Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:08 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.

At my plant we have yearly safety education meetings that last about 2 hours. People literally sleep through it. At the end, you're given a safety and regulation quiz, with the answers to the safety and regulation quiz. It's some real professional pencil-whipping.... so...
Next thing you know, we got one moron mixing 5 gallons of straight acid with 10 gallons of chlorine (deadly mustard gas) "to create a super-cleaner," and another turkey removing safety guards and sticking his whole goddamn hand into a giant scissors without locking out the power source. Guess what happened to his hand? At least with the mustard gas nobody got hurt, we just froze our asses off in the parking lot in January.

Now we're kicking off our new "safety awareness week."


wtf. I hope that moron mixing the shit was fired. I wonder how some people can be so fucking dense.

-TG
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:08 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.


If that's true, then it's not surprising given that OSHA has a monopoly on that trade.

I wonder if OSHA will be sued for any of this...


That's not true. OSHA doesn't have a monopoly on safety. They just set national federal guidelines and requirements. Each state has the authority to require more, and each company has the moral obligation to protect their employees. However, when safety starts costing a company more money than they think they could be held accountable for in an accident, they stop caring.
The deal is, every company should have multiple redundant safety procedures. But that costs money, and business is a competition to see who can make the most money. So that's why so many states get lax and don't do inspections. Also, Unions are great for enforcing safety guidelines, but they're on the wain.

Lootifer wrote:See to me thats fucked up.

I am one of the [relative] safety skeptics in my organisation. However here I am arguing on this side of the debate...

Safety should be the number 1 priority in any [industrial/risk facing] organisation.

I agree, but it's not. I'm on day 4 of our "safety week," with meeting every day, and it's been nothing but more pencil whipping. Each company has 'recordables' to send to OSHA, which is essentially anytime someone needs to go to the hospital. So long as we keep that under 5 FOR THE WHOLE YEAR, nobody cares.
We've had only one so far this year, and a second which was uhh... fixed in-house.

But as far as personal safety goes; that's nothing. You should see the food safety aspect for once in your life. You'll never eat again. Our lab techs used to take extra cultures and send them to another lab for private analysis. But then the economy took a hit and they stopped doing that. The state of Illinois still requires weekly cultures though, so the lab techs are instructed to only send the best ones. I mean, we find E.Coli all of the time, listeria sometimes too, and other terrible micro organisms... but there are operable limits to it. So long as we hang below a 10 on the 14 scale (if you understand) then we're still legal.
And then there's the other problem; in the US, the government doesn't require that a company provides sick days. So if you get sick working in a food production facility, you're still required to work. All of these companies put up a front. They say that they encourage workers to take time off if they are sick. But it's a lie.
If I get sick, with say.... the flu,... I have to have a doctors notice for any time that I take off. That's a $20 copay at least, plus it's unpaid time so I'm losing money each day that I take off. Also, the days count against you when you have your yearly employee review, and can be used to fire you. So, at least in the three factories that I've worked in, I've never seen anyone who isn't a manager take sick time. I am honestly quite certain that the lack of sick days gets millions of American sick each year. If my company produces 10,000 unites of peanut butter a day, and one of my workers is on the line with flu, that could be 10,000 units of flunut butter.

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:wtf. I hope that moron mixing the shit was fired. I wonder how some people can be so fucking dense.

-TG

No, they sent him to work with me for a while. :lol:
But sadly this stuff is pretty common. He's the third one to make mustard gas in the 4 years I've been at this plant. And yeah, he's pretty dumb, but I don't really blame him. What do you expect when you pay someone $2 above minimum wage and give them a shitty redundant job with no safety training? Some of these guys, myself included, are also forced to work absolutely ridiculous hours. For example, I was promised that I would work 8-5 Monday through Friday, with no weekends. But instead, now I work
Mond - Wedns 11am - 8 pm,
Thurs - Friday 7am - 3:30 pm,
Saturday first or third shift
And mine isn't as bad as other's, especially shipping & receiving. You can't adjust to any time shift, so you're always tired. You're tired, doing a redundant job for shitty pay. Sometimes it's like you're set-up for failure.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:35 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.


If that's true, then it's not surprising given that OSHA has a monopoly on that trade.

I wonder if OSHA will be sued for any of this...


That's not true. OSHA doesn't have a monopoly on safety. They just set national federal guidelines and requirements.


So, they got a monopoly on that trade.

Anyway, do you think the State should be held culpable for failing to enough inspections?
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:57 pm

You literally cannot have a monopoly on safety. It's impossible. Setting guidelines is not the same as enforcing safe practices.
And OSHA actually tells companies that they will not mother them, and that they will therefor be held accountable for any accidents.

Nobody should be held accountable till we know what happened.


