Well-regulated militias

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Would you join the Troll Forest Bridge?

Yes
10
63%
No
1
6%
I'm a conscientious objector.
1
6%
I object to kittens.
2
13%
Kittens are not an object.
2
13%
 
Total votes : 16

Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:06 am

patches70 wrote:I don't know why you are asking the question about militias that you are. How is it that you don't know anything about what you already are? You are an American citizen, BBS? Then you are part of the militia. Unless you are in the military, and for some reason you don't strike me as the professional soldier type. I could be wrong about that, but if I'm not, then you already belong to the militia. Whether you like it or not!


I'm a proud, non-card-carrying member of the Troll Forest Brigade, but I don't recall signing up for "the militia."
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby patches70 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:24 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
patches70 wrote:I don't know why you are asking the question about militias that you are. How is it that you don't know anything about what you already are? You are an American citizen, BBS? Then you are part of the militia. Unless you are in the military, and for some reason you don't strike me as the professional soldier type. I could be wrong about that, but if I'm not, then you already belong to the militia. Whether you like it or not!


I'm a proud, non-card-carrying member of the Troll Forest Brigade, but I don't recall signing up for "the militia."


You certainly didn't sign up, but you are a member of the militia regardless. Should I explain or are you going to take my word for it?
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:27 am

patches70 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
patches70 wrote:I don't know why you are asking the question about militias that you are. How is it that you don't know anything about what you already are? You are an American citizen, BBS? Then you are part of the militia. Unless you are in the military, and for some reason you don't strike me as the professional soldier type. I could be wrong about that, but if I'm not, then you already belong to the militia. Whether you like it or not!


I'm a proud, non-card-carrying member of the Troll Forest Brigade, but I don't recall signing up for "the militia."


You certainly didn't sign up, but you are a member of the militia regardless. Should I explain or are you going to take my word for it?


You're gonna hafta tease out your reasoning on this one.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby patches70 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:38 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
patches70 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
patches70 wrote:I don't know why you are asking the question about militias that you are. How is it that you don't know anything about what you already are? You are an American citizen, BBS? Then you are part of the militia. Unless you are in the military, and for some reason you don't strike me as the professional soldier type. I could be wrong about that, but if I'm not, then you already belong to the militia. Whether you like it or not!


I'm a proud, non-card-carrying member of the Troll Forest Brigade, but I don't recall signing up for "the militia."


You certainly didn't sign up, but you are a member of the militia regardless. Should I explain or are you going to take my word for it?


You're gonna hafta tease out your reasoning on this one.


Look, man, I gotta head out and do some work and won't be back until later tonight. I'll get more specific at that time. For now I'll leave you this to contemplate upon-

I want you to look at these pictures. Keep in mind that at the time these people were civilians who probably thought they weren't part of a militia either-

Image

Image

Image

These poor fools didn't think they had any obligations either. They learned the folly of their thinking eventually. Though I grant you that each and everyone was put into very tough positions where certain choices had to be made, and every choice sucked.

But indeed, you are in the militia whether you think you are or not and if circumstances came around similar to what these poor saps had to deal with, then you'll find that your "I never signed a contract" argument won't be worth the rope that is used to hang you with. Each and every citizen of the US is in the militia, the unorganized militia. I'm not saying it's fair, but life rarely is fair as you well know yourself.

But I'll explain in detail later. Till then, Tooddle Loo and keep up the good fight.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:00 am

patches70 wrote:But indeed, you are in the militia whether you think you are or not and if circumstances came around similar to what these poor saps had to deal with, then you'll find that your "I never signed a contract" argument won't be worth the rope that is used to hang you with. Each and every citizen of the US is in the militia, the unorganized militia. I'm not saying it's fair, but life rarely is fair as you well know yourself.

But I'll explain in detail later. Till then, Tooddle Loo and keep up the good fight.


According to the Wikipedia and the Militia Act of 1903, also known as the Dick Act (terrific name), "...every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age who is not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia, are part of the 'unorganized militia'. [That is anyone who would be eligible for a draft.] Former members of the armed forces up to age 65 are also considered part of the 'unorganized militia' "


--Andy
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:10 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Interesting, but I'll settle on the scholars' interpretation instead.


Like this one? THE MILITIA AND THE CONSTITUTION: A LEGAL HISTORY Educational purposes only; can't actually quote it.

