Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:08 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.

At my plant we have yearly safety education meetings that last about 2 hours. People literally sleep through it. At the end, you're given a safety and regulation quiz, with the answers to the safety and regulation quiz. It's some real professional pencil-whipping.... so...
Next thing you know, we got one moron mixing 5 gallons of straight acid with 10 gallons of chlorine (deadly mustard gas) "to create a super-cleaner," and another turkey removing safety guards and sticking his whole goddamn hand into a giant scissors without locking out the power source. Guess what happened to his hand? At least with the mustard gas nobody got hurt, we just froze our asses off in the parking lot in January.

Now we're kicking off our new "safety awareness week."


wtf. I hope that moron mixing the shit was fired. I wonder how some people can be so fucking dense.

-TG
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:08 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.


If that's true, then it's not surprising given that OSHA has a monopoly on that trade.

I wonder if OSHA will be sued for any of this...


That's not true. OSHA doesn't have a monopoly on safety. They just set national federal guidelines and requirements. Each state has the authority to require more, and each company has the moral obligation to protect their employees. However, when safety starts costing a company more money than they think they could be held accountable for in an accident, they stop caring.
The deal is, every company should have multiple redundant safety procedures. But that costs money, and business is a competition to see who can make the most money. So that's why so many states get lax and don't do inspections. Also, Unions are great for enforcing safety guidelines, but they're on the wain.

Lootifer wrote:See to me thats fucked up.

I am one of the [relative] safety skeptics in my organisation. However here I am arguing on this side of the debate...

Safety should be the number 1 priority in any [industrial/risk facing] organisation.

I agree, but it's not. I'm on day 4 of our "safety week," with meeting every day, and it's been nothing but more pencil whipping. Each company has 'recordables' to send to OSHA, which is essentially anytime someone needs to go to the hospital. So long as we keep that under 5 FOR THE WHOLE YEAR, nobody cares.
We've had only one so far this year, and a second which was uhh... fixed in-house.

But as far as personal safety goes; that's nothing. You should see the food safety aspect for once in your life. You'll never eat again. Our lab techs used to take extra cultures and send them to another lab for private analysis. But then the economy took a hit and they stopped doing that. The state of Illinois still requires weekly cultures though, so the lab techs are instructed to only send the best ones. I mean, we find E.Coli all of the time, listeria sometimes too, and other terrible micro organisms... but there are operable limits to it. So long as we hang below a 10 on the 14 scale (if you understand) then we're still legal.
And then there's the other problem; in the US, the government doesn't require that a company provides sick days. So if you get sick working in a food production facility, you're still required to work. All of these companies put up a front. They say that they encourage workers to take time off if they are sick. But it's a lie.
If I get sick, with say.... the flu,... I have to have a doctors notice for any time that I take off. That's a $20 copay at least, plus it's unpaid time so I'm losing money each day that I take off. Also, the days count against you when you have your yearly employee review, and can be used to fire you. So, at least in the three factories that I've worked in, I've never seen anyone who isn't a manager take sick time. I am honestly quite certain that the lack of sick days gets millions of American sick each year. If my company produces 10,000 unites of peanut butter a day, and one of my workers is on the line with flu, that could be 10,000 units of flunut butter.

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:wtf. I hope that moron mixing the shit was fired. I wonder how some people can be so fucking dense.

-TG

No, they sent him to work with me for a while. :lol:
But sadly this stuff is pretty common. He's the third one to make mustard gas in the 4 years I've been at this plant. And yeah, he's pretty dumb, but I don't really blame him. What do you expect when you pay someone $2 above minimum wage and give them a shitty redundant job with no safety training? Some of these guys, myself included, are also forced to work absolutely ridiculous hours. For example, I was promised that I would work 8-5 Monday through Friday, with no weekends. But instead, now I work
Mond - Wedns 11am - 8 pm,
Thurs - Friday 7am - 3:30 pm,
Saturday first or third shift
And mine isn't as bad as other's, especially shipping & receiving. You can't adjust to any time shift, so you're always tired. You're tired, doing a redundant job for shitty pay. Sometimes it's like you're set-up for failure.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:35 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.


If that's true, then it's not surprising given that OSHA has a monopoly on that trade.

I wonder if OSHA will be sued for any of this...


That's not true. OSHA doesn't have a monopoly on safety. They just set national federal guidelines and requirements.


So, they got a monopoly on that trade.

