Education in the USA

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Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 4:57 pm

Reposting in its own thread as I was off topic:

Post 1)

Phatscotty wrote:Here is one example, posted today or very recently viewtopic.php?f=8&t=190348&start=15#p4161676

That is an example of political correctness. That is not, however, an example of education being in some way bias to such an extent that the primary function is no longer to raise intelligence but instead to indocterine the students to some way of thinking. For example in Nobungas situation; say the book was a 5 year olds picture book about counting/numbers; do you think that the major end result of teaching using that book will be -a- teach the five year old about the importance of diversity or -b- teach the five year old how to count...?

Where do you want to start? Do you want to reverse engineer it? Like, let's just give the benefit of the doubt that what I said is 100% true. What would that system look like? How would that indoctrination, in reality, look right now in America?

I find it very hard to visualise. I would suggest that at whatever point this indoctrination was occuring would directly result in a dramatic increase in failure rates for the progression to the next level of education; e.g. using my example above, those 5 year olds would have sub-standard levels of math ability if instead of learning to count they only learned about diversity, therefore they would then fail any test which objectively tested their ability to count.

Of this could be covered/hidden by the fact that the tests could be getting modified to test for political correctness rather than traditional areas.

Is this happening? Are the students failing more and more? Are the tests changing?

For example: Would you find certain facts, like that over (1) 90% of America's collegiate faculty are of a certain political ideology, and (2) the other ideology is not respected, (3) completely misrepresented, and even (4) openly encouraged to be attacked?

(1) I would see that as a problem only if corruption/neopotism is a factor in why this 90% representation has come about. Is there any reason why an academic of the 10% political idealogy would not be able to to become a professor of something which has nothing to do with politics? (e.g. science, engineering, etc., even economics and law principles do not need a specific political alignment in which to be taught).
(2) and (3) I am going to need to see some actual evidence here. And how if it exists what possible relevance does it have to the education delivered at colleges/universities?
(4) The single most important lesson you will ever learn at college/university is how to think critically. This involves, at its heart, attacking preconceived notions and questioning the rationale behind them. I would hope that not only is this political idealogy being attacked, but every school of thought across the entire spectrum is being challenged and questioned by the students studying them.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 4:58 pm

Post 2) (reply to the above)

Phatscotty wrote:You are missing the correct perspective. But that's okay, you aren't in America and did not go through American education and do not have friends who all grew up to work in the education system, like I do :D

it is very true that the Left completely dominated our universities. Virtually all radicalism comes from the universities, but it's "education" so their radicalism gets mainstreamed through culture shock and emotional manipulation/control. There overall statement about Education in America is "we teach you what to think" and its NOT "we teach you how to think". That isn't to say there aren't great and wonderful teachers out there of either ideology, because there are. But it's the exception. You also need to understand I have witnessed first hand leftist brainwashing on more than a few occasions at universities and community colleges and high school I attended, my friends attended, my family attended.


If we can bring this angle full circle into how brainwashing political correctness is being indoctrinated into our children today, we see news stories everyday here in America, especially on local levels, of teachers calling students "murderers" for cutting a piece of paper into the shape of a gun, calling the police because a student bit a pop tart into the shape of a gun, suspending students for wearing 2nd amendment t-shirts, and expelling eagle scouts who left their rifle in the trunk of their car and did the right thing and notified someone that the situation needed to be corrected, but the panic came anyways. Our children are learning to fear the mention of the word "gun" in their schools, and those schools are dominated by the Left. I'm sure I don't have to go over the removal of God from schools, again, the Left makes the rules.

Like they say with gay marriage "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" the same can also be said for our right to bear arms "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" Because, as all young people who are indoctrinated will tell you (just ask them) they know all about the world they have never stepped a foot into, and are more than willing to confront their parents and elders about how they don't know anything, and their ways are wrong, and the young people who have no experience know what's best. It's the mark of brainwash

And yes that is happening. Students are failing more and more. In New York some high schools are producing graduates at levels of 80% that are illiterate. And yes the test are also changing. They are being "standardized", and the name of that program is Common Core if you want to understand what I'm talking about here
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 5:04 pm

Do you want me to copy paste the response I gave in the other thread in this one??

Just adding another example that happened today, concerning the original statement that the goals of the education system today are focused on behavior control and politically correct indoctrination.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2 ... Like-a-Gun

A Suffolk school suspended a second grader for pointing a pencil at another student and making gun noises. Seven-year-old Christopher Marshall says he was playing with another student in class Friday, when the teacher at Driver Elementary asked them to stop pointing pencils at each other. “When I asked him about it, he said, ‘Well I was being a Marine and the other guy was being a bad guy,’” said Paul Marshall, the boy’s father. “It’s as simple as that.” Christopher’s father was a Marine for many years. He thinks school leaders overreacted. “A pencil is a weapon when it is pointed at someone in a threatening way and gun noises are made,” said Bethanne Bradshaw, a spokesperson for Suffolk Public Schools. The Suffolk school system has a “zero tolerance policy” when it comes to weapons. And, Bradshaw admits, that policy has tightened up in recent years because of widely publicized school shootings.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 5:29 pm

