Well-regulated militias

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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby Symmetry on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:47 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Still not seeing that:


Article 2: Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.


Thus, unless called into the service of the "United" States they remain under the command of the several States.


Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.

Hmm, so far anyone can create a well-regulated militia but if Obama says, "disband," then they must disband or (probably be killed or fined or prosecuted in whatever order).


Are you changing your points to be exclusive to US militia?
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:25 am

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Still not seeing that:


Article 2: Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.


Thus, unless called into the service of the "United" States they remain under the command of the several States.


Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.

Hmm, so far anyone can create a well-regulated militia but if Obama says, "disband," then they must disband or (probably be killed or fined or prosecuted in whatever order).


Are you changing your points to be exclusive to US militia?


Not really sure what the underlined means, and IIRC I really don't have a point in this thread--just a few questions, and we've made progress.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby Symmetry on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:30 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Still not seeing that:


Article 2: Section 2

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.


Thus, unless called into the service of the "United" States they remain under the command of the several States.


Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.

Hmm, so far anyone can create a well-regulated militia but if Obama says, "disband," then they must disband or (probably be killed or fined or prosecuted in whatever order).


Are you changing your points to be exclusive to US militia?


Not really sure what the underlined means, and IIRC I really don't have a point in this thread--just a few questions, and we've made progress.


Toward what goal?
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby fadedpsychosis on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:08 am

tzor wrote:It should be pointed out, if you really want to go with what the second amendment is supposed to be about, that "militias" are state entities. Not that the Federal Government cares a wit anymore what the states do or think these days, but militias were supposed to be the jurisdiction of the states at the time the Constitution was written. So if the state is cool with a "private" militia then that should be enough; if not, then they are illegal.

thus why I said national guard: state regulated, not federal

patches70 wrote:I don't know why you are asking the question about militias that you are. How is it that you don't know anything about what you already are? You are an American citizen, BBS? Then you are part of the militia. Unless you are in the military, and for some reason you don't strike me as the professional soldier type. I could be wrong about that, but if I'm not, then you already belong to the militia. Whether you like it or not!

wo-hoo! I'm not part of the militia!

seriously though, are you referring to the selective service act, or am I missing something?

Symmetry wrote:Toward what goal?

utter confusion?
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:11 am

Symmetry wrote:
Toward what goal?


Onward!
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:31 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Ah, so we've changed from points #1 and #2, and now we've established that the "Militia of the several States" is under the control of the President.


Oh my, you really don't know how to read, do you? Do tell me, what part of the conditional clause " when called into the actual Service of the United States" do you have a time understanding.

The President is CiC of ...
  • The Army
  • The Navy
  • State Militias ONLY WHEN CALLED INTO THE SERVICE OF THE UNITED STATES

So when not called into service they remain with the states.

We really need a face palm smiley here.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:26 pm

That's nice, tzor. I'll give you 0.38 cents back for that point.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:58 am

It should be questioned whether the National Guards still meet the constitutional definition of Militias.

Constitutional Intent: Militia is a state military force that can only be nationalized by explicit consent of Congress or approval of the Governor.


Current Situation: In 2007 Congress passed legislation allowing the President to nationalize the National Guards without explicit consent of Congress or approval of the Governor.

Over objections from all 50 governors, Congress in October tweaked the 200-year-old Insurrection Act to empower the hand of the president in future stateside emergencies.

http://www.pewstates.org/projects/state ... 5899386966


The Total Force Doctrine has essentially abrogated the Governor's power since the 70s anyway. It wouldn't be politically possible for a Governor in a large state to deny a regular Army division their round-out brigade by refusing the President permission to nationalize his state's National Guard.

Those 20 or so states that maintain Defense Forces separate from their National Guards are probably the only ones that still have militias in the sense the term was intended:
https://www.usaa.com/inet/pages/200912_ ... irect=true
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:02 pm

saxitoxin wrote:It should be questioned whether the National Guards still meet the constitutional definition of Militias.


The role of militia, also known as military service and duty, in the United States is complex and has transformed over time.[1] The term militia can be used to describe any number of groups within the United States. Primarily, these fall into:
The organized militia created by the Militia Act of 1903, which split from the 1792 Uniform Militia forces, and consist of State militia forces, notably the National Guard and the Naval Militia.[2] The National Guard however, is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States, which is a federally recognized reserve military force, although the two are linked.
Constitution - Article II - The Executive Branch Section 2 - Clause 1:The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States when called into the actual service of the United States. [Article 2,Section 2 of the US Constitution]...
The reserve militia[3] or unorganized militia, which is presently defined by the Militia Act of 1903 to consist of every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age who is not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.(That is, anyone who would be eligible for a draft.) Former members of the armed forces up to age 65 are also considered part of the "unorganized militia" per Sec 313 Title 32 of the US Code.[2]