Anyway, do you think the State should be held culpable for failing to enough inspections?
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:57 pm

You literally cannot have a monopoly on safety. It's impossible. Setting guidelines is not the same as enforcing safe practices.
And OSHA actually tells companies that they will not mother them, and that they will therefor be held accountable for any accidents.

Nobody should be held accountable till we know what happened.


Hypothetically speaking, if the company was following OSHA's gmp's, then it's OSHA who is to blame, along with anyone who might have noticed the unsafe practice and did nothing to end it.
But honestly, I really doubt that this was the case.
And if the company wasn't following OSHA's guidelines, then the business managers are to blame, along with anyone who might have noticed the unsafe practice and did nothing to end it.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:34 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:You literally cannot have a monopoly on safety. I


I didn't say that.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby notyou2 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:13 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.


If that's true, then it's not surprising given that OSHA has a monopoly on that trade.

I wonder if OSHA will be sued for any of this...


That's not true. OSHA doesn't have a monopoly on safety. They just set national federal guidelines and requirements.


So, they got a monopoly on that trade.

Anyway, do you think the State should be held culpable for failing to enough inspections?


Does the government have a monopoly on the judicial system?

I say let free enterprise take over the judicial system.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby ooge on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:15 pm

A state that brags about its ability to get rid of regulation,sadly not surprising to see this happens.A refinery in Texas will have a fire or blow up next.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:41 am

notyou2 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.


If that's true, then it's not surprising given that OSHA has a monopoly on that trade.

I wonder if OSHA will be sued for any of this...


That's not true. OSHA doesn't have a monopoly on safety. They just set national federal guidelines and requirements.


So, they got a monopoly on that trade.

Anyway, do you think the State should be held culpable for failing to enough inspections?


Does the government have a monopoly on the judicial system?

I say let free enterprise take over the judicial system.


Yeah, it does---so far as the provision of courts, justices, and all that goes.

I'd be down for that.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:06 pm

It's funny that we know almost everything about the Boston bombers but so little about the person or persons responsible for not conducting inspections, skirting inspections and stock piling this much fertilizer even though their actions killed and injured many more people.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby muy_thaiguy on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:07 pm

Woodruff wrote:It's funny that we know almost everything about the Boston bombers but so little about the person or persons responsible for not conducting inspections, skirting inspections and stock piling this much fertilizer even though their actions killed and injured many more people.

And basically leveled the town that was right there.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:34 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
Woodruff wrote:It's funny that we know almost everything about the Boston bombers but so little about the person or persons responsible for not conducting inspections, skirting inspections and stock piling this much fertilizer even though their actions killed and injured many more people.

And basically leveled the town that was right there.

Two important things about this guy.

1-Thon meant no harm and malice, thon mistakenly blowed up the town.

2- Being at the epicenter of the explosion means there probably isn't any pieces large enough to identify left. Why talk about thon. The media in an unusual bout of being correct is focusing on the Corp who's just as at fault, perhaps more so for the lack of safety culture.
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Re:

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:37 pm

2dimes wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:
Woodruff wrote:It's funny that we know almost everything about the Boston bombers but so little about the person or persons responsible for not conducting inspections, skirting inspections and stock piling this much fertilizer even though their actions killed and injured many more people.

And basically leveled the town that was right there.

Two important things about this guy.

1-Thon meant no harm and malice, thon mistakenly blowed up the town.

2- Being at the epicenter of the explosion means there probably isn't any pieces large enough to identify left. Why talk about thon. The media in an unusual bout of being correct is focusing on the Corp who's just as at fault, perhaps more so for the lack of safety culture.


I'm pretty sure there's not just one individual culpable here. There had to have been several at the site who are, plus the individuals responsible for conducting the inspections.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:40 pm

Maybe but again, industrial culture is more about making sure you can't get blamed when the place goes up like a roman candle instead of preventing the event.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby oVo on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:48 pm

The Fertilizer Co-op in West, Texas has been at that location for sixty years and has had new ownership since 2006. It's only violation of record in the last decade is for stinking up the area which resulted in a fine for the odors and was quickly resolved. It's a farming community and the business has been located at that site long before there were any residences or schools in the vicinity.

I have not heard any reports of what the cause/source of the fire was that led to the massive explosion. The blast crater is 300 feet wide and 10 feet deep and may have eliminated any evidence of how the fire there started. A static electricity arc or someone smoking near the loading area would be extreme negligence.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Lootifer on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:53 pm

The thing is Ammonium Nitrate nor Gaseous Ammonia doesnt just blow up when you drop a little bit of ash on it (in fact Ammonium Nitrate is an oxidant, it wont combust without a fuel source). In each and every one of these cases its not simply a matter of one person making a dodgy decision.

