Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

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Do we support the Marketplace Fairness Act?

Yes
10
32%
No
16
52%
Undecided
3
10%
Obligatory stupid option
2
6%
 
Total votes : 31

Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon May 13, 2013 7:36 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Let me just say this as a small business owner I fully support an equal playing field. I have a brick a mortar store and have been there for 33 years. Let me break it down for you.


Imposing the internet sales tax is not egalitarian because it places a disproportionate burden on online sellers' who use significantly less government-provided resources--relative to the brick-and-mortar stores.

Why do you support such an inegalitarian policy?


These same sellers use most all the same resources as the small business would. Besides how do you think it is fair for any state to lose money on taxable items by someone buying it online vs in a store. If you buy a TV or a computer online you are missing out on the Taxes that you would pay in a store. Why should it be different between the two?


Think of the means through which a customer takes in order to (1) buy something on the Internet, and (2) buy something at a local store.

Is there a difference?

(Yes, there is).
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue May 14, 2013 7:34 am

Two things I learned yesterday about this bill:

(1) The $1 million exception is for total sales; not total internet sales. So, a company that sells like $500,000 of product over the internet, but has $3 million of total sales is subject.

(2) More importantly, the law would apply to all remote sellers, not just internet sellers. In other words, if your brick and mortar store sells out of state, it would be subject to this law. Further, companies that sell services may also be subject to this law.

The more I read about this law (not from you BBS, sorry... you can't be the expert in everything related to economics) the more I dislike it for reasons other than those previously stated.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 14, 2013 11:48 am

thegreekdog wrote:Two things I learned yesterday about this bill:

(1) The $1 million exception is for total sales; not total internet sales. So, a company that sells like $500,000 of product over the internet, but has $3 million of total sales is subject.

(2) More importantly, the law would apply to all remote sellers, not just internet sellers. In other words, if your brick and mortar store sells out of state, it would be subject to this law. Further, companies that sell services may also be subject to this law.

The more I read about this law (not from you BBS, sorry... you can't be the expert in everything related to economics) the more I dislike it for reasons other than those previously stated.


Oh, what have I been incorrect about?
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue May 14, 2013 3:56 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Two things I learned yesterday about this bill:

(1) The $1 million exception is for total sales; not total internet sales. So, a company that sells like $500,000 of product over the internet, but has $3 million of total sales is subject.

(2) More importantly, the law would apply to all remote sellers, not just internet sellers. In other words, if your brick and mortar store sells out of state, it would be subject to this law. Further, companies that sell services may also be subject to this law.

The more I read about this law (not from you BBS, sorry... you can't be the expert in everything related to economics) the more I dislike it for reasons other than those previously stated.

Care to go into more detail?

I am seriously interested in your views on this. (might be a few days before I can check back, but I will read your post)
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue May 14, 2013 6:35 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Two things I learned yesterday about this bill:

(1) The $1 million exception is for total sales; not total internet sales. So, a company that sells like $500,000 of product over the internet, but has $3 million of total sales is subject.

(2) More importantly, the law would apply to all remote sellers, not just internet sellers. In other words, if your brick and mortar store sells out of state, it would be subject to this law. Further, companies that sell services may also be subject to this law.

The more I read about this law (not from you BBS, sorry... you can't be the expert in everything related to economics) the more I dislike it for reasons other than those previously stated.

Care to go into more detail?

I am seriously interested in your views on this. (might be a few days before I can check back, but I will read your post)


There are some posts in here from me on this. You should read those. I don't have anything new to add.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue May 14, 2013 6:37 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Two things I learned yesterday about this bill:

(1) The $1 million exception is for total sales; not total internet sales. So, a company that sells like $500,000 of product over the internet, but has $3 million of total sales is subject.

(2) More importantly, the law would apply to all remote sellers, not just internet sellers. In other words, if your brick and mortar store sells out of state, it would be subject to this law. Further, companies that sell services may also be subject to this law.

The more I read about this law (not from you BBS, sorry... you can't be the expert in everything related to economics) the more I dislike it for reasons other than those previously stated.