The National Guard (or National Guard of a State) differs from the National Guard of the United States; however, the two do go hand-in-hand.
The National Guard is a militia force organized by each of the states and territories of the United States. Established under Title 10 and Title 32 of the U.S. Code, state National Guard serves as part of the first-line defense for the United States.[35] The state National Guard is divided up into units stationed in each of the 50 states and U.S. territories and operates under their respective state governor or territorial government.[36] The National Guard may be called up for active duty by the state governors or territorial commanding generals to help respond to domestic emergencies and disasters, such as those caused by hurricanes, floods, and earthquakes.[36]
The National Guard of the United States is a military reserve force composed of state National Guard members or units under federally recognized active or inactive armed force service for the United States.[37][38] Created by the Militia Act of 1903, the National Guard of the United States is a joint reserve component of the United States Army and the United States Air Force. The National Guard of the United States maintains two subcomponents: the Army National Guard of the United States [37] for the Army and the Air Force's Air National Guard of the United States.[37]
The current United States Code, Title 10 (Armed forces), section 311 (Militia: Composition and Classes), paragraph (a) states: "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."[39] Section 313 of Title 32 refers to persons with prior military experience. ("Sec. 313. Appointments and enlistments: age limitation (a) To be eligible for original enlistment in the National Guard, a person must be at least 17 years of age and under 45, or under 64 years of age and a former member of the Regular Army, Regular Navy, Regular Air Force, or Regular Marine Corps. To be eligible for reenlistment, a person must be under 64 years of age.(b) To be eligible for appointment as an officer of the National Guard, a person must - (1) be a citizen of the United States; and(2) be at least 18 years of age and under 64."
These persons remain members of the militia until age 64. Paragraph (b) further states, "The classes of the militia are: (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."[40]


Since the Militia Act of 1903 Many states have created and maintained a reserve military force known as state defense forces (Some states refer to them as state military reserve, state guard, or foot guard). They were created to assist, support and augment National Guard forces during peacetime conditions. Also during the call up of National Guard forces for wartime deployments, state defense forces can be used to assume the full military responsibilities of the state. Their mission includes the defense of the state and the enforcement of military orders when ordered by their Governor.
Throughout the 20th Century, state defense forces were used in every major war. New York Guard Soldiers patrolled and secured the water aqueduct of New York, mass transit areas, and were even deployed to France to assist in logistical operations in World War I. Texas State Guard Soldiers suppressed a riot and maintained peace and order in Texas throughout World War II.
Today state defense forces continue to assist, support and augment the National Guard of the state. They provide logistical, administration, medical, transportation, security, and ceremonial assistance. Some States have provided additional support such as The New York State Defense Force (New York Guard) providing its Soldiers to help support and augment The National Guard CERFP Team. The California State Military Reserve provides the National Guard with Soldiers to assist with military police training and the Alaska State Defense Force constantly provides armed military police troops to assist with the security of Alaska.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby fadedpsychosis on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:12 am

so for TLDR, the State National Guard IS a militia, and is called to duty by the State governor until it is called to active Federal duty at which point it is counted as a reserve component of the National defense force.
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Postby 2dimes on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:36 am

tzor wrote:We really need a face palm smiley here.

Ok, #-o you should buy a premium membership.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:09 pm

fadedpsychosis wrote:so for TLDR, the State National Guard IS a militia, and is called to duty by the State governor until it is called to active Federal duty at which point it is counted as a reserve component of the National defense force.


Thanks for the summary. Not sure what tzor's main point has changed to though.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:17 pm

tzor wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:It should be questioned whether the National Guards still meet the constitutional definition of Militias.


The role of militia, also known as military service and duty, in the United States is complex and has transformed over time.[1] The term militia can be used to describe any number of groups within the United States. Primarily, these fall into:
The organized militia created by the Militia Act of 1903, which split from the 1792 Uniform Militia forces, and consist of State militia forces, notably the National Guard and the Naval Militia.[2] The National Guard however, is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States, which is a federally recognized reserve military force, although the two are linked.
Constitution - Article II - The Executive Branch Section 2 - Clause 1:The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States when called into the actual service of the United States. [Article 2,Section 2 of the US Constitution]...
The reserve militia[3] or unorganized militia, which is presently defined by the Militia Act of 1903 to consist of every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age who is not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.(That is, anyone who would be eligible for a draft.) Former members of the armed forces up to age 65 are also considered part of the "unorganized militia" per Sec 313 Title 32 of the US Code.[2]


