Israel v Native Americans in the US

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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:28 am

oVo wrote:BBS, you left out violence, lawlessness and brute force.


You can file those under:

"illegitimate title transfers" (Since violence and brute force involve coercion.)

Not sure if lawlessness matters with my argument. The rule of legitimate v. illegitimate title transfer is pretty clear.
(Of course, between a government and some governing group (tribe) the law doesn't matter too much if one can simply kill the other with no repercussions from some 3rd party.) I'm talking about 1v1 or group v. group transfers on property.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:33 am

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:That's a good post Keith. Just innocently curious though, is that what it all comes down to? who was there longest, or who was there first?


It's about legitimacy. With land, there are legitimate title transfers (voluntary exchange), and there are illegitimate title transfers (those involving fraud and/or coercion--involuntary exchange).


on a national scale? Cuz it sounds like you are describing property in real estate terms. Like, what would a good example be for the Acheans vs. the Trojans? Like, what about before the time when language was invented to be even able to record or recognize a transfer of any kind


If a tribe lays claim to X-amount of land, and some other organization (whether it's a national government, the IDF, the Hagunah, whatever) comes in and takes that land, then clearly that's an illegitimate title transfer. It's a violation of property rights. Pretty hard to refute that.

"or the Acheans vs. the Trojans?"


Well, ask yourself, "who owned what?" and "was the exchange voluntary or involuntary?" and go from there.

"language before time"

lolwut. There's property rights of persons, which hardly ever involved legitimate title transfers of ownership cuz it was slavery (which is an illegitimate title transfer).
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:07 am

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The difference is that while US conditions have improved, partly because of actions by various Native American tribes (with situations too diverse to get into specifically) and things like casinos have as much to do with the changes as any change in US law or attitudes


Having lived on a reservation that has a casino (Winnevegas), I would argue that the appearance of "Indian casinos" has actually been a DETRIMENT to Native Americans at large, not a positive.


I would agree that almost any other business would have been better, but my point is really that the casinos have done far more than the government "stewardship" for the tribes.


No, I think you misunderstand. In most cases (not all, certainly), the casinos do not benefit the majority of the Native Americans in any way at all and, in fact, provide precisely the wrong view of how to conduct oneself to reach success.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Anyway, the casino there is providing nice houses, college educations and a good deal of local employment.


Casino employment is better than no job, but it is truly akin to working at any other minimum-wage job. In other words, it is NOT going to drag anyone into a good life.

I don't disagree, my statement is more a reflection of how poorly some tribes have been treated in the past than a true endorsement of casinos. That said, when it has moved people forward, its not so much through direct employment as from a sharing of proceeds, but not all tribes have done that well or at all equally, and certainly not with other tribes.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby keiths31 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:33 am

Phatscotty wrote:That's a good post Keith. Just innocently curious though, is that what it all comes down to? who was there longest, or who was there first?


It is quite complicated in all honesty. First Nations land claims are far from settled in Canada. For the most part treaties were signed with the First Nation communities that occupied the lands when they were negotiated.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:53 pm

Give the beach back to the lungfish.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Lootifer on Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:31 pm

jimboston wrote:That said, the current system of "Reservations" or Native American "Nations" that exist within this nation (i.e. the USA), is untenable. The system DOES NOT SERVE people of native american descent. The system perpetuates poverty and a system of "second-class-citizen" for those who live within it.

Interesting, and without knowing all that much I agree.

It's time to end the system and for people of native american descent to integrate.

Hah, that same little attitude was exactly what caused the aforementioned genocide.

The most morally/ethically correct solution, from my point of view, is to work with the Native American culture and treat them as they want to be treated (as according to their culture). Now obviously this is easier said than done as the leaders are not always accurate representatives of either the culture or the wider population so you need to invest a lot of time, money and effort if you want to get a morally superior outcome - naturally this is usually politically untenable, especially compared to the ease of simple forced integration...

