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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:33 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Nice brainwashing image dump. I do wonder if you have ever actually looked at this issue from a non biased p.o.v.? If you are still posting racist pictures from 50 years ago, that tells me you don't know too much except for how to repeat what gets repeated.

Race and gender are not even close to the same thing. Stop trying to manipulate


You lost this argument a long time ago, dude.


What argument are you talking about? The one that JB just changed the subject to?
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby ooge on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:37 pm

Speaking on behalf of trolls everywhere stop using Trolls in a derogatory way :lol:
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:55 pm

This video pretty much sums up what I feel about marriage and what the values of marriage are.

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:00 pm

I didn't change the subject, I just finally removed the veil. And I do understand your argument; You've argued yourself into a bad place.

My knowledge comes from history first, and that's why so many of my posts reference it. Sometimes I want to respond to a post with some forgotten story from history, but often I'll stop myself, because no one will know what I'm talking about. Knowing history is supposed to help us avoid repeating the same mistakes, and so here I am with a history lesson.

Your argument is recycled from history, and it's been repeated in each Civil Right's battle. From Women's Suffrage it was "yeah, but women are too weak and emotional to have the vote. Everyone knows that. It's just part of the definition of a woman." Your argument is identical with, "yeah but marriage is between a man and a woman. So gay people can't be married to each other. It's just part of the definition of marriage."

Bigotry thinly veiled by "good intentions" is still bigotry. Stuttering about how definitions never change, or it's just too hard to change them is the dying wail of the old generation. You act like the bedrock of your life is precedent (it's not) and Webster's dictionary (it's not). But you're losing out to the tide of human compassion. If you're disgusted with being compared to a White Supremest, or a Sexist, then you should re-evaluate your position. Because that's how we all view it. All of us.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Phatscotty wrote:This video pretty much sums up what I feel about marriage and what the values of marriage are.




WOW. This video has to be a troll. It's dripping with hypocrisy.

"It's not just a piece of paper."
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:12 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:This video pretty much sums up what I feel about marriage and what the values of marriage are.




WOW. This video has to be a troll. It's dripping with hypocrisy.

"It's not just a piece of paper."


what's your point
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:17 pm

Dr. Dickhead wrote:HaHa
BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST A PIECE OF PAPER. THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE, EVEN THOUGH IT MAY NOT BE IN ONE'S HEART, THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING MARRIED AND LIVING TOGETHER WITH SOMEBODY. LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING: THERE IS A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE WORD BOYFRIEND, AND THE WORD HUSBAND. BETWEEN THE WORD GIRLFRIEND AND THE WORD WIFE. EVEN BETWEEN THE WORD PARTNER AND HUSBAND OR WIFE.
IT'S NOT JUST A PIECE OF PAPER.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:19 pm

But when the Homos want to get gay married, then it's just a f*cking piece of paper and they can get a civil union instead, but only if the state decides they have that right.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:26 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:But when the Homos want to get gay married, then it's just a f*cking piece of paper and they can get a civil union instead, but only if the state decides they have that right.


Where has that right ever existed before? And what are you prepared to do if the state does not bow to your demands?
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:28 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Dr. Dickhead wrote:HaHa
BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST A PIECE OF PAPER. THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE, EVEN THOUGH IT MAY NOT BE IN ONE'S HEART, THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING MARRIED AND LIVING TOGETHER WITH SOMEBODY. LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING: THERE IS A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE WORD BOYFRIEND, AND THE WORD HUSBAND. BETWEEN THE WORD GIRLFRIEND AND THE WORD WIFE. EVEN BETWEEN THE WORD PARTNER AND HUSBAND OR WIFE.
IT'S NOT JUST A PIECE OF PAPER.


yeah?.....and? It's NOT just a piece of paper.

Wait, you seriously think marriage is just a piece of paper? Hold on a sec, I think I understand your argument a LOT better now...
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:32 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:But when the Homos want to get gay married, then it's just a f*cking piece of paper and they can get a civil union instead, but only if the state decides they have that right.


Where has that right ever existed before?


In 2001, the Netherlands became the first nation in the world to grant same-sex marriages.[81] Same-sex marriages are also granted and mutually recognized by Belgium (2003),[82] Spain (2005), Canada (2005), South Africa (2006), Norway (2009), Sweden (2009), Portugal (2010),[83] Iceland (2010), Argentina (2010) and Denmark (2012). In Mexico, same-sex marriage is recognized in all 31 states but only performed in Mexico City and in Quintana Roo State. In Nepal, their recognition has been judicially mandated but not yet legislated.[84] In the United States, nine states and the District of Columbia permit same sex marriage, beginning with Massachusetts in 2004 and Connecticut in 2008.[85] As of 2010, some 250 million people (4% of the world population) lived in areas that recognize and perform same-sex marriages.[86]
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:40 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:But when the Homos want to get gay married, then it's just a f*cking piece of paper and they can get a civil union instead, but only if the state decides they have that right.


Where has that right ever existed before?