Anyone who has worked on an industrial site will tell you that if that is the case then there would be daily explosions; people make dodgy safety decisions every day.

What will almost certainly have happened here (because its the one common theme in every industrial disaster) is a series of safety failures; there is only one entity to blame here: the business who owns the plant*.

* if it turns out that one single badly behaved person managed to line up every single failure; or the plant actually complied with every OSHA recommendation and/or regulation; then of course I would be ok with you levelling the blame on those entities BBS. Would you care to take a wager on this?
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Woodruff on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:38 pm

Lootifer wrote:The thing is Ammonium Nitrate nor Gaseous Ammonia doesnt just blow up when you drop a little bit of ash on it (in fact Ammonium Nitrate is an oxidant, it wont combust without a fuel source). In each and every one of these cases its not simply a matter of one person making a dodgy decision.

Anyone who has worked on an industrial site will tell you that if that is the case then there would be daily explosions; people make dodgy safety decisions every day.

What will almost certainly have happened here (because its the one common theme in every industrial disaster) is a series of safety failures; there is only one entity to blame here: the business who owns the plant*.

* if it turns out that one single badly behaved person managed to line up every single failure; or the plant actually complied with every OSHA recommendation and/or regulation; then of course I would be ok with you levelling the blame on those entities BBS. Would you care to take a wager on this?


As I understand it, the required state inspections did not take place. So if that is true, then the state agency is somewhat responsible, though not as much as the business itself certainly.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:11 pm

Lootifer wrote:The thing is Ammonium Nitrate nor Gaseous Ammonia doesnt just blow up when you drop a little bit of ash on it (in fact Ammonium Nitrate is an oxidant, it wont combust without a fuel source). In each and every one of these cases its not simply a matter of one person making a dodgy decision.

Anyone who has worked on an industrial site will tell you that if that is the case then there would be daily explosions; people make dodgy safety decisions every day.

What will almost certainly have happened here (because its the one common theme in every industrial disaster) is a series of safety failures; there is only one entity to blame here: the business who owns the plant*.

* if it turns out that one single badly behaved person managed to line up every single failure; or the plant actually complied with every OSHA recommendation and/or regulation; then of course I would be ok with you levelling the blame on those entities BBS. Would you care to take a wager on this?


The government agencies will always be to blame. Not only do they exclude potential competitors from providing similar services (fundamental problem A), they can also be incompetent at their job since (1) there's no threat of competition, (2) there's no threat of bankruptcy (money taken from taxpayers--not on a voluntary basis through profit), (3) state-mandated exemptions/privileges (e.g. becoming impervious to lawsuits--like the Army Corps of Engineers in New Orleans post-Katrina, or capping BP @ $80 billion or so in legal payments (I forget the technical term).

Those are fundamental issues, i.e. systemic issues, and they're the ones I'm concerned about--to be clear ITT.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:21 pm

None of those are true, you guys. BBS is talking out of his ass.

I actually work in a factory. All of our chemicals come from DuPont and AFCO labs, and they both have fierce competition, especially since the economic downturn. Yet these are companies with strong American roots and proprietary compounds, AND they're specialty chemical manufacturers. We're not talking fertilizer, we're talking "this Chlorine will target X pathogen best, this acid will leave a safe residue that protects food-grade stainless steel the best." In fact, we just switched to AFCO labs two years ago from another American source.
When it comes to the global market, other countries like Indonesia and Brazil are starting to push us out.

Every business that we sell to has their own inspectors that come through our facility. Wal*Mart has a global standardized safety evaluation, and they hire an impartial third party to carry out the inspections. OSHA will do a free safety inspection with no consequences for violations if you ask them to. The State Government will have their own inspectors as well. Plus there are several third party companies that you can hire to do safety checks. As we've all said before, when bad stuff like this happens it's a pretty safe bet that it was an internal problem.

The Army Core of Engineers is not a for-profit business, it's a public entity. They were not hired by New Orleans to build the levees. And apparently, according to your own link, the Army Core of Engineers has had "immunity" since 1928. Though I guess they were held responsible elsewhere. And while the Army Core of Engineers couldn't be sued for the deteriorated levees, the government it belongs to did appropriate $125 billion dollars for Katrina relief. Obama added something like another $2 billion, and smoothed out parts of the disbursement system. But a lot of that money is going to long-term rebuilding projects, and not to free blank checks.


