Israel v Native Americans in the US

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Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby chang50 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:20 pm

We hear a lot about Israel's claim to the lands they occupy now,a position that is maintained chiefly because of US backing.Is this claim any more legitimate or not than the claims Native Americans have to the lands that were taken from them by the US?
Does Israel have more claim to their present borders than the Apache does to parts of Texas,or does it boil down to might is right?
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:45 pm

I think we should give Britain back to the Celts.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby chang50 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:48 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:I think we should give Britain back to the Celts.


Can't see why that claim would be inferior to the Israeli one.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:08 pm

chang50 wrote:We hear a lot about Israel's claim to the lands they occupy now,a position that is maintained chiefly because of US backing.Is this claim any more legitimate or not than the claims Native Americans have to the lands that were taken from them by the US?
Does Israel have more claim to their present borders than the Apache does to parts of Texas,or does it boil down to might is right?

Neither is really "justified" in some sense, but both are too much done and over to change.

The part that makes Israel more of an issue today is that they are STILL trying to claim lands held by Palestinien people, both individually and as a proposed nation. Things done 100-200 years ago cannot be seen in the same light as things that have happened in the past 20 years.

Israel, as a whole is not going to go away. However, they have NO justification to claim all of Jerusalem or much of the lands they have enclosed in that wall, not to mention other lands they are laying claim to.

The fact that they were oppressed, the fact that the land was part of their religion is not justification for them to treat Palestiniens, as a whole far worse than Germany and Germans, who do frankly still bear a good deal of responsibility for what happened. What responsibility Germany has toward Israel, I am not sure. However, it is supremely ironic that it is not the country that actively strove to eliminate all Jews that is now being effectively eliminated, given too little territory to exist, rather the people that had the misfortune to have lived for centuries, even millenia on the land Jews considered "theirs" by religious right who are being labeled terrorists becuase they don't just hand over their land to Israel.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:09 pm

chang50 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:I think we should give Britain back to the Celts.


Can't see why that claim would be inferior to the Israeli one.

True, that.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:45 pm

...and the Caribbean back to the Caribs. Oh wait they're all dead.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby muy_thaiguy on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:55 pm

Istanbul back to the Greeks?
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Maugena on Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:18 am

chang50 wrote:[...]might is right?

Pretty much... ;/
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby chang50 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:15 am

jonesthecurl wrote:...and the Caribbean back to the Caribs. Oh wait they're all dead.


And the Arawaks,all gone within 1-2 generations after 1492,but we don't want to give the Israelis ideas do we?
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby crispybits on Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:22 am

jonesthecurl wrote:...and the Caribbean back to the Caribs. Oh wait they're all dead.


I hear that there's a lot of caribou around the world, maybe they're just displaced and we should get them all back to their motherland?
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby warmonger1981 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:23 am

Both are very complex issues. America screwed the Indians in numerous treaties. Israel is more of a religious issue. Israel only exists in part from European countries giving them land. Maybe we blame America and Europe. Not the Jews as they follow religion blindly. What I'm saying is blame the cause not the effects on which have been unleashed on humanity.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby jimboston on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:37 am

warmonger1981 wrote:Both are very complex issues. America screwed the Indians in numerous treaties. Israel is more of a religious issue. Israel only exists in part from European countries giving them land. Maybe we blame America and Europe. Not the Jews as they follow religion blindly. What I'm saying is blame the cause not the effects on which have been unleashed on humanity.


The (mainly) European settlers on "the New World" all screwed the natives.

The history of the conquest of this continent, and specifically the conquest of what is now the USA is essentially the largest case of genocide in the history of mankind. Granted much of the genocide was caused by virus' that were not understood... but a much was planned as well.

I don't believe you can overstate this in anyway... I don't believe it's overstating it to call it genocide.

That said, the current system of "Reservations" or Native American "Nations" that exist within this nation (i.e. the USA), is untenable. The system DOES NOT SERVE people of native american descent. The system perpetuates poverty and a system of "second-class-citizen" for those who live within it.

It's time to end the system and for people of native american descent to integrate.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby fadedpsychosis on Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:05 pm

*chuckle* ok, now I wish I HAD started this thread, but good job chang for picking up my slack...

personally I agree that the native americans totally got screwed over by the european immigrants from which the US descends, not to mention the US govt itself once they were formed (more so the latter really, as the colonists only "acquired" a rather small percentage of what was taken) and that genocide is indeed a good description of what happened (read about Chief Joseph: he was trying to get the hell out of the country, but they still chased him down and caged him and his people)...
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby keiths31 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:12 pm

jimboston wrote:
That said, the current system of "Reservations" or Native American "Nations" that exist within this nation (i.e. the USA), is untenable. The system DOES NOT SERVE people of native american descent. The system perpetuates poverty and a system of "second-class-citizen" for those who live within it.

It's time to end the system and for people of native american descent to integrate.


This part is very true. The reserve system that was negotiated back in the 1800s worked for the Native Canadians/Americans of the day because they still lived a 'traditional' lifestyle Today not so much. Remote fly-in reserves don't promote the 'traditional' way of life as so much they keep the citizens locked in a vicious cycle of poverty and abuse. Since they don't rely on trapping and hunting anymore, but are supported by the government, there is no sense of self worth in many communities. There is no reason for their community to actually be, except for their history.

We have a First Nations community within our city limits. It is a thriving community with many commercial enterprises, industrial business, and a good economic relationship with the city. This community isn't common though as most First Nation communities are located far from cities, with many being fly-in or winter road accessible only. This is unfair to the residents of these communities as they cannot get a job or attend school without being apart from their families.

There is a huge problem with First Nation communities, but throwing more money (which seems to be the answer they want and the solution the government continues to promote) isn't the answer. First Nations people cannot be satisfied with being a welfare of the state and the federal/provincial/state governments can't keep putting dollar sign band-aids on the problem.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Woodruff on Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:45 pm

jimboston wrote:That said, the current system of "Reservations" or Native American "Nations" that exist within this nation (i.e. the USA), is untenable. The system DOES NOT SERVE people of native american descent. The system perpetuates poverty and a system of "second-class-citizen" for those who live within it.
It's time to end the system and for people of native american descent to integrate.


I grew up on a reservation in Nebraska (but within a town that had very few American Indians, interestingly enough). I agree with everything you've said here. Unfortunately, the greatest outcry against this will be from those Native Americans, I believe.
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