Ray Rider wrote:
chang50 wrote:We hear a lot about Israel's claim to the lands they occupy now,a position that is maintained chiefly because of US backing.Is this claim any more legitimate or not than the claims Native Americans have to the lands that were taken from them by the US?
Does Israel have more claim to their present borders than the Apache does to parts of Texas,or does it boil down to might is right?
I think I should bring out the old timeline again...A Partial Chronology of Judah-Cum-Palestine70 -- The Romans conquer Jerusalem.
132-136 Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty.
351 -- Jewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395 -- Palestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438 -- Empress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614 -- Persian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628 – Palestine reconquered by the Byzantines.
633-637 – Arab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639 – Muawiyah Arab governor.
660 – Muawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
750 – Last Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persiah, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878 -- Ahmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor ofEgypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904 – The Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906 – Inroads of the Carmathians
934 – The Egyptian Ikhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969 – The Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971 – War with the Carmathians.
970-976 – Byzantine invasion.
1070-1080 – Seljuk Turks conquer Palestine.
1099 – The Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187 – Saladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244 – The Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem’s population is slaughter, the city is sacked.
1260 – Mongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291 – End of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303 Mongol invasion.
1516-1517 – The Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799 – Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831 – Ibrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt’s Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840 – Ibrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840 on – English writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882 – First Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909 – Foundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918 – Allies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918 – Balfour Declaration granting “Jewish Homeland” Internationally approved.
1920 – British (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration.
1922 – Palestine Mandate; Jewish National Home confirmed.
1923 – Palestine Mandate comes into operation.
1923 – Seventy-five percent of Palestine is set aside as an independent Arab “Palestinian” state, Transjordan.
1925 – Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened.
1929 – Arab revolt.
1936-1939 – Arab revolt and civil war.
1946 – Establishment of Arab state of Transjordan.
1948 – End of Mandate for Palestine; establishment of State of Israel; Arab-Jewish war.
1948 -- Eastern Palestine—Transjordan—occupies the West Bank area of Western Palestine, becomes “Jordan,” constituting over eighty percent of Palestine.
*Compiled from data of Hogarth, Hitti, Leish, Frankenstein, Katz, Guillaume, Parkes, Ben-Sasson, Anglo-American Survey (1946), pp.1-86, particularly pp. 1, 4, 5, 13, 14.
So who rightfully owns the land? At what point in history do you believe we should revert back to? I think we can go to almost any region of the world and find a similar story. Here in North America we could trace it back to the British, French, and a few other smaller colonizing nations who fought with each other over the land; and before them, the numerous native tribes which fought with each other for the land. In my area of Canada, the people group now known as the Inuit were some of the earliest inhabitants; the Dene drove them north, then the Blackfoot drove the Dene East, then the Cree drove the Blackfoot out. Should we give all this land back to the Inuit? If we start giving large tracts of land back to previous tribes/nations/people groups, how far back should we go? I say the only option is to leave the borders where they currently are and work out our differences like the civilized nations we all claim to be.
lol... Even by the above timeline, there is no justification for everyone who happens to be Jewish or of Jewish descent (no matter their ethnicity or other tie to that land) to take over Palestinien lands, yet they did. THAT is the question.
And, you certainly missed several details.
Also among the missed details is the fact that the British did not truly conquer the lands they claimed, and the legality of the Balfour declaration is highly, highly suspect, but a lot of nations found it convenient to go back to it post holocaust. Another missed fact is that before the land boundaries were actually finalized, there was a time of migration. At the end, the areas that became Israel had barely 50-51% Jews and the reast Palesiniens, and the areas that became Palestine had an over 98% Palesinien, non Jewish presence.
Finally, Just because Jordan exists doesn't mean that somehow justifies Israel expanding and taking lands from Palestiniens that they have held for centurie. Also note that Israel has, for a very long time even dismissed the idea that there is any ethnic group called "Palesiniens" -- just declaring them "Arabs", with no ethnic rights or distinctions (and gee.. isn't that a cute way of pretending one is not committing genecide.. just deny the people being condemned truly are another people
). Further note that the ONLY proof that Israeli courts have generally accepted as proof of ownership and continued occupation is an Israeli land title -- even in those lands that are merely supposed to be occupied by Israel.
Oh, yeah, and even give that the "war" was caused by Palestiniens, it still does not explain Israel's complete and utter disdain for many Geneva and international conventions regarding treatment of conquered nations. Funny. Germany comes close to exterminating the Jews, and gets a pass. Palestine has the mere misfortune to be on land the Jews want and they get to be terrorists. If Israel had treated the Palestiniens even half as decently as the world treated Germany post WWII, then its highly, highly doubtful you would now have 2 generations of kids seeing little option but terrorism and disdain for Israel.