In 2001, the Netherlands became the first nation in the world to grant same-sex marriages.[81] Same-sex marriages are also granted and mutually recognized by Belgium (2003),[82] Spain (2005), Canada (2005), South Africa (2006), Norway (2009), Sweden (2009), Portugal (2010),[83] Iceland (2010), Argentina (2010) and Denmark (2012). In Mexico, same-sex marriage is recognized in all 31 states but only performed in Mexico City and in Quintana Roo State. In Nepal, their recognition has been judicially mandated but not yet legislated.[84] In the United States, nine states and the District of Columbia permit same sex marriage, beginning with Massachusetts in 2004 and Connecticut in 2008.[85] As of 2010, some 250 million people (4% of the world population) lived in areas that recognize and perform same-sex marriages.[86]


So because a handful of countries interpret rights extremely Liberally over the last 10 years.....that means it's a right all around the world and for everyone in the world?

I think JB is jumping the gun.
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:47 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:But when the Homos want to get gay married, then it's just a f*cking piece of paper and they can get a civil union instead, but only if the state decides they have that right.


Where has that right ever existed before?


In 2001, the Netherlands became the first nation in the world to grant same-sex marriages.[81] Same-sex marriages are also granted and mutually recognized by Belgium (2003),[82] Spain (2005), Canada (2005), South Africa (2006), Norway (2009), Sweden (2009), Portugal (2010),[83] Iceland (2010), Argentina (2010) and Denmark (2012). In Mexico, same-sex marriage is recognized in all 31 states but only performed in Mexico City and in Quintana Roo State. In Nepal, their recognition has been judicially mandated but not yet legislated.[84] In the United States, nine states and the District of Columbia permit same sex marriage, beginning with Massachusetts in 2004 and Connecticut in 2008.[85] As of 2010, some 250 million people (4% of the world population) lived in areas that recognize and perform same-sex marriages.[86]


So because a handful of countries interpret rights extremely Liberally over the last 10 years.....that means it's a right all around the world and for everyone in the world?

I think JB is jumping the gun


Now you're changing the question. Don't get desperate, Scotty.
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Re:

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:52 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:But when the Homos want to get gay married, then it's just a f*cking piece of paper and they can get a civil union instead, but only if the state decides they have that right.


Where has that right ever existed before?


In 2001, the Netherlands became the first nation in the world to grant same-sex marriages.[81] Same-sex marriages are also granted and mutually recognized by Belgium (2003),[82] Spain (2005), Canada (2005), South Africa (2006), Norway (2009), Sweden (2009), Portugal (2010),[83] Iceland (2010), Argentina (2010) and Denmark (2012). In Mexico, same-sex marriage is recognized in all 31 states but only performed in Mexico City and in Quintana Roo State. In Nepal, their recognition has been judicially mandated but not yet legislated.[84] In the United States, nine states and the District of Columbia permit same sex marriage, beginning with Massachusetts in 2004 and Connecticut in 2008.[85] As of 2010, some 250 million people (4% of the world population) lived in areas that recognize and perform same-sex marriages.[86]


So because a handful of countries interpret rights extremely Liberally over the last 10 years.....that means it's a right all around the world and for everyone in the world?

I think JB is jumping the gun


Now you're changing the question. Don't get desperate, Scotty.


What is the point of your post (without sounding too desperate? :-s ) And I asked the question to JB, not to you, so why would I be desperate for an answer from you? But look at the reality, you jumped in to save JB, kinda desperate looking there... :D
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Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:55 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:But when the Homos want to get gay married, then it's just a f*cking piece of paper and they can get a civil union instead, but only if the state decides they have that right.


Where has that right ever existed before?


In 2001, the Netherlands became the first nation in the world to grant same-sex marriages.[81] Same-sex marriages are also granted and mutually recognized by Belgium (2003),[82] Spain (2005), Canada (2005), South Africa (2006), Norway (2009), Sweden (2009), Portugal (2010),[83] Iceland (2010), Argentina (2010) and Denmark (2012). In Mexico, same-sex marriage is recognized in all 31 states but only performed in Mexico City and in Quintana Roo State. In Nepal, their recognition has been judicially mandated but not yet legislated.[84] In the United States, nine states and the District of Columbia permit same sex marriage, beginning with Massachusetts in 2004 and Connecticut in 2008.[85] As of 2010, some 250 million people (4% of the world population) lived in areas that recognize and perform same-sex marriages.[86]


So because a handful of countries interpret rights extremely Liberally over the last 10 years.....that means it's a right all around the world and for everyone in the world?

I think JB is jumping the gun


Now you're changing the question. Don't get desperate, Scotty.


What is the point of your post (without sounding to desperate?)


It's a list of some of the places where the right existed before. Exactly what you asked for.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:00 am

okay, so a list of a couple countries (not the ones JB or I live in.....) which didn't even start before the year 2000?

Not a very strong case that same sex marriage IS a right. The correct way to say it, certainly for JB, is "same sex marriage is a right in a few countries, but not mine, and has been for like 4,000 days."