Or this one RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS (Lincoln University of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania)
When the U.S. Constitution was adopted, each of the states had its own "militia" - a military force comprised of ordinary citizens serving as part-time soldiers. The militia was "well-regulated" in the sense that its members were subject to various requirements such as training, supplying their own firearms, and engaging in military exercises away from home. It was a form of compulsory military service intended to protect the fledgling nation from outside forces and from internal rebellions.

The "militia" was not, as the gun lobby will often claim, simply another word for the people at large. Indeed, membership in the 18th century militia was generally limited to able-bodied white males between the ages of 18 and 45 - hardly encompassing the entire population of the nation.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:46 pm

tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Interesting, but I'll settle on the scholars' interpretation instead.


Like this one? THE MILITIA AND THE CONSTITUTION: A LEGAL HISTORY Educational purposes only; can't actually quote it.

Or this one RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS (Lincoln University of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania)
When the U.S. Constitution was adopted, each of the states had its own "militia" - a military force comprised of ordinary citizens serving as part-time soldiers. The militia was "well-regulated" in the sense that its members were subject to various requirements such as training, supplying their own firearms, and engaging in military exercises away from home. It was a form of compulsory military service intended to protect the fledgling nation from outside forces and from internal rebellions.

The "militia" was not, as the gun lobby will often claim, simply another word for the people at large. Indeed, membership in the 18th century militia was generally limited to able-bodied white males between the ages of 18 and 45 - hardly encompassing the entire population of the nation.


Still not seeing that:

(1) " "militias" are state entities." (Sure, each State had a militia, but it doesn't follow that all militias are 'state entities'--whatever that term may mean to you).

(2) "militias were supposed to be the jurisdiction of the states at the time the Constitution was written. " (Still not seeing how militias were SUPPOSE to be under the jurisdiction of each State. It doesn't state that in the Constitution, nor does your source's definition of "militia" confirm either of your points).

The underlined is irrelevant.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:53 pm

patches70 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
patches70 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
patches70 wrote:I don't know why you are asking the question about militias that you are. How is it that you don't know anything about what you already are? You are an American citizen, BBS? Then you are part of the militia. Unless you are in the military, and for some reason you don't strike me as the professional soldier type. I could be wrong about that, but if I'm not, then you already belong to the militia. Whether you like it or not!


I'm a proud, non-card-carrying member of the Troll Forest Brigade, but I don't recall signing up for "the militia."


You certainly didn't sign up, but you are a member of the militia regardless. Should I explain or are you going to take my word for it?


You're gonna hafta tease out your reasoning on this one.


Look, man, I gotta head out and do some work and won't be back until later tonight. I'll get more specific at that time. For now I'll leave you this to contemplate upon-

I want you to look at these pictures. Keep in mind that at the time these people were civilians who probably thought they weren't part of a militia either-

Image

Image

Image

These poor fools didn't think they had any obligations either. They learned the folly of their thinking eventually. Though I grant you that each and everyone was put into very tough positions where certain choices had to be made, and every choice sucked.

But indeed, you are in the militia whether you think you are or not and if circumstances came around similar to what these poor saps had to deal with, then you'll find that your "I never signed a contract" argument won't be worth the rope that is used to hang you with. Each and every citizen of the US is in the militia, the unorganized militia. I'm not saying it's fair, but life rarely is fair as you well know yourself.

But I'll explain in detail later. Till then, Tooddle Loo and keep up the good fight.


Sure, any group of armed thugs can conscript you. I wouldn't say that this makes me a member of the unorganized militia. I'm simply susceptible to temporary slavery by criminal organizations---oops, I mean by the government.
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Postby 2dimes on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:01 pm

When does troll forest bridge meet in Montana? Can someone store my weapons? Taking them back and forth is a bother.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:41 pm

On the Cyberwebz, we travel faster than the speed of light, so no worries 'bout all that.
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Postby 2dimes on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:46 pm

Oh so basically I have a concealed carry permit for my side arm and have a mig-29. Cool!
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:57 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Still not seeing that:


Article 2: Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.


Thus, unless called into the service of the "United" States they remain under the command of the several States.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby ooge on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:44 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
ooge wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
ooge wrote:As long as the government does not view a few guys playing army with themselves, "a militia" as a threat, they will ignore it.Once they view it as a threat the government will squash it like a bug.It seems to me that millitia people when faced with a real situation will pee their pants and cry for their mommy's


I'm actually not sure how the relevant bureaucrats view private militias within US borders, but there seems to have been a bad history for any militia which arms itself.


You could have just said you agreed with me :lol:


I kinda want to agree, but that would be too easy. I must continue fighting for Justice.

(I want to say that the government will tend to view any well-regulated, private militia as a threat to its own hold on The People, so it'll find ways to justify crushing such forms of self-government).