Bear in mind I am speaking from a country that, while has terrible history and relations with the indigenous population, does have one of the better track records compared to other countries. Maori culture is very prominant in our society and we largely embrace it (not to say we dont have our fair share of racism etc.).
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:32 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:Give the beach back to the lungfish.


That's just crazy talk.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:12 pm

Lootifer wrote: .

The most morally/ethically correct solution, from my point of view, is to work with the Native American culture and treat them as they want to be treated (as according to their culture). Now obviously this is easier said than done as the leaders are not always accurate representatives of either the culture or the wider population so you need to invest a lot of time, money and effort if you want to get a morally superior outcome - naturally this is usually politically untenable, especially compared to the ease of simple forced integration...

I fully agree, but therein lies the crux of just one problem. See, Native Americans are hardly unified on what constitutes the best moves.

Some have endorsed casinos, as an example. In many cases that has wound up a very bitter pill, bringing wealth to a few and making a travesty of any real cultural movements. Many want nothing more than to just "have what everyone else has", but more and more on many reservations see merely "becoming white" as more than just destroying their culture and turning their backs on their elders, but as giving up something extremely valuable that our current society needs. Although only a few truly want to go back and "live like the elders", a good many want to regain at least some of the major values, which are not necessarily at all the same as so-called "western" values.

On the other side, a lot of non Native American people who want to "be Indian" [fill in whatever tribe or just say Native American], falsely ideoloze and romanticize the lifestyle and values. NO culture stays the same, ever.

When you talk about the Native Americans (or natives of other areas, I am sure), you refer to a number of very diverse and not at all compatible ideas, values and beliefs. Many cultures are, of course already just gone.. with no members left, and perhaps not even real archeological evidence.

In other words, the problem is not even just what the political powers that be might want, its also even defining what each tribe, what each section of tribe, might want. And while I am a believer in the idea that all cultures bring some good, I am not sure even that all Native American cultures really should be equally endorsed. Its a complex mix. On the one hand, everyone has the right to their culture, but do we really want and need (just as an example) some of the more antagonistic values perpetuated more? I don't feel fit to judge, think that is something each society must judge. Yet, ignoring that is part of what I mean by folks who romanticize the Native American lifestyles.

And, then we have issues of resource allocation. In many cases, it is less culture and more about resources that cause the conflict.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby jimboston on Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:42 pm

Lootifer wrote:
jimboston wrote:That said, the current system of "Reservations" or Native American "Nations" that exist within this nation (i.e. the USA), is untenable. The system DOES NOT SERVE people of native american descent. The system perpetuates poverty and a system of "second-class-citizen" for those who live within it.

Interesting, and without knowing all that much I agree.

It's time to end the system and for people of native american descent to integrate.

Hah, that same little attitude was exactly what caused the aforementioned genocide.

The most morally/ethically correct solution, from my point of view, is to work with the Native American culture and treat them as they want to be treated (as according to their culture). Now obviously this is easier said than done as the leaders are not always accurate representatives of either the culture or the wider population so you need to invest a lot of time, money and effort if you want to get a morally superior outcome - naturally this is usually politically untenable, especially compared to the ease of simple forced integration...

Bear in mind I am speaking from a country that, while has terrible history and relations with the indigenous population, does have one of the better track records compared to other countries. Maori culture is very prominant in our society and we largely embrace it (not to say we dont have our fair share of racism etc.).


They can keep their culture... just like ever other ethnicity that integrates.

The continuation of the Reservation System is what needs to stop.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Lootifer on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:39 pm

Haha, yes, because American culture is widely known for its ability to play well with others...
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby muy_thaiguy on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:42 am

Lootifer wrote:Haha, yes, because American culture is widely known for its ability to play well with others...

We do! Instead of a ball, we like to toss unpinned hand grenades! Instead of water guns, we use assault rifles! And most generous of all, even if we get mad, we don't take our ball and go home, we supersize the grenade, multiply it by the thousands, and drop it from stealth bombers! We share the wealth!
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Woodruff on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:52 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Haha, yes, because American culture is widely known for its ability to play well with others...

