Israel v Native Americans in the US

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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:24 pm

Woodruff wrote:
jimboston wrote:That said, the current system of "Reservations" or Native American "Nations" that exist within this nation (i.e. the USA), is untenable. The system DOES NOT SERVE people of native american descent. The system perpetuates poverty and a system of "second-class-citizen" for those who live within it.
It's time to end the system and for people of native american descent to integrate.


I grew up on a reservation in Nebraska (but within a town that had very few American Indians, interestingly enough). I agree with everything you've said here. Unfortunately, the greatest outcry against this will be from those Native Americans, I believe.

True, though ironically enough, casinos have now changed the dynamics quite a bit, as did some of the land sales, transfer of property to native corporations in Alaska.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Ray Rider on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:54 pm

chang50 wrote:We hear a lot about Israel's claim to the lands they occupy now,a position that is maintained chiefly because of US backing.Is this claim any more legitimate or not than the claims Native Americans have to the lands that were taken from them by the US?
Does Israel have more claim to their present borders than the Apache does to parts of Texas,or does it boil down to might is right?

I think I should bring out the old timeline again...

A Partial Chronology of Judah-Cum-Palestine
70 -- The Romans conquer Jerusalem.
132-136 Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty.
351 -- Jewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395 -- Palestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438 -- Empress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614 -- Persian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628 – Palestine reconquered by the Byzantines.
633-637 – Arab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639 – Muawiyah Arab governor.
660 – Muawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
750 – Last Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persiah, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878 -- Ahmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor ofEgypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904 – The Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906 – Inroads of the Carmathians
934 – The Egyptian Ikhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969 – The Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971 – War with the Carmathians.
970-976 – Byzantine invasion.
1070-1080 – Seljuk Turks conquer Palestine.
1099 – The Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187 – Saladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244 – The Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem’s population is slaughter, the city is sacked.
1260 – Mongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291 – End of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303 Mongol invasion.
1516-1517 – The Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799 – Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831 – Ibrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt’s Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840 – Ibrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840 on – English writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882 – First Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909 – Foundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918 – Allies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918 – Balfour Declaration granting “Jewish Homeland” Internationally approved.
1920 – British (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration.
1922 – Palestine Mandate; Jewish National Home confirmed.
1923 – Palestine Mandate comes into operation.
1923 – Seventy-five percent of Palestine is set aside as an independent Arab “Palestinian” state, Transjordan.
1925 – Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened.
1929 – Arab revolt.
1936-1939 – Arab revolt and civil war.
1946 – Establishment of Arab state of Transjordan.
1948 – End of Mandate for Palestine; establishment of State of Israel; Arab-Jewish war.
1948 -- Eastern Palestine—Transjordan—occupies the West Bank area of Western Palestine, becomes “Jordan,” constituting over eighty percent of Palestine.

*Compiled from data of Hogarth, Hitti, Leish, Frankenstein, Katz, Guillaume, Parkes, Ben-Sasson, Anglo-American Survey (1946), pp.1-86, particularly pp. 1, 4, 5, 13, 14.

So who rightfully owns the land? At what point in history do you believe we should revert back to? I think we can go to almost any region of the world and find a similar story. Here in North America we could trace it back to the British, French, and a few other smaller colonizing nations who fought with each other over the land; and before them, the numerous native tribes which fought with each other for the land. In my area of Canada, the people group now known as the Inuit were some of the earliest inhabitants; the Dene drove them north, then the Blackfoot drove the Dene East, then the Cree drove the Blackfoot out. Should we give all this land back to the Inuit? If we start giving large tracts of land back to previous tribes/nations/people groups, how far back should we go? I say the only option is to leave the borders where they currently are and work out our differences like the civilized nations we all claim to be.
Last edited by Ray Rider on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:58 pm

Give Eden back to the humans.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Ray Rider on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:59 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:Give Eden back to the humans.

lol
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:59 pm

Give Gondwanaland back to the reptiles.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby chang50 on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:06 am

Ray Rider wrote:
chang50 wrote:We hear a lot about Israel's claim to the lands they occupy now,a position that is maintained chiefly because of US backing.Is this claim any more legitimate or not than the claims Native Americans have to the lands that were taken from them by the US?
Does Israel have more claim to their present borders than the Apache does to parts of Texas,or does it boil down to might is right?

I think I should bring out the old timeline again...

