If Marriage Is a Fundamental Right, Then?

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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:05 am

thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Can we go back to what the problem is with the following potential law change:

"Gay couples will be recognized as married with respect to federal and state law."

I'm not sure I (still) understand what the problem is.


which means....if passed......that "gender does not matter"......correct?


Correct.

Any thoughts?

TGD, if gender doesn't matter anymore in civilized society, all the men are going to go into women's restrooms. This emphasis on gender is the only thing stopping us.


--Andy


My freshman year of college we had co-ed restrooms and nothing bad happened. I know it's only anecdotal evidence... but still.


Well, that's what they want you to think. Any rapist reserves the right to enter any bathroom he or she pleases, and if the traditional bathroom is thrown out, then uh uh uh uh you're wrong.


I dedicate the above argument to Phatscotty.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:38 pm

Phatscotty wrote:So because a handful of countries interpret rights extremely Liberally over the last 10 years.....that means it's a right all around the world and for everyone in the world?


Isn't Denmark the same country you tried to use a court case from just a couple of days ago?
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:39 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Also, since 2000 is the first time anyone did this, is it fair to say gay marriage was "invented/created" 12 years ago?


No, it is not. I thought you knew history? Do you only know American history?
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:41 pm

Phatscotty wrote:it's the right of the people to say what marriage is or isn't.


To use your own argument...where is that detailed in the Constitution?

Phatscotty wrote:I don't have to "argue" for traditional marriage, or give a reason why it's important (although I have given many). Traditional marriage is what we already have, and it's all we've ever had. I'm not trying to change anything.


This is a lie.

Phatscotty wrote:If given the chance, I won't vote in any way to give the government more power, and I will not vote for any particular amendment that increases government spending, and I try to hold that for all issues regardless.


Unless it's to drug test welfare recipients, of course.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby crispybits on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:45 pm

I'm starting to think I may have been a little unfair and PS was actually trying to argue his position, it's just the few sentences and logical fallcies and irrelevant tangents he keeps going back to ARE the extent of his argument. He just doesn't seem to have anything else to back it up with, so it's less a case of unwillingness to provide rational explanations and logical defences, and more a case of inability to do so.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:51 pm

crispybits wrote:I'm starting to think I may have been a little unfair and PS was actually trying to argue his position, it's just the few sentences and logical fallcies and irrelevant tangents he keeps going back to ARE the extent of his argument. He just doesn't seem to have anything else to back it up with, so it's less a case of unwillingness to provide rational explanations and logical defences, and more a case of inability to do so.


There are rational reasons* to defend the historic view of marriage, they just don't coincide with Phatscotty's view of smaller government so it's harder for him to argue.

* I note the term "rational reasons" are religious in nature and thus may not be rational to most people.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby crispybits on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:54 pm

If the defence for the historic view of marriage is purely religious (and I think some would disagree with you), then the fact that there are recognised religions that are happy to conduct gay marriage ceremonies would mean that in the USA at least, the government should be powerless to prevent that. Separation of church and state and all that.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:03 pm

crispybits wrote:If the defence for the historic view of marriage is purely religious (and I think some would disagree with you), then the fact that there are recognised religions that are happy to conduct gay marriage ceremonies would mean that in the USA at least, the government should be powerless to prevent that. Separation of church and state and all that.


I don't disagree with that and it's an interesting take.

If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby crispybits on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:19 pm

Given that (again talking in the USA here) a church can refuse to marry someone for a whole variety of reasons (spouse of different religion/denomination, previous divorces, etc) I think that churches in the US are safe from being forced (again, separation of church and state, works both ways)
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:24 pm

thegreekdog wrote:If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


I've been curious of comments like this, since I've heard it multiple times for years out here in California. Is forcing religions to perform same sex marriages actually on the table, or is it one of the talking points of those against in order to drum up support for an issue that isn't there in the first place?

I ask because it doesn't make sense to me why changing the definition of marriage would actually cause this to happen. I am not a religious person and, to my knowledge, a mosque, synagogue, etc would not be required to have performed my wedding ceremony if I had asked. I can't imagine what would happen if I walked up to a Scientology or Mormon institution and told them they were required to marry me simply because I am heterosexual.

edit: Looks like I was fastposted by Crispy as I was writing my response.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:29 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


I've been curious of comments like this, since I've heard it multiple times for years out here in California. Is forcing religions to perform same sex marriages actually on the table, or is it one of the talking points of those against in order to drum up support for an issue that isn't there in the first place?