Hypothetically speaking, if the company was following OSHA's gmp's, then it's OSHA who is to blame, along with anyone who might have noticed the unsafe practice and did nothing to end it.
But honestly, I really doubt that this was the case.
And if the company wasn't following OSHA's guidelines, then the business managers are to blame, along with anyone who might have noticed the unsafe practice and did nothing to end it.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:34 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:You literally cannot have a monopoly on safety. I


I didn't say that.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby notyou2 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:13 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.


If that's true, then it's not surprising given that OSHA has a monopoly on that trade.

I wonder if OSHA will be sued for any of this...


That's not true. OSHA doesn't have a monopoly on safety. They just set national federal guidelines and requirements.


So, they got a monopoly on that trade.

Anyway, do you think the State should be held culpable for failing to enough inspections?


Does the government have a monopoly on the judicial system?

I say let free enterprise take over the judicial system.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby ooge on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:15 pm

A state that brags about its ability to get rid of regulation,sadly not surprising to see this happens.A refinery in Texas will have a fire or blow up next.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:41 am

notyou2 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote::|
Last time it was inspected by OSHA was 1985.


If that's true, then it's not surprising given that OSHA has a monopoly on that trade.

I wonder if OSHA will be sued for any of this...


That's not true. OSHA doesn't have a monopoly on safety. They just set national federal guidelines and requirements.


So, they got a monopoly on that trade.

Anyway, do you think the State should be held culpable for failing to enough inspections?


Does the government have a monopoly on the judicial system?

I say let free enterprise take over the judicial system.


Yeah, it does---so far as the provision of courts, justices, and all that goes.

I'd be down for that.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:06 pm

It's funny that we know almost everything about the Boston bombers but so little about the person or persons responsible for not conducting inspections, skirting inspections and stock piling this much fertilizer even though their actions killed and injured many more people.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby muy_thaiguy on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:07 pm

Woodruff wrote:It's funny that we know almost everything about the Boston bombers but so little about the person or persons responsible for not conducting inspections, skirting inspections and stock piling this much fertilizer even though their actions killed and injured many more people.

And basically leveled the town that was right there.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:34 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
Woodruff wrote:It's funny that we know almost everything about the Boston bombers but so little about the person or persons responsible for not conducting inspections, skirting inspections and stock piling this much fertilizer even though their actions killed and injured many more people.

And basically leveled the town that was right there.

Two important things about this guy.

1-Thon meant no harm and malice, thon mistakenly blowed up the town.

2- Being at the epicenter of the explosion means there probably isn't any pieces large enough to identify left. Why talk about thon. The media in an unusual bout of being correct is focusing on the Corp who's just as at fault, perhaps more so for the lack of safety culture.
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Re:

Postby Woodruff on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:37 pm

2dimes wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:
Woodruff wrote:It's funny that we know almost everything about the Boston bombers but so little about the person or persons responsible for not conducting inspections, skirting inspections and stock piling this much fertilizer even though their actions killed and injured many more people.

And basically leveled the town that was right there.

Two important things about this guy.

1-Thon meant no harm and malice, thon mistakenly blowed up the town.

2- Being at the epicenter of the explosion means there probably isn't any pieces large enough to identify left. Why talk about thon. The media in an unusual bout of being correct is focusing on the Corp who's just as at fault, perhaps more so for the lack of safety culture.


I'm pretty sure there's not just one individual culpable here. There had to have been several at the site who are, plus the individuals responsible for conducting the inspections.
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Postby 2dimes on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:40 pm

Maybe but again, industrial culture is more about making sure you can't get blamed when the place goes up like a roman candle instead of preventing the event.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby oVo on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:48 pm

The Fertilizer Co-op in West, Texas has been at that location for sixty years and has had new ownership since 2006. It's only violation of record in the last decade is for stinking up the area which resulted in a fine for the odors and was quickly resolved. It's a farming community and the business has been located at that site long before there were any residences or schools in the vicinity.

I have not heard any reports of what the cause/source of the fire was that led to the massive explosion. The blast crater is 300 feet wide and 10 feet deep and may have eliminated any evidence of how the fire there started. A static electricity arc or someone smoking near the loading area would be extreme negligence.
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Re: Major explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco, Texas.

Postby Lootifer on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:53 pm

The thing is Ammonium Nitrate nor Gaseous Ammonia doesnt just blow up when you drop a little bit of ash on it (in fact Ammonium Nitrate is an oxidant, it wont combust without a fuel source). In each and every one of these cases its not simply a matter of one person making a dodgy decision.

Anyone who has worked on an industrial site will tell you that if that is the case then there would be daily explosions; people make dodgy safety decisions every day.

What will almost certainly have happened here (because its the one common theme in every industrial disaster) is a series of safety failures; there is only one entity to blame here: the business who owns the plant*.

* if it turns out that one single badly behaved person managed to line up every single failure; or the plant actually complied with every OSHA recommendation and/or regulation; then of course I would be ok with you levelling the blame on those entities BBS. Would you care to take a wager on this?
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