The National Guard (or National Guard of a State) differs from the National Guard of the United States; however, the two do go hand-in-hand.
The National Guard is a militia force organized by each of the states and territories of the United States. Established under Title 10 and Title 32 of the U.S. Code, state National Guard serves as part of the first-line defense for the United States.[35] The state National Guard is divided up into units stationed in each of the 50 states and U.S. territories and operates under their respective state governor or territorial government.[36] The National Guard may be called up for active duty by the state governors or territorial commanding generals to help respond to domestic emergencies and disasters, such as those caused by hurricanes, floods, and earthquakes.[36]
The National Guard of the United States is a military reserve force composed of state National Guard members or units under federally recognized active or inactive armed force service for the United States.[37][38] Created by the Militia Act of 1903, the National Guard of the United States is a joint reserve component of the United States Army and the United States Air Force. The National Guard of the United States maintains two subcomponents: the Army National Guard of the United States [37] for the Army and the Air Force's Air National Guard of the United States.[37]
The current United States Code, Title 10 (Armed forces), section 311 (Militia: Composition and Classes), paragraph (a) states: "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."[39] Section 313 of Title 32 refers to persons with prior military experience. ("Sec. 313. Appointments and enlistments: age limitation (a) To be eligible for original enlistment in the National Guard, a person must be at least 17 years of age and under 45, or under 64 years of age and a former member of the Regular Army, Regular Navy, Regular Air Force, or Regular Marine Corps. To be eligible for reenlistment, a person must be under 64 years of age.(b) To be eligible for appointment as an officer of the National Guard, a person must - (1) be a citizen of the United States; and(2) be at least 18 years of age and under 64."
These persons remain members of the militia until age 64. Paragraph (b) further states, "The classes of the militia are: (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."[40]


Since the Militia Act of 1903 Many states have created and maintained a reserve military force known as state defense forces (Some states refer to them as state military reserve, state guard, or foot guard). They were created to assist, support and augment National Guard forces during peacetime conditions. Also during the call up of National Guard forces for wartime deployments, state defense forces can be used to assume the full military responsibilities of the state. Their mission includes the defense of the state and the enforcement of military orders when ordered by their Governor.
Throughout the 20th Century, state defense forces were used in every major war. New York Guard Soldiers patrolled and secured the water aqueduct of New York, mass transit areas, and were even deployed to France to assist in logistical operations in World War I. Texas State Guard Soldiers suppressed a riot and maintained peace and order in Texas throughout World War II.
Today state defense forces continue to assist, support and augment the National Guard of the state. They provide logistical, administration, medical, transportation, security, and ceremonial assistance. Some States have provided additional support such as The New York State Defense Force (New York Guard) providing its Soldiers to help support and augment The National Guard CERFP Team. The California State Military Reserve provides the National Guard with Soldiers to assist with military police training and the Alaska State Defense Force constantly provides armed military police troops to assist with the security of Alaska.


huh?
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby b.k. barunt on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:38 pm

You actually read all that? I was going to say "huh" without reading it, but before i do i need to determine whether your "huh" is more informed than mine.


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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby fadedpsychosis on Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:49 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:You actually read all that? I was going to say "huh" without reading it, but before i do i need to determine whether your "huh" is more informed than mine.


Honibaz

I did read it, and having some personal knowledge of the subject I summarized for ya.

fadedpsychosis wrote:so for TLDR, the State National Guard IS a militia, and is called to duty by the State governor until it is called to active Federal duty at which point it is counted as a reserve component of the National defense force.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby fadedpsychosis on Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:51 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Thanks for the summary. Not sure what tzor's main point has changed to though.

um.... I think he was using that to say the guard still counts as a militia... y'know, unless they don't
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:09 pm

fadedpsychosis wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Thanks for the summary. Not sure what tzor's main point has changed to though.

um.... I think he was using that to say the guard still counts as a militia... y'know, unless they don't


lol if so, then so what? We'll just have to let tzor unfurl his argument and then refold it.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:17 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:lol if so, then so what? We'll just have to let tzor unfurl his argument and then refold it.


Why do I need to unfurl my argument? I'm not drunk enough to unfurl an argument; especially my own.

I've only been pointing out that at the time of the constitution, the notion of militias was something done by the states, and according to the constitution when called into the service of the federal government was then placed under the President as "Commander in Chief." The right to bear arms in the Constitution was a provision to allow state authority to maintain militias.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:05 pm

tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:lol if so, then so what? We'll just have to let tzor unfurl his argument and then refold it.


Why do I need to unfurl my argument? I'm not drunk enough to unfurl an argument; especially my own.

I've only been pointing out that at the time of the constitution, the notion of militias was something done by the states, and according to the constitution when called into the service of the federal government was then placed under the President as "Commander in Chief." The right to bear arms in the Constitution was a provision to allow state authority to maintain militias.


We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:38 pm

When I have my militia of programmed robotic monkey drones, I look forward to usurping the throne/presidency.

show



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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby b.k. barunt on Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:08 pm

Sorry andy, the Wicked Witch of the West's monkeys would spank your land based monkeys with a simple air assault.


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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:41 pm

We have an alliance, luckily. Part of the Axis of Evil.


--Andy
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:45 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:We'll just have to agree to disagree.


We do that often, I'm told.
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Re: Well-regulated militias

Postby tzor on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:52 pm

Did someone mention Flying Monkies?

I prefer the Flying Monkey bar. Next time I head back to Key West, I'm going to stop there.
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