Oh, what have I been incorrect about?


Did I say incorrect? I'm pretty sure I typed "you can't be the expert" not that you're incorrect. The problem with your argument is not the substance of the argument, it's that you're arguing something that is not specific to this law. I would argue the same thing except about sales taxes generally. It's like arguing about the environmental impact of things in an economics discussion.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Tue May 14, 2013 6:40 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Two things I learned yesterday about this bill:

(1) The $1 million exception is for total sales; not total internet sales. So, a company that sells like $500,000 of product over the internet, but has $3 million of total sales is subject.

(2) More importantly, the law would apply to all remote sellers, not just internet sellers. In other words, if your brick and mortar store sells out of state, it would be subject to this law. Further, companies that sell services may also be subject to this law.

The more I read about this law (not from you BBS, sorry... you can't be the expert in everything related to economics) the more I dislike it for reasons other than those previously stated.


Oh, what have I been incorrect about?


Did I say incorrect? I'm pretty sure I typed "you can't be the expert" not that you're incorrect. The problem with your argument is not the substance of the argument, it's that you're arguing something that is not specific to this law. I would argue the same thing except about sales taxes generally. It's like arguing about the environmental impact of things in an economics discussion.


Or vice versa, which I've run into a few times here :-k.

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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Bruceswar on Tue May 14, 2013 10:24 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:I can drive to Buffalo, pay New York sales tax and then get refunded that tax when I cross back into Canada.


Well that sounds like a Canadian Issue to me that the gov of Canada needs to work out. Why does Canada give you back those taxes when you cross back over?

It wouldn't be Canada that would refund you the taxes, it would be New York State.

Not all, but most, jurisdictions follow the doctrine that sales tax is for goods consumed locally and not for export. Thus, if you can prove that you are taking the goods out of their jurisdiction, you are an exporting and exempt to sales tax. If you already paid them, then those would be refundable.

Surely you've seen mail-order catalogues and whatnot, with "California residents add such-and-such sales tax" if they're in California or "Illinois residents add such-and-such sales tax" if they're in Illinois. That's the same doctrine. Only goods consumed locally are subject to those sales taxes, and if you're taking them out of the place they are sold, then you are not exempt.



OK so for Canada to fix this problem, then you need Canada to impose an Import Tax so that people do not want to drive to the US to buy goods or rather make it even for both sides of the boarder.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Timminz on Tue May 14, 2013 11:10 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:I can drive to Buffalo, pay New York sales tax and then get refunded that tax when I cross back into Canada.


Well that sounds like a Canadian Issue to me that the gov of Canada needs to work out. Why does Canada give you back those taxes when you cross back over?

It wouldn't be Canada that would refund you the taxes, it would be New York State.

Not all, but most, jurisdictions follow the doctrine that sales tax is for goods consumed locally and not for export. Thus, if you can prove that you are taking the goods out of their jurisdiction, you are an exporting and exempt to sales tax. If you already paid them, then those would be refundable.

Surely you've seen mail-order catalogues and whatnot, with "California residents add such-and-such sales tax" if they're in California or "Illinois residents add such-and-such sales tax" if they're in Illinois. That's the same doctrine. Only goods consumed locally are subject to those sales taxes, and if you're taking them out of the place they are sold, then you are not exempt.



OK so for Canada to fix this problem, then you need Canada to impose an Import Tax so that people do not want to drive to the US to buy goods or rather make it even for both sides of the boarder.


What, and piss-off our biggest trading partner?!
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Postby danco on Tue May 14, 2013 11:26 pm

danco wrote:America love it or leave it thank you Ariche Bunker nice to know you still out there there are things only gov. can ,will,or should do i thought everyone knew this the founders provided a list mabey you ve heard of it a few things have been added no one has a problem helping the helpless banks. GM and the wind and solar scam not part of that group brick and mortor stores will evolve or cease your argement sounds like the complants against supermarkets 80 years ago or Walmart 20 years ago if your looking for the gov to solve problems with your compition you already have a phone book open to the blue pages the listing your after is under Welfare
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 15, 2013 1:43 am

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Two things I learned yesterday about this bill:

(1) The $1 million exception is for total sales; not total internet sales. So, a company that sells like $500,000 of product over the internet, but has $3 million of total sales is subject.

