same country you tried to use a court case from just a couple of days ago?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:39 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Also, since 2000 is the first time anyone did this, is it fair to say gay marriage was "invented/created" 12 years ago?


No, it is not. I thought you knew history? Do you only know American history?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:41 pm

Phatscotty wrote:it's the right of the people to say what marriage is or isn't.


To use your own argument...where is that detailed in the Constitution?

Phatscotty wrote:I don't have to "argue" for traditional marriage, or give a reason why it's important (although I have given many). Traditional marriage is what we already have, and it's all we've ever had. I'm not trying to change anything.


This is a lie.

Phatscotty wrote:If given the chance, I won't vote in any way to give the government more power, and I will not vote for any particular amendment that increases government spending, and I try to hold that for all issues regardless.


Unless it's to drug test welfare recipients, of course.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby crispybits on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:45 pm

I'm starting to think I may have been a little unfair and PS was actually trying to argue his position, it's just the few sentences and logical fallcies and irrelevant tangents he keeps going back to ARE the extent of his argument. He just doesn't seem to have anything else to back it up with, so it's less a case of unwillingness to provide rational explanations and logical defences, and more a case of inability to do so.
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (7)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:51 pm

crispybits wrote:I'm starting to think I may have been a little unfair and PS was actually trying to argue his position, it's just the few sentences and logical fallcies and irrelevant tangents he keeps going back to ARE the extent of his argument. He just doesn't seem to have anything else to back it up with, so it's less a case of unwillingness to provide rational explanations and logical defences, and more a case of inability to do so.


There are rational reasons* to defend the historic view of marriage, they just don't coincide with Phatscotty's view of smaller government so it's harder for him to argue.

* I note the term "rational reasons" are religious in nature and thus may not be rational to most people.
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby crispybits on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:54 pm

If the defence for the historic view of marriage is purely religious (and I think some would disagree with you), then the fact that there are recognised religions that are happy to conduct gay marriage ceremonies would mean that in the USA at least, the government should be powerless to prevent that. Separation of church and state and all that.
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (7)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:03 pm

crispybits wrote:If the defence for the historic view of marriage is purely religious (and I think some would disagree with you), then the fact that there are recognised religions that are happy to conduct gay marriage ceremonies would mean that in the USA at least, the government should be powerless to prevent that. Separation of church and state and all that.


I don't disagree with that and it's an interesting take.

If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby crispybits on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:19 pm

Given that (again talking in the USA here) a church can refuse to marry someone for a whole variety of reasons (spouse of different religion/denomination, previous divorces, etc) I think that churches in the US are safe from being forced (again, separation of church and state, works both ways)
User avatar
Major crispybits
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (7)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:24 pm

thegreekdog wrote:If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


I've been curious of comments like this, since I've heard it multiple times for years out here in California. Is forcing religions to perform same sex marriages actually on the table, or is it one of the talking points of those against in order to drum up support for an issue that isn't there in the first place?

I ask because it doesn't make sense to me why changing the definition of marriage would actually cause this to happen. I am not a religious person and, to my knowledge, a mosque, synagogue, etc would not be required to have performed my wedding ceremony if I had asked. I can't imagine what would happen if I walked up to a Scientology or Mormon institution and told them they were required to marry me simply because I am heterosexual.

edit: Looks like I was fastposted by Crispy as I was writing my response.
User avatar
Major Bones2484
 
Posts: 2308
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:24 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA (G1)
Medals: 65
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (23) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (9) General Contribution (1)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:29 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


I've been curious of comments like this, since I've heard it multiple times for years out here in California. Is forcing religions to perform same sex marriages actually on the table, or is it one of the talking points of those against in order to drum up support for an issue that isn't there in the first place?

I ask because it doesn't make sense to me why changing the definition of marriage would actually cause this to happen. I am not a religious person and, to my knowledge, a mosque, synagogue, etc would not be required to have performed my wedding ceremony if I had asked. I can't imagine what would happen if I walked up to a Scientology or Mormon institution and told them they were required to marry me simply because I am heterosexual.

edit: Looks like I was fastposted by Crispy as I was writing my response.


Time will tell.....

My prediction: wherever same sex marriage is recognized, free religion and free speech will be restricted.. You can see how this is already happening in places that recognize same sex marriage.

Obama is smart like the devil, and fundamental transformation is in process. Same sex marriage, whatever your position on it, is being used, and once they get it, it will be abused.
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 86
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (11) General Contribution (2)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:05 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Time will tell.....

My prediction: wherever same sex marriage is recognized, free religion and free speech will be restricted. You can see how this is already happening in places that recognize same sex marriage.

Agreed. I see it playing out like this.

Those homosexuals get marriage equality recognition. Cut to a gay pride parade goosestepping through the streets of any given metropolis, while Christian crosses line the pavement, so they are effectively stomping all over religion. Cut to scenes of horror (also known as Home Alone scenes) with people bringing their hands up to either side of their face. Cut to a completely different gay pride parade goosestepping through streets of another metropolis, this time stomping all over newspapers and manifestos that line the pavement. Cut to more scenes of horror/home alone. Cut to a ticking clock which ticks, ticks, ticks, and then abruptly stops. Cut to a view of Earth from space, and a massive nuclear explosion. Cut to aliens solemnly shaking their head, speaking alienese that in subtitles read: "If only. If only..."


--Andy
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class AndyDufresne
Retired Administrator
 
Posts: 25037
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo
Medals: 20
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) General Achievement (4) General Contribution (2)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:22 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
crispybits wrote:If the defence for the historic view of marriage is purely religious (and I think some would disagree with you), then the fact that there are recognised religions that are happy to conduct gay marriage ceremonies would mean that in the USA at least, the government should be powerless to prevent that. Separation of church and state and all that.


I don't disagree with that and it's an interesting take.

If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


Me too.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:24 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


I've been curious of comments like this, since I've heard it multiple times for years out here in California. Is forcing religions to perform same sex marriages actually on the table, or is it one of the talking points of those against in order to drum up support for an issue that isn't there in the first place?


It isn't really on the table, no. It's "one of those fears".

Bones2484 wrote:I ask because it doesn't make sense to me why changing the definition of marriage would actually cause this to happen. I am not a religious person and, to my knowledge, a mosque, synagogue, etc would not be required to have performed my wedding ceremony if I had asked. I can't imagine what would happen if I walked up to a Scientology or Mormon institution and told them they were required to marry me simply because I am heterosexual.


Correct. The pastor who married my wife and I required that we attend a certain number of family counseling sessions before he would agree to marry us. If we weren't willing to do that, he'd have walked away.

(FWIW, that was a wonderful thing he did for us, really.)
Last edited by Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:26 pm

Phatscotty wrote:My prediction: wherever same sex marriage is recognized, free religion and free speech will be restricted.


What basis is there for that prediction?

Phatscotty wrote:You can see how this is already happening in places that recognize same sex marriage.


You mean in places that don't recognize separation of church and state, or possibly places that don't recognize free religion/free speech? Or in some other places?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

PreviousNext

Return to Whose Forum is It Anyway?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MudPuppy and 2 guests

Login