I dont blame you,I made it harder to agree with me when I added the peeing their pants part :lol:
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:41 pm

tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Still not seeing that:


Article 2: Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.


Thus, unless called into the service of the "United" States they remain under the command of the several States.


Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.

Hmm, so far anyone can create a well-regulated militia but if Obama says, "disband," then they must disband or (probably be killed or fined or prosecuted in whatever order).
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:42 pm

ooge wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
ooge wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
ooge wrote:As long as the government does not view a few guys playing army with themselves, "a militia" as a threat, they will ignore it.Once they view it as a threat the government will squash it like a bug.It seems to me that millitia people when faced with a real situation will pee their pants and cry for their mommy's


I'm actually not sure how the relevant bureaucrats view private militias within US borders, but there seems to have been a bad history for any militia which arms itself.


You could have just said you agreed with me :lol:


I kinda want to agree, but that would be too easy. I must continue fighting for Justice.

(I want to say that the government will tend to view any well-regulated, private militia as a threat to its own hold on The People, so it'll find ways to justify crushing such forms of self-government).


I dont blame you,I made it harder to agree with me when I added the peeing their pants part :lol:


I always enjoy some good imagery, ooge! I just wanted to add to the underlined.

JESUS CHRIST< OOGE. FFS
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:47 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Still not seeing that:


Article 2: Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.


Thus, unless called into the service of the "United" States they remain under the command of the several States.


Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.

Hmm, so far anyone can create a well-regulated militia but if Obama says, "disband," then they must disband or (probably be killed or fined or prosecuted in whatever order).


Are you changing your points to be exclusive to US militia?
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:25 am

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Still not seeing that:


Article 2: Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.


Thus, unless called into the service of the "United" States they remain under the command of the several States.


Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.

Hmm, so far anyone can create a well-regulated militia but if Obama says, "disband," then they must disband or (probably be killed or fined or prosecuted in whatever order).


Are you changing your points to be exclusive to US militia?


Not really sure what the underlined means, and IIRC I really don't have a point in this thread--just a few questions, and we've made progress.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby Symmetry on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:30 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Still not seeing that:


Article 2: Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.


Thus, unless called into the service of the "United" States they remain under the command of the several States.


Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.

Hmm, so far anyone can create a well-regulated militia but if Obama says, "disband," then they must disband or (probably be killed or fined or prosecuted in whatever order).


Are you changing your points to be exclusive to US militia?


Not really sure what the underlined means, and IIRC I really don't have a point in this thread--just a few questions, and we've made progress.


Toward what goal?
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby fadedpsychosis on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:08 am

tzor wrote:It should be pointed out, if you really want to go with what the second amendment is supposed to be about, that "militias" are state entities. Not that the Federal Government cares a wit anymore what the states do or think these days, but militias were supposed to be the jurisdiction of the states at the time the Constitution was written. So if the state is cool with a "private" militia then that should be enough; if not, then they are illegal.

thus why I said national guard: state regulated, not federal

patches70 wrote:I don't know why you are asking the question about militias that you are. How is it that you don't know anything about what you already are? You are an American citizen, BBS? Then you are part of the militia. Unless you are in the military, and for some reason you don't strike me as the professional soldier type. I could be wrong about that, but if I'm not, then you already belong to the militia. Whether you like it or not!

wo-hoo! I'm not part of the militia!

seriously though, are you referring to the selective service act, or am I missing something?

Symmetry wrote:Toward what goal?

utter confusion?
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:11 am

Symmetry wrote:
Toward what goal?


Onward!
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:31 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.


Oh my, you really don't know how to read, do you? Do tell me, what part of the conditional clause " when called into the actual Service of the United States" do you have a time understanding.

The President is CiC of ...
  • The Army
  • The Navy
  • State Militias ONLY WHEN CALLED INTO THE SERVICE OF THE UNITED STATES

So when not called into service they remain with the states.

We really need a face palm smiley here.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:26 pm

That's nice, tzor. I'll give you 0.38 cents back for that point.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:58 am

It should be questioned whether the National Guards still meet the constitutional definition of Militias.

Constitutional Intent: Militia is a state military force that can only be nationalized by explicit consent of Congress or approval of the Governor.


Current Situation: In 2007 Congress passed legislation allowing the President to nationalize the National Guards without explicit consent of Congress or approval of the Governor.