Phatscotty wrote:You are missing the correct perspective. But that's okay, you aren't in America and did not go through American education and do not have friends who all grew up to work in the education system, like I do :D

And hence I am, in the bulk of my posts, asking for referenced information. So far you have provided assertions and rhetoric. If I wanted assertions and rhetoric I would pick a fight with BBS or J9B, they are far more interesting. (see two can play the condescending game my man)

it is very true that the Left completely dominated our universities. Virtually all radicalism comes from the universities, but it's "education" so their radicalism gets mainstreamed through culture shock and emotional manipulation/control. There overall statement about Education in America is "we teach you what to think" and its NOT "we teach you how to think". That isn't to say there aren't great and wonderful teachers out there of either ideology, because there are. But it's the exception. You also need to understand I have witnessed first hand leftist brainwashing on more than a few occasions at universities and community colleges and high school I attended, my friends attended, my family attended.

References please. No offence but I dont believe you (as there has already been a couple (BBS and Woody) posts that have disagreed) - I am not saying you are wrong, I just want to see concrete evidence.

And no, an opinion piece by some reporter is not a valid reference.

If we can bring this angle full circle into how brainwashing political correctness is being indoctrinated into our children today, we see news stories everyday here in America, especially on local levels, of teachers calling students "murderers" for cutting a piece of paper into the shape of a gun, calling the police because a student bit a pop tart into the shape of a gun, suspending students for wearing 2nd amendment t-shirts, and expelling eagle scouts who left their rifle in the trunk of their car and did the right thing and notified someone that the situation needed to be corrected, but the panic came anyways. Our children are learning to fear the mention of the word "gun" in their schools, and those schools are dominated by the Left. I'm sure I don't have to go over the removal of God from schools, again, the Left makes the rules.

The thing is those are all valid concerns. And I agree with your sentiment (except the god one, but lets agree to disagree - not point in going down that path). However you have a problem in your argument: Those stories are not indicative of high level education failure. They are fine examples of policy and/or individual level failure (in terms of using your judgement/flexibility), but in no way do they suggest the education system is focussing more on indoctrination rather than critical thought.

To repeat (broken record...): I want evidence of the education system deteriorating in terms of its high level primary focus (strategy if you will). (rest assured I fully agree that if the focus has moved away from critical thought and is now primarily political agenda then I will rally to your call).

Like they say with gay marriage "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" the same can also be said for our right to bear arms "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" Because, as all young people who are indoctrinated will tell you (just ask them) they know all about the world they have never stepped a foot into, and are more than willing to confront their parents and elders about how they don't know anything, and their ways are wrong, and the young people who have no experience know what's best. It's the mark of brainwash

Unfortunately thats a chicken or the egg argument that cannot be answered. You say its because of indoctrination, J_B will say its because of improved critical thought leading to what he sees as "better" opinion amongst the population.

In order to settle this I want more than you simply stating the rhetoric as if it is fact. That wouldn't hold up in any university, regardless of how bias/manipulative they are.

And yes that is happening. Students are failing more and more. In New York some high schools are producing graduates at levels of 80% that are illiterate. And yes the test are also changing. They are being "standardized", and the name of that program is Common Core if you want to understand what I'm talking about here

FINALLY I get something I can look up!

I am familiar with standardization, and am fairly ambivilent on the area. It has pro's and con's; pro's being that you get nice and consistent metrics in which to make adjustments to your system with, con's being that there are many different ways to learn, and forcing young people to learn a specific rigid form is sub-optimal [for some].

But standardization itself is not relevant to your position; it is what makes up the standards that matters.

I dug around and found: http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Practice

I went through each of those standards and fully agree with them; there is no evidence in those standards that suggests that the use of critical thought is being bypassed for political indoctrination.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 5:50 pm

It's indoctrination. I have went through the system myself. I cannot find a link on the internet that shows my experience where a teacher mentally bullies and brow-beats an entire class into political correctness. I can show you others



I'm sure common core looks okay to you, but here in the USA many states have already banned common core, because it lowers standards for students, and makes schools conform to a single way of teaching and learning. As you would expect a system which indoctrinates to be



I just ask that we try to take it one thing at a time, for clarity.I just want the discussion to be clear.
Last edited by Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Let's start over with my premise.

It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. Their aim is to teach students what to think, and not how to think. So far I have showed you a lot of clips from the last couple weeks where teachers and schools are putting the entire student body through a bunch of extreme experiences concerning even the mention of the word gun, or biting a pop tart into a gun shape, or pointing a pencil at someone and saying "bang bang", or wearing a second amendment t-shirt. All of those children are learning to be scared of something that is their constitutional right. Those are all great examples of how fear is used to control.

But that's just a few examples of how they are terrifying students and mind-fucking them concerning the right to bear arms. But it goes beyond that, and every single American value is under attack in our education system, and the narrative in all cases is Leftism.