(2) More importantly, the law would apply to all remote sellers, not just internet sellers. In other words, if your brick and mortar store sells out of state, it would be subject to this law. Further, companies that sell services may also be subject to this law.

The more I read about this law (not from you BBS, sorry... you can't be the expert in everything related to economics) the more I dislike it for reasons other than those previously stated.


Oh, what have I been incorrect about?


Did I say incorrect? I'm pretty sure I typed "you can't be the expert" not that you're incorrect. The problem with your argument is not the substance of the argument, it's that you're arguing something that is not specific to this law. I would argue the same thing except about sales taxes generally. It's like arguing about the environmental impact of things in an economics discussion.


I'm really at a loss here. Could you be more specific?

(Economics and environmental aspects are interrelated...)
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Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 15, 2013 1:45 am

danco wrote:
danco wrote:America love it or leave it thank you Ariche Bunker nice to know you still out there there are things only gov. can ,will,or should do i thought everyone knew this the founders provided a list mabey you ve heard of it a few things have been added no one has a problem helping the helpless banks. GM and the wind and solar scam not part of that group brick and mortor stores will evolve or cease your argement sounds like the complants against supermarkets 80 years ago or Walmart 20 years ago if your looking for the gov to solve problems with your compition you already have a phone book open to the blue pages the listing your after is under Welfare


Run-on sentences are hard to interpret.

You're supplying a high price for attention, and the demanders simply aren't willing to agree to the price of that exchange.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Bruceswar on Wed May 15, 2013 2:40 am

Timminz wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:I can drive to Buffalo, pay New York sales tax and then get refunded that tax when I cross back into Canada.


Well that sounds like a Canadian Issue to me that the gov of Canada needs to work out. Why does Canada give you back those taxes when you cross back over?

It wouldn't be Canada that would refund you the taxes, it would be New York State.

Not all, but most, jurisdictions follow the doctrine that sales tax is for goods consumed locally and not for export. Thus, if you can prove that you are taking the goods out of their jurisdiction, you are an exporting and exempt to sales tax. If you already paid them, then those would be refundable.

Surely you've seen mail-order catalogues and whatnot, with "California residents add such-and-such sales tax" if they're in California or "Illinois residents add such-and-such sales tax" if they're in Illinois. That's the same doctrine. Only goods consumed locally are subject to those sales taxes, and if you're taking them out of the place they are sold, then you are not exempt.



OK so for Canada to fix this problem, then you need Canada to impose an Import Tax so that people do not want to drive to the US to buy goods or rather make it even for both sides of the boarder.


What, and piss-off our biggest trading partner?!



By imposing an import tax on items bought online or brought back by people will not cause that big of a rift between the US and Canada. When we American's go over to Mexico we have to pay a tax on items we bring back. Seems logical to me.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby AAFitz on Wed May 15, 2013 6:36 am

Night Strike wrote:By the way, the taxation without representation also applies to the customers. I don't live in California and am not presently traveling in that state. Why should I be forced to pay their sales taxes?


Because you bought a product that was manufactured, transported, and regulated by that state. State resources were used even if only on a paperwork basis, to enable that sale, and the state is simply trying to recoup some of that cost, from the benefit both you as a consumer and the seller receive, from resources paid by other tax payers that did not buy that product. Your logic software has a pervasive bug. You really need to reboot.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed May 15, 2013 7:01 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Two things I learned yesterday about this bill:

(1) The $1 million exception is for total sales; not total internet sales. So, a company that sells like $500,000 of product over the internet, but has $3 million of total sales is subject.

(2) More importantly, the law would apply to all remote sellers, not just internet sellers. In other words, if your brick and mortar store sells out of state, it would be subject to this law. Further, companies that sell services may also be subject to this law.