I ask because it doesn't make sense to me why changing the definition of marriage would actually cause this to happen. I am not a religious person and, to my knowledge, a mosque, synagogue, etc would not be required to have performed my wedding ceremony if I had asked. I can't imagine what would happen if I walked up to a Scientology or Mormon institution and told them they were required to marry me simply because I am heterosexual.

edit: Looks like I was fastposted by Crispy as I was writing my response.


Time will tell.....

My prediction: wherever same sex marriage is recognized, free religion and free speech will be restricted.. You can see how this is already happening in places that recognize same sex marriage.

Obama is smart like the devil, and fundamental transformation is in process. Same sex marriage, whatever your position on it, is being used, and once they get it, it will be abused.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:05 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Time will tell.....

My prediction: wherever same sex marriage is recognized, free religion and free speech will be restricted. You can see how this is already happening in places that recognize same sex marriage.

Agreed. I see it playing out like this.

Those homosexuals get marriage equality recognition. Cut to a gay pride parade goosestepping through the streets of any given metropolis, while Christian crosses line the pavement, so they are effectively stomping all over religion. Cut to scenes of horror (also known as Home Alone scenes) with people bringing their hands up to either side of their face. Cut to a completely different gay pride parade goosestepping through streets of another metropolis, this time stomping all over newspapers and manifestos that line the pavement. Cut to more scenes of horror/home alone. Cut to a ticking clock which ticks, ticks, ticks, and then abruptly stops. Cut to a view of Earth from space, and a massive nuclear explosion. Cut to aliens solemnly shaking their head, speaking alienese that in subtitles read: "If only. If only..."


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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:22 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
crispybits wrote:If the defence for the historic view of marriage is purely religious (and I think some would disagree with you), then the fact that there are recognised religions that are happy to conduct gay marriage ceremonies would mean that in the USA at least, the government should be powerless to prevent that. Separation of church and state and all that.


I don't disagree with that and it's an interesting take.

If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


Me too.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:24 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


I've been curious of comments like this, since I've heard it multiple times for years out here in California. Is forcing religions to perform same sex marriages actually on the table, or is it one of the talking points of those against in order to drum up support for an issue that isn't there in the first place?


It isn't really on the table, no. It's "one of those fears".

Bones2484 wrote:I ask because it doesn't make sense to me why changing the definition of marriage would actually cause this to happen. I am not a religious person and, to my knowledge, a mosque, synagogue, etc would not be required to have performed my wedding ceremony if I had asked. I can't imagine what would happen if I walked up to a Scientology or Mormon institution and told them they were required to marry me simply because I am heterosexual.


Correct. The pastor who married my wife and I required that we attend a certain number of family counseling sessions before he would agree to marry us. If we weren't willing to do that, he'd have walked away.

(FWIW, that was a wonderful thing he did for us, really.)
Last edited by Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:26 pm

Phatscotty wrote:My prediction: wherever same sex marriage is recognized, free religion and free speech will be restricted.


What basis is there for that prediction?

Phatscotty wrote:You can see how this is already happening in places that recognize same sex marriage.


You mean in places that don't recognize separation of church and state, or possibly places that don't recognize free religion/free speech? Or in some other places?
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby b.k. barunt on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:34 pm

Ok ok! So let the mos and bos get married. It seems to be the politically correct thing to do and the supporters of such would champion their rights to marry their fooking Chihuahuas if they were told that was progressive behavior. I for one am willing to give in here - let them marry. Enough already. However, for the sake of simple clarity if nothing else, the brides of these absurd unions must never be allowed to wear white.


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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:40 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:Ok ok! So let the mos and bos get married. It seems to be the politically correct thing to do and the supporters of such would champion their rights to marry their fooking Chihuahuas if they were told that was progressive behavior. I for one am willing to give in here - let them marry. Enough already. However, for the sake of simple clarity if nothing else, the brides of these absurd unions must never be allowed to wear white.


I have wondered if that particular tradition is even followed any longer. For instance, my wife shouldn't have worn white (she was pregnant at the time), but she wanted to wear my mother's wedding dress (which was white). So she did.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:12 pm

Phatscotty wrote:My prediction: wherever same sex marriage is recognized, free religion and free speech will be restricted.. You can see how this is already happening in places that recognize same sex marriage.

Obama is smart like the devil, and fundamental transformation is in process. Same sex marriage, whatever your position on it, is being used, and once they get it, it will be abused.


I'm sure next you'll be telling me that you still aren't making any slippery slope arguments in this thread.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:44 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


I've been curious of comments like this, since I've heard it multiple times for years out here in California. Is forcing religions to perform same sex marriages actually on the table, or is it one of the talking points of those against in order to drum up support for an issue that isn't there in the first place?

