If Marriage Is a Fundamental Right, Then?

[Lootifer]

Ok I can recognise (as TGD does) that it is sad that the catholic church is leaving the adoption game; but hopefully some other organization steps in to fill that particular gap. It IS a concern. However I am not sure it means anything in the marriage debate as I dont believe there is any state funding available for people/institutions who carry out marriage ceremonies correct? This funding thing is what, i assume, the decision to leave (or get pushed out however you look at it) was based on?

Any prom dance in any school in any state that recognizes same sex marriage, can no longer require that boys wear a tuxedo, and girls wear a dress. In one of the states, the ACLU got involved because a same sex couple (not married obviously) went to prom, and one of the girls was "discriminated" against because she couldn't wear a tuxedo. When the ACLU sued claiming that formal dances are "discriminatory", the school caved rather than spend millions of dollars meant for educating children on a lawsuit defending something as traditional as the prom dance.

Wait... a school has a rule that boys must wear tuxedos/suits and girls must wear dresses to the school ball/prom? Is this a publicly funded school?

Holy hell you guys do some weird shit (no offense intended).

[thegreekdog]

If an institution wants to cater to only married gays, or gays and straights, or just straights, what would be wrong with that?

What kind of institution?

And answer my questions or face my wrath.

an orphanage, foster home, etc.....

I'll go back and look

Private organizations should be permitted to cater to whomever they want.
Public organizations are required to cater to whomever the government wants them to cater to.
Once adoption agencies and orphanages were licensed by the government, they became public organizations.

YOU'VE BEEN TAX LAWYERED MOTHER FUCKER! NEXT?

[thegreekdog]

.....(this question right?)

No. You asked me a bunch of questions. I answered them and asked you some questions.

If you aren't going to read my post, there's no point. I'll add you to my list:

(1) Player57832 - Argues different topics than the topic being discussed; provides no evidence
(2) Symmetry - Obfuscates
(3) Phatscotty - Likes to watch himself type

[Phatscotty]

By the way Scotty, me boy... I'm not sure you fully understand the difference between a religious institution and a religious institution that serves in the capacity of a charitable organization. What the Catholic charities did in DC and Boston were by choice because they chose not to comply with the law. In case you missed it from my last half dozen posts, this has nothing to do with religious freedom and thus is not only not unconstitutional, but does not impact anyone's ability to practice their religion.

Time will tell. Don't worry, I will be here documenting everything. I'm sure you will be here too saying none of it is a big deal.

In the mean time, thousands of children have been relocated to overcrowded orphanages and foster homes which tend to be far worse than the organized religions charity.

You say it was the churches choice? What was that choice again? "either give up the Bible, or gtfo?"

Yes, you would think the city would want to accomodate the Catholic charities, but they didn't. Is that because gay marriage is recognized or because the law is stupid?

I don't think any state that redefines marriage will accomodate the Catholic charities. So, I guess they will just have to end wherever marriage is redefined.

[Phatscotty]

.....(this question right?)

No. You asked me a bunch of questions. I answered them and asked you some questions.

If you aren't going to read my post, there's no point. I'll add you to my list:

(1) Player57832 - Argues different topics than the topic being discussed; provides no evidence
(2) Symmetry - Obfuscates
(3) Phatscotty - Likes to watch himself type

can i have more than 30 fucking seconds? LOL! All you do is talk crap about me anyways

[Lootifer]

If an institution wants to cater to only married gays, or gays and straights, or just straights, what would be wrong with that?

What kind of institution?

And answer my questions or face my wrath.

an orphanage, foster home, etc.....(this question right?)

Personally I think it is absurd that any private entity handles something so sensitive and life-changing such as adoption. But thats just crazy ole me.

Oh to be fair; I have a lot more trust in my government than I would if I lived in the US (hence why I might seem crazy to you guys). Your distrust of your own government is fairly rational and something I dont really have an answer to.

[thegreekdog]

.....(this question right?)

No. You asked me a bunch of questions. I answered them and asked you some questions.

If you aren't going to read my post, there's no point. I'll add you to my list:

(1) Player57832 - Argues different topics than the topic being discussed; provides no evidence
(2) Symmetry - Obfuscates
(3) Phatscotty - Likes to watch himself type

can i have more than 30 fucking seconds? LOL! All you do is talk crap about me anyways, so it would probably be okay if you put me on your list for not answer a question fast enough. That's not really the convo I try to have

You typed at least three posts since I asked your questions one of which was a post, that you later edited, asking "What questions?"

And you don't have a conversation dude. You talk right past people. You're like a guy that just makes speeches and says "no time for questions."