The more I read about this law (not from you BBS, sorry... you can't be the expert in everything related to economics) the more I dislike it for reasons other than those previously stated.


Oh, what have I been incorrect about?


Did I say incorrect? I'm pretty sure I typed "you can't be the expert" not that you're incorrect. The problem with your argument is not the substance of the argument, it's that you're arguing something that is not specific to this law. I would argue the same thing except about sales taxes generally. It's like arguing about the environmental impact of things in an economics discussion.


I'm really at a loss here. Could you be more specific?

(Economics and environmental aspects are interrelated...)


I don't think you're really at a loss, but okay.

TGD Point (paraphrased) - "This puts internet sellers on the same footing as brick and mortar stores."
BBS's Argument (paraphrased) - "Taxes [when not linked to state benefits granted] are bad. Therefore this tax is bad."

A fine argument. One that I agree with on a general basis. But why have that discussion in what is ostensibly a discussion about the taxation of products sold over the internet and not about taxation generally? Is "taxes are bad" tangentially relevant? Sure. Is it relevant in the context of explaining why brick-and-mortar stores and internet companies are now on equal footing? No.

To go back to my analogy, in a thread about eminent domain and contract law, bringing up the environmental impact of fracking is irrelevant to the conversation. Is it tangentially relevant? Yes. Is it relevant in the context of responding to a post about contract law? Of course not; it's just white noise.

If I didn't know you better, I would accuse you of trying to change the discussion to suit your particular knowledge and interests (e.g. Player in every thread). But I acknowledge that I'm incredibly egotistical and jumped at the chance to provide knowledgeable insight in this thread... and you've made me angry because you're typing stuff that I think, as an expert, is irrelevant, but it also happens to be stuff that I agree with.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 15, 2013 12:50 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
I don't think you're really at a loss, but okay.

TGD Point (paraphrased) - "This puts internet sellers on the same footing as brick and mortar stores."
BBS's Argument (paraphrased) - "Taxes [when not linked to state benefits granted] are bad. Therefore this tax is bad."

A fine argument. One that I agree with on a general basis. But why have that discussion in what is ostensibly a discussion about the taxation of products sold over the internet and not about taxation generally? Is "taxes are bad" tangentially relevant? Sure. Is it relevant in the context of explaining why brick-and-mortar stores and internet companies are now on equal footing? No.

To go back to my analogy, in a thread about eminent domain and contract law, bringing up the environmental impact of fracking is irrelevant to the conversation. Is it tangentially relevant? Yes. Is it relevant in the context of responding to a post about contract law? Of course not; it's just white noise.

If I didn't know you better, I would accuse you of trying to change the discussion to suit your particular knowledge and interests (e.g. Player in every thread). But I acknowledge that I'm incredibly egotistical and jumped at the chance to provide knowledgeable insight in this thread... and you've made me angry because you're typing stuff that I think, as an expert, is irrelevant, but it also happens to be stuff that I agree with.


Oh, I see. Yeah, we're talking about two different subjects. I'm addressing people who see the necessity of the tax (Brucewars, now AAFitz, etc.), and you're addressing some other issue.

We'll just not talk to each other ITT if that makes you happy because neither of us seems interested in each other's topic.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Timminz on Wed May 15, 2013 2:02 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
Timminz wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:I can drive to Buffalo, pay New York sales tax and then get refunded that tax when I cross back into Canada.

Well that sounds like a Canadian Issue to me that the gov of Canada needs to work out. Why does Canada give you back those taxes when you cross back over?

It wouldn't be Canada that would refund you the taxes, it would be New York State.

Not all, but most, jurisdictions follow the doctrine that sales tax is for goods consumed locally and not for export. Thus, if you can prove that you are taking the goods out of their jurisdiction, you are an exporting and exempt to sales tax. If you already paid them, then those would be refundable.

Surely you've seen mail-order catalogues and whatnot, with "California residents add such-and-such sales tax" if they're in California or "Illinois residents add such-and-such sales tax" if they're in Illinois. That's the same doctrine. Only goods consumed locally are subject to those sales taxes, and if you're taking them out of the place they are sold, then you are not exempt.