If you want to talk about the new business practices of paying cheap fines or lawsuits instead of following the law, stealing worker benefits, and general business douchebagery, that's a different discussion than saying there's no competition for fertilizer, the government doesn't allow companies to be safe, and the Army Core of Engineers is a criminal organization. That's all just angry fantasy talk.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:43 pm

I'm glad you're still capable of inventing 'evidence' in order to fit your ideology. Crams in nicely, doesn't it, Phat_Bottom?
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Night Strike on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:56 pm

There was a fire at the plant before the explosion took place. The vessels containing the explosive compounds have regulator valves that are designed to release compound from the vessel in the event its pressure rises due to atmospheric heat. Those releases are what led to the odor citation the plant had previously received. The most likely scenario is that the regulators could not keep up with the rise in pressure caused by the fire, so the vessel exploded.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Lootifer on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:56 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:The government agencies will always be to blame. Not only do they exclude potential competitors from providing similar services (fundamental problem A), they can also be incompetent at their job since (1) there's no threat of competition, (2) there's no threat of bankruptcy (money taken from taxpayers--not on a voluntary basis through profit), (3) state-mandated exemptions/privileges (e.g. becoming impervious to lawsuits--like the Army Corps of Engineers in New Orleans post-Katrina, or capping BP @ $80 billion or so in legal payments (I forget the technical term).

Those are fundamental issues, i.e. systemic issues, and they're the ones I'm concerned about--to be clear ITT.

Systemically any standards entity (public or private) will bear some blame in a disaster (I didnt include it in my original post on blame because its a small and constant fraction of the blame - apologies for the ommission). So not sure what kind of point you are making by saying "government agencies" will always be to blame.

And sure sure you suffer from some inefficiencies due to lack of competition. But this is pretty small considering there is no real knowledge problem in the safety standards area. Safety technology/practices are A.) absolute (best practice can be explicitly defined and measured by not killing anyone), B.) is mostly technology agnostic and C.) where it is not technology agnostic it essentially leaches off other technologies/practices and therefore does not require competitive forces to work towards best practice at a detailed design level.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:12 am

Texan Business Advertisement wrote:Building a business is tough, but I hear that building a business in California is next to impossible. This is Texas governor Rick Perry, and I’ve got a message for California businesses. Come check out Texas. There are plenty of reasons Texas has been named the best state for doing business for eight years running. Visit TexasWideOpenForBusiness.Com, and see why our low taxes, sensible regulation, and fair legal system are just the thing to get your business moving … to Texas.


http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/04/29 ... on-videos/

lolololol
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:42 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Texan Business Advertisement wrote:Building a business is tough, but I hear that building a business in California is next to impossible. This is Texas governor Rick Perry, and I’ve got a message for California businesses. Come check out Texas. There are plenty of reasons Texas has been named the best state for doing business for eight years running. Visit TexasWideOpenForBusiness.Com, and see why our low taxes, sensible regulation, and fair legal system are just the thing to get your business moving … to Texas.


http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/04/29 ... on-videos/
lolololol


This is one of the very few things Perry has done that I don't have too much problem with, to be honest. He's just advertising for his state, and that's something he should be doing, to be honest.

I absolutely deplore some of his fiscal choices for his state, and some of the deregulation that has taken place there, but this isn't a big deal to me.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Night Strike on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:42 am

Woodruff wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
Texan Business Advertisement wrote:Building a business is tough, but I hear that building a business in California is next to impossible. This is Texas governor Rick Perry, and I’ve got a message for California businesses. Come check out Texas. There are plenty of reasons Texas has been named the best state for doing business for eight years running. Visit TexasWideOpenForBusiness.Com, and see why our low taxes, sensible regulation, and fair legal system are just the thing to get your business moving … to Texas.


http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/04/29 ... on-videos/
lolololol


This is one of the very few things Perry has done that I don't have too much problem with, to be honest. He's just advertising for his state, and that's something he should be doing, to be honest.

I absolutely deplore some of his fiscal choices for his state, and some of the deregulation that has taken place there, but this isn't a big deal to me.


*Waits for player to come by and denounce states competing against each other for businesses.*
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Symmetry on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:57 am

Plus his execution of an innocent man, and subsequent cover up.
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