Finally, don't try to make this a "woe is Phatscotty" thing. I don't play that. I treat you just like I treat everyone else.

[thegreekdog]

If an institution wants to cater to only married gays, or gays and straights, or just straights, what would be wrong with that?

What kind of institution?

And answer my questions or face my wrath.

an orphanage, foster home, etc.....(this question right?)

Personally I think it is absurd that any private entity handles something so sensitive and life-changing such as adoption. But thats just crazy ole me.

The Catholic Church is a large supporter of orphanages and adoptions, probably mostly because of it's stance on abortion. A friend of mine is an adopted child whose birth mother had as a condition of adoption that she be raised Catholic.

[Phatscotty]

If an institution wants to cater to only married gays, or gays and straights, or just straights, what would be wrong with that?

What kind of institution?

And answer my questions or face my wrath.

an orphanage, foster home, etc.....(this question right?)

Personally I think it is absurd that any private entity handles something so sensitive and life-changing such as adoption. But thats just crazy ole me.

Well, that's the difference between my country and yours I guess. One of the orphanages that closed in Boston was the largest in the state, and has helped over 60,000 children in the worst circumstances for almost the last 200 years.

It's things like this that make all the difference in understanding American's argument that government doesn't have to do everything and private charities are and have been perfectly capable and dependable over the centuries, not to mention much more effective than government, often at a fraction of the cost.

[Lootifer]

Do you get govt funding if you are a licensed adoption agency?

Do you get govt funding if you are a licensed marriage celebrant?

[b.k. barunt]

Yeah, you Christians* are sure persecuted alright...it's amazing that any of you are left alive, you're persecuted so harshly.

Funny enough, "being persecuted" isn't really the same as "no longer being allowed to persecute others as much as we used to be able to".

*Because when Phatscotty says "religion" we all know he only really means "Christianity".

Wow. Just wow. I realize that you Mormons were persecuted and had to flee to Utah, but that could have been precipitated by aggressive behavior like burning down newspaper offices and such, and lets not forget about the Mountain Valley massacre . . . oops, sorry - that wasn't Mormons being persecuted, that was Mormons butchering a wagon train full of settlers who were maybe gonna settle down too close to Mormons.

Also you might be interested to know that when scotty says "religion" he's referring primarily to Islam and Christianity as both the Bible and the Koran take a dim view (understatement, that) of Homosexuality. If the Mormons actually followed the Bible as they claim then we could include them too but . . .


Honibaz

[crispybits]

The Catholic Church is a large supporter of orphanages and adoptions, probably mostly because of it's stance on abortion. A friend of mine is an adopted child whose birth mother had as a condition of adoption that she be raised Catholic.

Just take a step back for a second and think about this. Wow.

A hugely rich organisaton funds orphanages across the world, and only gives out kids to couples when it has guarantees that those kids be indoctrinated from birth into that organisation's propaganda, an indoctrination that often lasts an entire lifetime.

Imagine for a moment we weren't talking about the church, but McDonalds or Coca Cola or someone doing this. The iChild, you can now get a kid but you have to sign a contract saying that any piece of tech you buy him/her has to be from Apple wherever Apple makes a version of that gadget. We want him hooked for life on our brand!

(Yes, a little sensationalist I admit, but I hope you can see the point here - and it's something that if your assertion is at least widespread practice, makes me not sad at all that the catholic church is being told to gtfo)

[2dimes]

I will again preface my comments with my position on non traditional marriage.

• I am so bad at being married, like most other practicing heterosexuals. I have ruined marriage already. It can't get worse.
• My dog and I don't care who marry's who.
• Same gender marriage can't harm me because it's between the people getting married.
• A gay person of either gender can even marry me as long as I don't have to participate.

Islam and Christianity as both the Bible and the Koran take a dim view (understatement, that) of Homosexuality.

The main difference is the vast majority of Jews, who have inherited and taken over the religion of the Torah are currently and for over 1000 years now, practicing acceptance toward homosexuality.

On the other hand ask even the most moderate follower of that other book their view on same sex marriage and the best response will be fear. A likely response anger and in many cases the response will allow you imminent first hand knowledge of what happens to dead people.

If the Mormons actually followed the Bible as they claim then we could include them too but . . .


Honibaz

Well the bible is pretty good as a loose basis for a religion if you are not as bright or born too early to pull a full L. Ron Hubbard.

When you send kids out with your founders "Upgraded holy book." They can discuss the part where you've quoted the gospel and ask, "How does that sound to you?" Since it is a part of the bible that is universally pleasant, and nearly a direct quote it sounds pretty good.

They will probably never figure out what's really going on even after they have bound themselves to your group with oaths.