A Partial Chronology of Judah-Cum-Palestine
70 -- The Romans conquer Jerusalem.
132-136 Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty.
351 -- Jewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395 -- Palestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438 -- Empress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614 -- Persian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628 – Palestine reconquered by the Byzantines.
633-637 – Arab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639 – Muawiyah Arab governor.
660 – Muawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
750 – Last Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persiah, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878 -- Ahmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor ofEgypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904 – The Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906 – Inroads of the Carmathians
934 – The Egyptian Ikhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969 – The Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971 – War with the Carmathians.
970-976 – Byzantine invasion.
1070-1080 – Seljuk Turks conquer Palestine.
1099 – The Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187 – Saladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244 – The Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem’s population is slaughter, the city is sacked.
1260 – Mongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291 – End of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303 Mongol invasion.
1516-1517 – The Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799 – Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831 – Ibrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt’s Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840 – Ibrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840 on – English writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882 – First Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909 – Foundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918 – Allies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918 – Balfour Declaration granting “Jewish Homeland” Internationally approved.
1920 – British (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration.
1922 – Palestine Mandate; Jewish National Home confirmed.
1923 – Palestine Mandate comes into operation.
1923 – Seventy-five percent of Palestine is set aside as an independent Arab “Palestinian” state, Transjordan.
1925 – Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened.
1929 – Arab revolt.
1936-1939 – Arab revolt and civil war.
1946 – Establishment of Arab state of Transjordan.
1948 – End of Mandate for Palestine; establishment of State of Israel; Arab-Jewish war.
1948 -- Eastern Palestine—Transjordan—occupies the West Bank area of Western Palestine, becomes “Jordan,” constituting over eighty percent of Palestine.

*Compiled from data of Hogarth, Hitti, Leish, Frankenstein, Katz, Guillaume, Parkes, Ben-Sasson, Anglo-American Survey (1946), pp.1-86, particularly pp. 1, 4, 5, 13, 14.

So who rightfully owns the land? At what point in history do you believe we should revert back to? I think we can go to almost any region of the world and find a similar story. Here in North America we could trace it back to the British, French, and a few other smaller colonizing nations who fought with each other over the land; and before them, the numerous native tribes which fought with each other for the land. In my area of Canada, the people group now known as the Inuit were some of the earliest inhabitants; the Dene drove them north, then the Blackfoot drove the Dene East, then the Cree drove the Blackfoot out. Should we give all this land back to the Inuit? If we start giving large tracts of land back to previous tribes/nations/people groups, how far back should we go? I say the only option is to leave the borders where they currently are and work out our differences like the civilized nations we all claim to be.


There ain't any easy answers ,I was just trying to illustrate the paradox,maybe hypocrisy,of the US effectively guaranteeing Israel's existence as a sovereign nation whilst doing sweet FA in comparison for the descendants of the victims of a holocaust on their doostop.Some might say the holocaust contiues when you examine life on some of the reservations.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Ray Rider on Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:03 am

chang50 wrote: There ain't any easy answers ,I was just trying to illustrate the paradox,maybe hypocrisy,of the US effectively guaranteeing Israel's existence as a sovereign nation whilst doing sweet FA in comparison for the descendants of the victims of a holocaust on their doostop.Some might say the holocaust contiues when you examine life on some of the reservations.

The history of the Eurpoean expansion into Native lands and their subsequent treatment of the Native peoples was brutal and shameful. Rez life ain't easy and there is much that requires change; I was born and lived on a reserve so I know first hand. But anyone who would claim a similarity between current rez life and slave labor camps, mass shootings, and wholesale extermination of millions in gas chambers is staggeringly ignorant.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby fadedpsychosis on Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:09 am

Ray Rider wrote:
chang50 wrote: There ain't any easy answers ,I was just trying to illustrate the paradox,maybe hypocrisy,of the US effectively guaranteeing Israel's existence as a sovereign nation whilst doing sweet FA in comparison for the descendants of the victims of a holocaust on their doostop.Some might say the holocaust contiues when you examine life on some of the reservations.

The history of the Eurpoean expansion into Native lands and their subsequent treatment of the Native peoples was brutal and shameful. Rez life ain't easy and there is much that requires change; I was born and lived on a reserve so I know first hand. But anyone who would claim a similarity between current rez life and slave labor camps, mass shootings, and wholesale extermination of millions in gas chambers is staggeringly ignorant.