Over objections from all 50 governors, Congress in October tweaked the 200-year-old Insurrection Act to empower the hand of the president in future stateside emergencies.

http://www.pewstates.org/projects/state ... 5899386966


The Total Force Doctrine has essentially abrogated the Governor's power since the 70s anyway. It wouldn't be politically possible for a Governor in a large state to deny a regular Army division their round-out brigade by refusing the President permission to nationalize his state's National Guard.

Those 20 or so states that maintain Defense Forces separate from their National Guards are probably the only ones that still have militias in the sense the term was intended:
https://www.usaa.com/inet/pages/200912_ ... irect=true
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:02 pm

saxitoxin wrote:It should be questioned whether the National Guards still meet the constitutional definition of Militias.


The role of militia, also known as military service and duty, in the United States is complex and has transformed over time.[1] The term militia can be used to describe any number of groups within the United States. Primarily, these fall into:
The organized militia created by the Militia Act of 1903, which split from the 1792 Uniform Militia forces, and consist of State militia forces, notably the National Guard and the Naval Militia.[2] The National Guard however, is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States, which is a federally recognized reserve military force, although the two are linked.
Constitution - Article II - The Executive Branch Section 2 - Clause 1:The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States when called into the actual service of the United States. [Article 2,Section 2 of the US Constitution]...
The reserve militia[3] or unorganized militia, which is presently defined by the Militia Act of 1903 to consist of every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age who is not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.(That is, anyone who would be eligible for a draft.) Former members of the armed forces up to age 65 are also considered part of the "unorganized militia" per Sec 313 Title 32 of the US Code.[2]


The National Guard (or National Guard of a State) differs from the National Guard of the United States; however, the two do go hand-in-hand.
The National Guard is a militia force organized by each of the states and territories of the United States. Established under Title 10 and Title 32 of the U.S. Code, state National Guard serves as part of the first-line defense for the United States.[35] The state National Guard is divided up into units stationed in each of the 50 states and U.S. territories and operates under their respective state governor or territorial government.[36] The National Guard may be called up for active duty by the state governors or territorial commanding generals to help respond to domestic emergencies and disasters, such as those caused by hurricanes, floods, and earthquakes.[36]
The National Guard of the United States is a military reserve force composed of state National Guard members or units under federally recognized active or inactive armed force service for the United States.[37][38] Created by the Militia Act of 1903, the National Guard of the United States is a joint reserve component of the United States Army and the United States Air Force. The National Guard of the United States maintains two subcomponents: the Army National Guard of the United States [37] for the Army and the Air Force's Air National Guard of the United States.[37]
The current United States Code, Title 10 (Armed forces), section 311 (Militia: Composition and Classes), paragraph (a) states: "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."[39] Section 313 of Title 32 refers to persons with prior military experience. ("Sec. 313. Appointments and enlistments: age limitation (a) To be eligible for original enlistment in the National Guard, a person must be at least 17 years of age and under 45, or under 64 years of age and a former member of the Regular Army, Regular Navy, Regular Air Force, or Regular Marine Corps. To be eligible for reenlistment, a person must be under 64 years of age.(b) To be eligible for appointment as an officer of the National Guard, a person must - (1) be a citizen of the United States; and(2) be at least 18 years of age and under 64."
These persons remain members of the militia until age 64. Paragraph (b) further states, "The classes of the militia are: (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."[40]


Since the Militia Act of 1903 Many states have created and maintained a reserve military force known as state defense forces (Some states refer to them as state military reserve, state guard, or foot guard). They were created to assist, support and augment National Guard forces during peacetime conditions. Also during the call up of National Guard forces for wartime deployments, state defense forces can be used to assume the full military responsibilities of the state. Their mission includes the defense of the state and the enforcement of military orders when ordered by their Governor.
Throughout the 20th Century, state defense forces were used in every major war. New York Guard Soldiers patrolled and secured the water aqueduct of New York, mass transit areas, and were even deployed to France to assist in logistical operations in World War I. Texas State Guard Soldiers suppressed a riot and maintained peace and order in Texas throughout World War II.
Today state defense forces continue to assist, support and augment the National Guard of the state. They provide logistical, administration, medical, transportation, security, and ceremonial assistance. Some States have provided additional support such as The New York State Defense Force (New York Guard) providing its Soldiers to help support and augment The National Guard CERFP Team. The California State Military Reserve provides the National Guard with Soldiers to assist with military police training and the Alaska State Defense Force constantly provides armed military police troops to assist with the security of Alaska.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby fadedpsychosis on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:12 am

so for TLDR, the State National Guard IS a militia, and is called to duty by the State governor until it is called to active Federal duty at which point it is counted as a reserve component of the National defense force.
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