Also, since 2000 is the first time anyone did this, is it fair to say gay marriage was "invented/created" 12 years ago?
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:03 am

Phatscotty wrote:okay, so a list of a couple countries (not the ones JB or I live in.....) which didn't even start before the year 2000?


It's what you asked for as proof. No doubt you'll demand something else now.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:09 am

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:okay, so a list of a couple countries (not the ones JB or I live in.....) which didn't even start before the year 2000? Not a very strong case that same sex marriage IS a right.

The correct way to say it, certainly for JB, is "same sex marriage is a right in a few countries, but not mine, and has been for like 4,000 days."

Also, since 2000 is the first time anyone did this, is it fair to say gay marriage was "invented/created" 12 years ago?


It's what you asked for as proof. No doubt you'll demand something else now.


Symmetry, cmon now. You really think I am not aware that marriage was redefined in Denmark...or Massachussetts, or Mexico and France? What the hell are you smokin man?

You know 100% I did not ask for proof, or need proof. I asked for context, precedent, and perspective.

And you called me desperate.... Look at you! Falling all over yourself to answer a question that was not even asked to you, to provide "proof" of something I have acknowledged myself right here in this very thread repeatedly.

Desperate.... :lol:
Last edited by Phatscotty on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:11 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:okay, so a list of a couple countries (not the ones JB or I live in.....) which didn't even start before the year 2000?


It's what you asked for as proof. No doubt you'll demand something else now.


Symmetry, cmon now. You really think I am not aware that marriage was redefined in Denmark...or Massachussetts, or Mexico and France? What the hell are you smokin man?

You know 100% I did not ask for proof, or need proof. I asked for context, and perspective.

And you called me desperate.... Look at you! Falling all over yourself to answer a question that was not even asked to you, to provide "proof" of something I have acknowledged myself right here in this very thread.

Desperate.... :lol:


Aye, I think I called your situation correctly.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:17 am

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:okay, so a list of a couple countries (not the ones JB or I live in.....) which didn't even start before the year 2000?


It's what you asked for as proof. No doubt you'll demand something else now.


Symmetry, cmon now. You really think I am not aware that marriage was redefined in Denmark...or Massachussetts, or Mexico and France? What the hell are you smokin man?

You know 100% I did not ask for proof, or need proof. I asked for context, and perspective.

And you called me desperate.... Look at you! Falling all over yourself to answer a question that was not even asked to you, to provide "proof" of something I have acknowledged myself right here in this very thread.

Desperate.... :lol:


Aye, I think I called your situation correctly.


That's fine. but I did want to ask one thing about your post with all the countries. Do all the countries give the title "rights" for same sex marriage? Or do some of them simply recognize same sex marriage, or some of them don't regulate marriage at all, or some of them have different versions of marriage (like we have civil unions and domestic partnerships for non-traditional situations).
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:22 am

Thinking about this situation in terms of "rights" really isn't going to help.

"Rights" is a fancy word people use when they state that X cannot be done to them (negative rights) or Y must be done for others (positive rights).

You can't simply point at a place and say, "gee, right X is being enforced there" or "rights A-C are UNIVERSAL and ALL OVER THE PLACE," because none of that is useful.

1. Define terms.
Marriage is a contract; it's an agreement between two parties. Some marriages have religious ceremonies (Catholic), and other marriages do not (atheist/whatever).

2. Insert argument.
e.g.
a. Marriage can only be granted to heterosexual couples because.... [insert benefits and costs of various aspects].
b. Marriage can be granted to both hetero and homosexual couples because.... [insert benefits and costs of various aspects].

And there you go; just don't delve into the "because it's a right" argument. That would be stupid. Same goes for "cuz tradition" [without consequential explanation about a change to tradition----NONE of which has been given], and "cuz bestiality, incest, pedophilia" because that's just stupid. The only people that assert such a stance are pundits, and no one should be as stupid as a pundit ITT.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:24 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Desperate.... :lol:


Aye, I think I called your situation correctly.


That's fine. but I did want to ask one thing about your post with all the countries. Do all the countries give the title "rights" for same sex marriage? Or do some of them simply recognize same sex marriage, or some of them don't regulate marriage at all, or some of them have different versions of marriage (like we have civil unions and domestic partnerships for non-traditional situations).


Feel free to investigate as far as your curiosity impels you.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:08 am

it's the right of the people to say what marriage is or isn't.

I don't have to "argue" for traditional marriage, or give a reason why it's important (although I have given many). Traditional marriage is what we already have, and it's all we've ever had. I'm not trying to change anything.

If given the chance, I won't vote in any way to give the government more power, and I will not vote for any particular amendment that increases government spending, and I try to hold that for all issues regardless.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:35 am

:|
North American Indians practiced same-sex marriage before you white people showed up and murdered everybody.

Also, that same argument was used for interracial marriage. "Where in the world and when in history have the races ever mixed?"
Actually, it's still being used by skinheads today.
I can guarantee you that your argument was also used to oppress Women and Negros in American history.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:39 am

Image


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