I wouldn't claim current conditions = holocaust, but past conditions certainly did...
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:23 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
chang50 wrote:We hear a lot about Israel's claim to the lands they occupy now,a position that is maintained chiefly because of US backing.Is this claim any more legitimate or not than the claims Native Americans have to the lands that were taken from them by the US?
Does Israel have more claim to their present borders than the Apache does to parts of Texas,or does it boil down to might is right?

I think I should bring out the old timeline again...

A Partial Chronology of Judah-Cum-Palestine
70 -- The Romans conquer Jerusalem.
132-136 Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty.
351 -- Jewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395 -- Palestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438 -- Empress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614 -- Persian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628 – Palestine reconquered by the Byzantines.
633-637 – Arab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639 – Muawiyah Arab governor.
660 – Muawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
750 – Last Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persiah, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878 -- Ahmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor ofEgypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904 – The Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906 – Inroads of the Carmathians
934 – The Egyptian Ikhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969 – The Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971 – War with the Carmathians.
970-976 – Byzantine invasion.
1070-1080 – Seljuk Turks conquer Palestine.
1099 – The Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187 – Saladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244 – The Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem’s population is slaughter, the city is sacked.
1260 – Mongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291 – End of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303 Mongol invasion.
1516-1517 – The Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799 – Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831 – Ibrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt’s Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840 – Ibrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840 on – English writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882 – First Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909 – Foundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918 – Allies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918 – Balfour Declaration granting “Jewish Homeland” Internationally approved.
1920 – British (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration.
1922 – Palestine Mandate; Jewish National Home confirmed.
1923 – Palestine Mandate comes into operation.
1923 – Seventy-five percent of Palestine is set aside as an independent Arab “Palestinian” state, Transjordan.
1925 – Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened.
1929 – Arab revolt.
1936-1939 – Arab revolt and civil war.
1946 – Establishment of Arab state of Transjordan.
1948 – End of Mandate for Palestine; establishment of State of Israel; Arab-Jewish war.
1948 -- Eastern Palestine—Transjordan—occupies the West Bank area of Western Palestine, becomes “Jordan,” constituting over eighty percent of Palestine.

*Compiled from data of Hogarth, Hitti, Leish, Frankenstein, Katz, Guillaume, Parkes, Ben-Sasson, Anglo-American Survey (1946), pp.1-86, particularly pp. 1, 4, 5, 13, 14.

So who rightfully owns the land? At what point in history do you believe we should revert back to? I think we can go to almost any region of the world and find a similar story. Here in North America we could trace it back to the British, French, and a few other smaller colonizing nations who fought with each other over the land; and before them, the numerous native tribes which fought with each other for the land. In my area of Canada, the people group now known as the Inuit were some of the earliest inhabitants; the Dene drove them north, then the Blackfoot drove the Dene East, then the Cree drove the Blackfoot out. Should we give all this land back to the Inuit? If we start giving large tracts of land back to previous tribes/nations/people groups, how far back should we go? I say the only option is to leave the borders where they currently are and work out our differences like the civilized nations we all claim to be.

lol... Even by the above timeline, there is no justification for everyone who happens to be Jewish or of Jewish descent (no matter their ethnicity or other tie to that land) to take over Palestinien lands, yet they did. THAT is the question.

And, you certainly missed several details.

Also among the missed details is the fact that the British did not truly conquer the lands they claimed, and the legality of the Balfour declaration is highly, highly suspect, but a lot of nations found it convenient to go back to it post holocaust. Another missed fact is that before the land boundaries were actually finalized, there was a time of migration. At the end, the areas that became Israel had barely 50-51% Jews and the reast Palesiniens, and the areas that became Palestine had an over 98% Palesinien, non Jewish presence.

Finally, Just because Jordan exists doesn't mean that somehow justifies Israel expanding and taking lands from Palestiniens that they have held for centurie. Also note that Israel has, for a very long time even dismissed the idea that there is any ethnic group called "Palesiniens" -- just declaring them "Arabs", with no ethnic rights or distinctions (and gee.. isn't that a cute way of pretending one is not committing genecide.. just deny the people being condemned truly are another people :roll: ). Further note that the ONLY proof that Israeli courts have generally accepted as proof of ownership and continued occupation is an Israeli land title -- even in those lands that are merely supposed to be occupied by Israel.