We do! Instead of a ball, we like to toss unpinned hand grenades! Instead of water guns, we use assault rifles! And most generous of all, even if we get mad, we don't take our ball and go home, we supersize the grenade, multiply it by the thousands, and drop it from stealth bombers! We share the wealth!


We're liberating the hell out of those people.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Lootifer on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:38 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Haha, yes, because American culture is widely known for its ability to play well with others...

We do! Instead of a ball, we like to toss unpinned hand grenades! Instead of water guns, we use assault rifles! And most generous of all, even if we get mad, we don't take our ball and go home, we supersize the grenade, multiply it by the thousands, and drop it from stealth bombers! We share the wealth!

In all honesty i sometimes think i'd prefer a handgrenade being lobbed through my window on a saturday afternoon, compared to what I currently have to put up with from our 'Merican [cultural] overlords: Keeping up with the Kardashians Marathon.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:11 pm

jimboston wrote:
They can keep their culture... just like ever other ethnicity that integrates.

Except every other ethnicity, with the exception of blacks brought as slaves has had a choice. Even some ex slaves had a choice, to a point, in Libya. Native Americans have no other place to go and, in many cases, have a culture that is very much tied to a specific section of land.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Gillipig on Thu May 02, 2013 9:20 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:Istanbul back to the Greeks?

Not just Istanbul, basically all the good fertile regions in Turkey have been settled by Greeks for thousands of years before the Turks took it.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 02, 2013 9:24 am

Gillipig wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:Istanbul back to the Greeks?

Not just Istanbul, basically all the good fertile regions in Turkey have been settled by Greeks for thousands of years before the Turks took it.


What about the Macedonians? Where's their fair share?
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Gillipig on Thu May 02, 2013 9:31 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:Istanbul back to the Greeks?

Not just Istanbul, basically all the good fertile regions in Turkey have been settled by Greeks for thousands of years before the Turks took it.


What about the Macedonians? Where's their fair share?

The Greeks predates the Macedonians, Macedonia is old Greek territory. So they get nothing, not even the area they have today.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby muy_thaiguy on Thu May 02, 2013 10:13 am

Russia back to the Princes of Novgorod?
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Gillipig on Thu May 02, 2013 10:42 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:Russia back to the Princes of Novgorod?

Back to Sweden actually. The first king of Rus was "Rurik", a Swedish viking who settled in the area and created the first kingdom in Russia. The Grand Prince's of Novgorod, Ryazan, Galich etc were all descendants of him.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby muy_thaiguy on Thu May 02, 2013 10:51 am

Gillipig wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:Russia back to the Princes of Novgorod?

Back to Sweden actually. The first king of Rus was "Rurik", a Swedish viking who settled in the area and created the first kingdom in Russia. The Grand Prince's of Novgorod, Ryazan, Galich etc were all descendants of him.

In other words, turn it back into a monarchy then.

Mexico City back to the Aztecs?
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby chang50 on Thu May 02, 2013 11:12 am

Earth back to the dinosaurs?
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 02, 2013 11:18 am

Gillipig wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:Russia back to the Princes of Novgorod?

Back to Sweden actually. The first king of Rus was "Rurik", a Swedish viking who settled in the area and created the first kingdom in Russia. The Grand Prince's of Novgorod, Ryazan, Galich etc were all descendants of him.


What about the people who Rurik displaced? We'll have to find their descendants and inform that they now own Russia.
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Re: Israel v Native Americans in the US

Postby Symmetry on Thu May 02, 2013 12:06 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:Istanbul back to the Greeks?

Not just Istanbul, basically all the good fertile regions in Turkey have been settled by Greeks for thousands of years before the Turks took it.


What about the Macedonians? Where's their fair share?


Erm, in Macedonia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia
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