I ask because it doesn't make sense to me why changing the definition of marriage would actually cause this to happen. I am not a religious person and, to my knowledge, a mosque, synagogue, etc would not be required to have performed my wedding ceremony if I had asked. I can't imagine what would happen if I walked up to a Scientology or Mormon institution and told them they were required to marry me simply because I am heterosexual.

edit: Looks like I was fastposted by Crispy as I was writing my response.


Woodruff got it right. "Forcing religions to marry gays" is one of the slippery slope arguments that gay marriage opponents use. It's absurd.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:46 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:My prediction: wherever same sex marriage is recognized, free religion and free speech will be restricted.. You can see how this is already happening in places that recognize same sex marriage.

Obama is smart like the devil, and fundamental transformation is in process. Same sex marriage, whatever your position on it, is being used, and once they get it, it will be abused.


I'm sure next you'll be telling me that you still aren't making any slippery slope arguments in this thread.


PS is ignoring a lot of things here.

First, as someone indicated before, religions aren't required to marry anyone, even for racially based reasons.
Second, a few months ago Phatscotty was railing about how President Obama used to be against gay marriage and had flip-flopped; now he's saying President Obama had this all planned from the beginning.
Third, slippery slope argument, which I've outlawed. So I'm still waiting.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby notyou2 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:52 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:Ok ok! So let the mos and bos get married. It seems to be the politically correct thing to do and the supporters of such would champion their rights to marry their fooking Chihuahuas if they were told that was progressive behavior. I for one am willing to give in here - let them marry. Enough already. However, for the sake of simple clarity if nothing else, the brides of these absurd unions must never be allowed to wear white.


Honibaz


See if you can talk his Phatness into it.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:57 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:If a law were being considered where the federal government would require churches, mosques, synangogues, and the like to perform same sex marriages, I would be fully against such a law (under First Amendment grounds).


I've been curious of comments like this, since I've heard it multiple times for years out here in California. Is forcing religions to perform same sex marriages actually on the table, or is it one of the talking points of those against in order to drum up support for an issue that isn't there in the first place?

I ask because it doesn't make sense to me why changing the definition of marriage would actually cause this to happen. I am not a religious person and, to my knowledge, a mosque, synagogue, etc would not be required to have performed my wedding ceremony if I had asked. I can't imagine what would happen if I walked up to a Scientology or Mormon institution and told them they were required to marry me simply because I am heterosexual.

edit: Looks like I was fastposted by Crispy as I was writing my response.



Well, the deal is that Churches perform Weddings.
They don't perform Marriages, because that's a legally binding contract. For that you need to involve the government.

And so, the logical argument is that each church can decide on their own what type of Weddings they will perform, while the government will handle the legal aspect of Marriage Contracts.

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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:13 pm

crispybits wrote:Given that (again talking in the USA here) a church can refuse to marry someone for a whole variety of reasons (spouse of different religion/denomination, previous divorces, etc) I think that churches in the US are safe from being forced (again, separation of church and state, works both ways)


PS and many of them simply disagree.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby tzor on Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:20 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Woodruff got it right. "Forcing religions to marry gays" is one of the slippery slope arguments that gay marriage opponents use. It's absurd.


Why?

Why is it absurd?

It's not much of a slippery slope. In states where same gender marriage is legal we already have precedent that any business that is open to the public must equally support same gender and mixed gender. This includes everyone from bed and breakfasts to cake bakers. If you open your church to non members of your church you are "open to the public."

In some countries where same gender marriage is legal they have laws that force churches to allow same gender marriages.

It's not absurd at all; it's a poor attempt to dodge the issue by claiming it is so.
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Re: If Marriage Is a Fundemental Right, Then...?

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:22 pm

tzor wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Woodruff got it right. "Forcing religions to marry gays" is one of the slippery slope arguments that gay marriage opponents use. It's absurd.


Why?

Why is it absurd?

It's not much of a slippery slope. In states where same gender marriage is legal we already have precedent that any business that is open to the public must equally support same gender and mixed gender. This includes everyone from bed and breakfasts to cake bakers. If you open your church to non members of your church you are "open to the public."

In some countries where same gender marriage is legal they have laws that force churches to allow same gender marriages.

It's not absurd at all; it's a poor attempt to dodge the issue by claiming it is so.


I appreciate your ability to make a post in this forum, but without a single credible source proving that a US State Government forced a church to marry a gay couple your post is completely useless. I don't give a shit what has happened in other countries as that is not on the table here and has never been. What other countries do is their business.

Furthermore, "forcing" public businesses to serve everyone has been around a lot longer than gay marriage. Most states cover this in anti-discrimination laws dating way back to as early as the 1960s.
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