Unfortunately young people are not being raised to respect anything now and sneak cameras into your secret "sacred temples" posting the video on YouTube.

Fortunately your masonic based rituals are complicated and symbolic so you can suggest false meanings as their purpose.

I'm not sure why false Honibaz doesn't want to include them with some of the other pseudo Christian groups like Popeism.

[b.k. barunt]

I would most certainly include Mormons with Catholics. Both claim to follow the Bible and both ignore a good part of it. The Mormons wrote their own to trump it and the Catholics made it an offence punishable by death (with eternal damnation thrown in) to even own one that was written in the common tongue as soon as such became available.


Honibaz

[2dimes]

Well that's just a solid plan right there, if you're going to lie about what the bible says you don't want people reading it. They might think for themselves.

In fact I would say especially back when people had the attention span/lack of access to the pr0nternet to actually bother to read it.

Killing people to dissuade them from spreading the truth about Christ was even better than trying to convince them the bible was just a book written for specifically controlling them.

Of course a thousand years of doing it helped that theory gain some traction.

[Woodruff]

So, basically...it makes the religious institutions who were simply marrying people before, "discriminatory" now, right?

Yup, but nothing needs to, or should be, done about their discrimination.

But, they will use this as a template to destroy anything that discriminates. Just ask Mets about the 14th amendment and it's function in a post same-sex marriage endorsed country...

Sure, nothing needs to or should be done, but it will be done, because that is the true agenda once you get passed the emotional manipulation and brainwashing.

ever heard of problem/reaction/solution? Cuz this is a crash course

Right, because the proverbial "they" is made up completely of an army of ruthlessly butch militant lesbians hell bent on destroying religion and corrupting the world right?

Protip: It's not; for example I make up part of that "they"; and I oppose quite strongly forcing the church to marry homosexuals... so does BBS and many others. Stop scaremongering.

like I said and have shown, Catholic charities and orphanages are getting kicked out of states that redefined marriage.

Good. The bigots should not be in the business.

You call that scaremongering for me suggesting that would happen. Well, now it has happened and continues to happen, so where does that leave your opinion that it was just scaremongering?????

The argument behind your statements here has been refuted a number of times. How is it that you've managed to avoid seeing those refutations?

Hint: It has to do with licensing.

[Woodruff]

TGD has already pointed out that these examples do NOT constitute an attack on religious freedom , if you think he is wrong then you should explain why rather than ignore what he said.

I don't think he's wrong, I think he's happy that Catholic orphanages and foster homes are closing everywhere marriage is redefined. He supports it and seems quite willing to keep pushing forward with policies that directly impact religious charities, quite negatively at that.

You don't think he's wrong...but you disagree with him. Isn't that sort of like saying that you are intentionally being wrong?

And why would you think that thegreekdog wants to negatively impact religious charities? I certainly haven't seen that from him.

[Woodruff]

and guess what else is a thing of the past in states that recognize same sex marriage, can no longer be blatantly ignored by "that's just slippery slope!"

Any prom dance in any school in any state that recognizes same sex marriage, can no longer require that boys wear a tuxedo, and girls wear a dress.

Phatscotty...WHY DOES THIS MATTER? Seriously. Who is being harmed if a girl decides to wear a tuxedo? They're wearing clothes, after all.

That kind of shit is just stupid.

[Woodruff]

Actually I think it's sad. I think it's sad that the government determined that it would enforce its anti-discrimination laws with respect to adoption on the Catholic Church charitable organizations in those particular jurisdictions. Like the president in his recent healthcare reform plan, I would have expected that these cities would permit the Catholic Church to only permit straight couples to adopt. Apparently not.

While I disagree with you that this is necessarily sad (I am of the opinion that the Catholic charities brought this on themselves), I do agree with you that I am surprised that there wasn't an excemption for religious reasons as was made with Obamacare. It seems like a logical similarity.

[Woodruff]

If an institution wants to cater to only married gays, or gays and straights, or just straights, what would be wrong with that?

If an institution wants to cater to only white people, or people of any color, or just blacks, what would be wrong with that?

[Woodruff]

Yeah, you Christians* are sure persecuted alright...it's amazing that any of you are left alive, you're persecuted so harshly.

Funny enough, "being persecuted" isn't really the same as "no longer being allowed to persecute others as much as we used to be able to".

*Because when Phatscotty says "religion" we all know he only really means "Christianity".