Oh, yeah, and even give that the "war" was caused by Palestiniens, it still does not explain Israel's complete and utter disdain for many Geneva and international conventions regarding treatment of conquered nations. Funny. Germany comes close to exterminating the Jews, and gets a pass. Palestine has the mere misfortune to be on land the Jews want and they get to be terrorists. If Israel had treated the Palestiniens even half as decently as the world treated Germany post WWII, then its highly, highly doubtful you would now have 2 generations of kids seeing little option but terrorism and disdain for Israel.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:30 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
chang50 wrote: There ain't any easy answers ,I was just trying to illustrate the paradox,maybe hypocrisy,of the US effectively guaranteeing Israel's existence as a sovereign nation whilst doing sweet FA in comparison for the descendants of the victims of a holocaust on their doostop.Some might say the holocaust contiues when you examine life on some of the reservations.

The history of the Eurpoean expansion into Native lands and their subsequent treatment of the Native peoples was brutal and shameful. Rez life ain't easy and there is much that requires change; I was born and lived on a reserve so I know first hand. But anyone who would claim a similarity between current rez life and slave labor camps, mass shootings, and wholesale extermination of millions in gas chambers is staggeringly ignorant.

I think the point is that neither Native Americans nor Palestiniens have been treated well. Some very poor treatment of Native Americans, including adopting out of Native kids, harsh boarding schools, lands seized with impunity and systematically denying tribes the ability to create industry or have anything other than a supposed "traditional" life and dependence very much extended into modern times. Its not as direct and henious as trains to gas chambers, but essentially had the same impact.

The difference is that while US conditions have improved, partly because of actions by various Native American tribes (with situations too diverse to get into specifically) and things like casinos have as much to do with the changes as any change in US law or attitudes (at least initially, though one feeds the other), the way Israel has treated Palestiniens has worsened, to the point of repugnance.

And, while Israel is not constructing gas chambers, they did kill over 750 civilians on the pretense of defending themselves against a few rockets from militants.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:47 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:I think we should give Britain back to the Celts.
Nope, unless I'm mistaken, they were usurpers too. We'd have to search the hills of Wales for relatively pure descendants of the Bretons who were the first we know of. John Rhys-Davies and Catherine Zeta-Jones for king and queen!
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:57 pm

chang50 wrote:We hear a lot about Israel's claim to the lands they occupy now,a position that is maintained chiefly because of US backing.Is this claim any more legitimate or not than the claims Native Americans have to the lands that were taken from them by the US?
Does Israel have more claim to their present borders than the Apache does to parts of Texas,or does it boil down to might is right?




Throughout history, the winner gets the spoils. The losers of wars and battles do not, and I doubt that will ever change.

Israel has more claim based on ability to uphold and maintain alone.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:05 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:I think we should give Britain back to the Celts.
Nope, unless I'm mistaken, they were usurpers too. We'd have to search the hills of Wales for relatively pure descendants of the Bretons who were the first we know of. John Rhys-Davies and Catherine Zeta-Jones for king and queen!
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I think you'll find that they are Welsh and therefore celts.
Inb$ someone "fixes" that comment to another c-word.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:23 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
chang50 wrote:We hear a lot about Israel's claim to the lands they occupy now,a position that is maintained chiefly because of US backing.Is this claim any more legitimate or not than the claims Native Americans have to the lands that were taken from them by the US?
Does Israel have more claim to their present borders than the Apache does to parts of Texas,or does it boil down to might is right?




Throughout history, the winner gets the spoils. The losers of wars and battles do not, and I doubt that will ever change.

Israel has more claim based on ability to uphold and maintain alone.

BULL.

Israel did not survive on its own. If the US and much of Europe had not supported and sustained Israel, it would not have done anywhere near as well. If Europe and the United States had not felt guilt, and if the impacted people had not been "brown people in robes", then its highly unlikely Israeli actions would have gone unnoticed and uncorrected.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:40 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:I think we should give Britain back to the Celts.
Nope, unless I'm mistaken, they were usurpers too. We'd have to search the hills of Wales for relatively pure descendants of the Bretons who were the first we know of. John Rhys-Davies and Catherine Zeta-Jones for king and queen!
ImageImage


I think you'll find that they are Welsh and therefore celts.
Inb$ someone "fixes" that comment to another c-word.
No, as I understand it the Celts were the ancestors of the Irish and Scots. The ancesters of the Welsh were "Bretons" and pre-dated the Celts. Maybe as a yank talking to a Brit I'm making a fool of myself and talking through my (three-cornered) hat, but I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.
The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer to the real question.
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