OK so for Canada to fix this problem, then you need Canada to impose an Import Tax so that people do not want to drive to the US to buy goods or rather make it even for both sides of the boarder.

What, and piss-off our biggest trading partner?!

By imposing an import tax on items bought online or brought back by people will not cause that big of a rift between the US and Canada. When we American's go over to Mexico we have to pay a tax on items we bring back. Seems logical to me.


I would suggest that Mexico's power over the US is rather insignificant compared to the US's power over Canada.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Bruceswar on Fri May 17, 2013 12:15 am

Timminz wrote:
I would suggest that Mexico's power over the US is rather insignificant compared to the US's power over Canada.



So how do you suppose Canada fix its problem.
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Timminz on Fri May 17, 2013 9:46 am

Bruceswar wrote:
Timminz wrote:
I would suggest that Mexico's power over the US is rather insignificant compared to the US's power over Canada.



So how do you suppose Canada fix its problem.


Which problem?
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Fri May 17, 2013 1:00 pm

Does Canada have an internet syrup tax?

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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Bruceswar on Sun May 19, 2013 9:53 pm

Timminz wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
Timminz wrote:
I would suggest that Mexico's power over the US is rather insignificant compared to the US's power over Canada.



So how do you suppose Canada fix its problem.


Which problem?



The problem of Canadians coming to the US to shop to save the tax. :)
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Night Strike on Mon May 20, 2013 9:32 am

No one has yet to explain how it's "fair" to force an internet business to collect taxes for 9000 jurisdictions when brick and mortar stores only have to collect taxes for 1 jurisdiction.

http://thestatelessman.com/2013/05/18/internet-sales-tax/
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Symmetry on Mon May 20, 2013 9:50 am

Night Strike wrote:No one has yet to explain how it's "fair" to force an internet business to collect taxes for 9000 jurisdictions when brick and mortar stores only have to collect taxes for 1 jurisdiction.

http://thestatelessman.com/2013/05/18/internet-sales-tax/


Don't brick and mortar stores like, say Walmart, collect taxes over more than one jurisdiction? Do you think they should pay sales tax in places where they sell?
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Timminz on Mon May 20, 2013 10:01 am

Night Strike wrote:No one has yet to explain how it's "fair" to force an internet business to collect taxes for 9000 jurisdictions when brick and mortar stores only have to collect taxes for 1 jurisdiction.


Hmm.. perhaps it should depend on how many jurisdictions each type of business conducts their business in.

Bruceswar wrote:
Timminz wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
Timminz wrote:I would suggest that Mexico's power over the US is rather insignificant compared to the US's power over Canada.

So how do you suppose Canada fix its problem.

Which problem?

The problem of Canadians coming to the US to shop to save the tax. :)


It's the US that's giving them back the taxes they spent. Canada isn't the one losing out.

How do you suppose any country stop people from going to another country to take advantage of the things that country does/allows, that their home country does not?
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Re: Do we support the Internet Sales Tax?

Postby Night Strike on Mon May 20, 2013 10:06 am

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:No one has yet to explain how it's "fair" to force an internet business to collect taxes for 9000 jurisdictions when brick and mortar stores only have to collect taxes for 1 jurisdiction.

http://thestatelessman.com/2013/05/18/internet-sales-tax/


Don't brick and mortar stores like, say Walmart, collect taxes over more than one jurisdiction? Do you think they should pay sales tax in places where they sell?


Yeah, and those sales taxes are handled by those specific stores because the money from each store is tracked independently. Plus, there are a lot more businesses that sell on the internet than just the giant corporations.

Timminz wrote:
Night Strike wrote:No one has yet to explain how it's "fair" to force an internet business to collect taxes for 9000 jurisdictions when brick and mortar stores only have to collect taxes for 1 jurisdiction.


Hmm.. perhaps it should depend on how many jurisdictions each type of business conducts their business in.


If they sell their products online, they potentially conduct business in every single one of those jurisdictions.
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