Wow. Just wow. I realize that you Mormons

You Mormons? I'm an agnostic atheist. I was raised as a Baptist. I have never been a Mormon.

were persecuted and had to flee to Utah

As I understand it, Mormons are quite welcome in Utah. Overwhelmingly so, even.

but that could have been precipitated by aggressive behavior like burning down newspaper offices and such, and lets not forget about the Mountain Valley massacre . . . oops, sorry - that wasn't Mormons being persecuted, that was Mormons butchering a wagon train full of settlers who were maybe gonna settle down too close to Mormons.

Did you want to speak about anything relevant?

Also you might be interested to know that when scotty says "religion" he's referring primarily to Islam and Christianity as both the Bible and the Koran take a dim view (understatement, that) of Homosexuality. If the Mormons actually followed the Bible as they claim then we could include them too but . . .

Scotty doesn't give a rat's ass about Islam, B.K.

[2dimes]

like I said and have shown, Catholic charities and orphanages are getting kicked out of states that redefined marriage.

Good. The bigots should not be in the business.

I can't really argue that except... Who will find decent homes (though maybe selected by turning down some decent couples that don't meet the criteria laid out by the "bigots") for all those little bastards, born to Catholic teenagers that believe they are not allowed to use birth control, then can't keep or kill the resulting baby?

Yeah, you Christians* are sure persecuted alright...it's amazing that any of you are left alive, you're persecuted so harshly.

Funny enough, "being persecuted" isn't really the same as "no longer being allowed to persecute others as much as we used to be able to".

*Because when Phatscotty says "religion" we all know he only really means "Christianity".

Wow. Just wow. I realize that you Mormons

You Mormons? I'm an agnostic atheist. I was raised as a Baptist. I have never been a Mormon.

were persecuted and had to flee to Utah

As I understand it, Mormons are quite welcome in Utah. Overwhelmingly so, even.

Well they pretty much settled and modernized the territory near Salt Lake after they had to flee there to avoid beeing percecuted by Christians and the members of their root religion. They abandoned nearly everything they had in Independence, Missouri, where they had intended to build Zion's center place. They then attempted it again in Nauvoo, Illinois a city established by Joseph Smith himself. Finally fleeing to Utah after a mob stormed the prison in Carthage, Illinois, and killed Joe for "marrying" and sexing up too many local young women.

Hence the slippery slope argument that once we're allowed to keep marriage between the boys. The pesky heterosexuals will want to take the logical step to marrying a new hotty once the last "sister wife" is unable to lose the weight gain from lots of breeding.

Soon guys that are better at marrying will have married too many hot young women, knocked them up, rinsed and repeated. Guys like me will lose it and get together have him arrested and then storm the jail and shoot him.

[Woodruff]

like I said and have shown, Catholic charities and orphanages are getting kicked out of states that redefined marriage.

Good. The bigots should not be in the business.

I can't really argue that except... Who will find decent homes (though maybe selected by turning down some decent couples that don't meet the criteria laid out by the "bigots") for all those little bastards, born to Catholic teenagers that believe they are not allowed to use birth control, then can't keep or kill the resulting baby?

Certainly, that is a problem (aside from your humorous but meaningful wording). I am of the belief that another organization will take their place...but I'll be the first to admit that is a "belief" and "hope", but of course does not yet have a "done" to it.

[2dimes]

Oh and in case you're wondering how you became a Morman, one that used to hang out here had a Spock avatar.

[BigBallinStalin]

Where did you show this? (genuine query, I didnt notice it).

Okay, you are a good guy Loot, even if you don't like me, I still like you and we can still have conversation. No problem diggin up those links.


Same-sex ‘marriage’ law forces D.C. Catholic Charities to close adoption program

Washington D.C., Feb 17, 2010 / 04:59 pm (CNA).- Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Washington announced today that it is shutting down its foster care and public adoption program. The District of Columbia said the charity would be ineligible for service because of the new law recognizing same-sex “marriage.”

“Although Catholic Charities has an 80-year legacy of high quality service to the vulnerable in our nation’s capital, the D.C. Government informed Catholic Charities that the agency would be ineligible to serve as a foster care provider due to the impending D.C. same-sex marriage law,” the organization said in a statement.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/ ... n_program/


Catholic Charities stuns state, ends adoptions

In a stunning turn of events, Archbishop Sean P. O'Malley and leaders of Catholic Charities of Boston announced yesterday that the agency will end its adoption work, deciding to abandon its founding mission, rather than comply with state law requiring that gays be allowed to adopt children.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articl ... adoptions/

Catholic orphanages and foster homes are by far the biggest helpers to children in the worst circumstances, in my country.

Example #1 of an unintended consequence of "it's all about who you love" concerning 1/10th of 1% of the population, now homeless children are out on the streets again. OH! THE COMPASSION!!!!

Adoption != marriage. Keep fishing, PS.