There is no tolerance for Christianity, but any other religion is protected and even promoted in our schools. Even asking students to recite the American pledge came under attack and has been removed in a majority of schools. But if an Islamic group of students wants to recite the pledge, and change the words to "under Allah", it's protected, and even promoted over the loud speaker so every person in the building is forced to hear it.

high school recites Pledge in Arabic saying 'One Nation Under Allah'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Allah.html

The majority of education system promotes anti-Americanism, in every way.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 7:45 pm

Phatscotty wrote:It's indoctrination. I have went through the system myself. I cannot find a link on the internet that shows my experience where a teacher mentally bullies and brow-beats an entire class into political correctness. I can show you others


Professor Bradley should be fired. I completely agree.

I'm sure common core looks okay to you, but here in the USA many states have already banned common core, because it lowers standards for students, and makes schools conform to a single way of teaching and learning. As you would expect a system which indoctrinates to be



I just ask that we try to take it one thing at a time, for clarity.I just want the discussion to be clear.

While you/Mr Beck may be correct that this is some elaborate scam in which to brain wash an entire generation; the policy (as far as I am aware) doesnt seem to have any of this in it...

States can develop systems that include data to serve multiple purposes, such as to
1. improve instruction and identify successful instructional programs within the State,
2. determine priorities for allocating scarce State and local resources,
3. devise methods for identifying effective teachers and teaching practices,
4. identify programs and pathways that encourage students to stay in school and enter postsecondary education,
5. determine whether high school graduates have the knowledge and skills to succeed in postsecondary education, the workforce, and the Armed Forces without the need for remediation,
6. strengthen the preparation of all students for success after high school,
7. provide accurate information about schools, school staff, and the progress of students, and
8. support accountability and public reporting.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/leg/recov ... s-2010.pdf

So the high level policy outlines the usage; and while certainly it will not suit everyone is its content (those who dont, and maybe rightly so, trust the government) there is nothing in there that says that the high level strategy of education will change direction from a traditional teaching focus (math, science, history, english, etc etc).

While it may fit under your definition of un-American (largely due to privacy concerns); there is nothing in the content that is un-Educational or pro-Indoctrination. To see that (if it exists) it must be part of the details/implementation by definition.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:03 pm

What is your definition of indoctrination, and what is the reason you think education in the USA is improving.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:08 pm

1. improve instruction and identify successful instructional programs within the State,
2. determine priorities for allocating scarce State and local resources,
3. devise methods for identifying effective teachers and teaching practices,
4. identify programs and pathways that encourage students to stay in school and enter postsecondary education,
5. determine whether high school graduates have the knowledge and skills to succeed in postsecondary education, the workforce, and the Armed Forces without the need for remediation,
6. strengthen the preparation of all students for success after high school,
7. provide accurate information about schools, school staff, and the progress of students, and
8. support accountability and public reporting.


Is this the first time these goals have ever been attempted in America?
What previous education programs did not seek to meet any one of these goals?

And I can't get over this weird feeling why I am asking these questions to someone who doesn't live in America and has zero experience in America's education system, and why I would. But I am willing to have it out cuz you are an okay guy and I think I have compiled plenty of evidence over the years to display. So, just curious, why are you so interested in American education, or do you just want to take on Phatscotty?

And I will remind you I only threw common core out there as an example of how the education system is becoming more and more centralized, one size fits all. Concerning indoctrination, that's what would be expected.
Last edited by Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 07, 2013 8:12 pm

So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:19 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).


So, since the national policy goals are 100% the truth and there is no way it's bullshit.....The reinvestment act Lootifer sourced can be anything you want it to be. It's pretty clear by now all it was was a fix to keep states spending money they still don't have in hopes we could ride out the Great Recession without making cuts. I don't see anything in those goals that address homosexuality. But homosexuality in the classroom is part of common core. Tell me, which of those goals does that topic fit into?

BBS, why do you take the national policy goals as gospel? Just because they say those are the goals....those are the goals? Is it at all possible, that even if the goals are not just the standard bullshit everyone has to say when requesting hundreds of billions of dollars to support? Really, all those goals say is "It's for the kids, and it's good" Were those not the goals of no child left behind? What happened? It didn't work? Oh, but they had goals....

Sure we can move to the goals of the states. Can we also move to the goals of the teachers unions?
Last edited by Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 07, 2013 8:22 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).


So, since the national policy goals are 100% the truth and there is no way it's bullshit.....

BBS, why do you take the national policy goals as gospel?


I'm not, but your claims require you to search in areas which do not confirm your claims--thus, the recommended rerouting to State education boards and their actions (not just their stated policies).

You could even examine--beyond the stated goals--the actions and outcomes of the National Education Board (whatever their exact name is) in order to make your point.

But... you're not doing any of this, so... what will your next move be?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:26 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).


So, since the national policy goals are 100% the truth and there is no way it's bullshit.....

BBS, why do you take the national policy goals as gospel?


I'm not, but your claims require you to search in areas which do not confirm your claims--thus, the recommended rerouting to State education boards and their actions (not just their stated policies).

You could even examine--beyond the stated goals--the actions and outcomes of the National Education Board (whatever their exact name is) in order to make your point.

But... you're not doing any of this, so... what will your next move be?


Wait, the stated goals of common core disprove my statement that universities indoctrinate political correctness?

Aren't you really saying "they say they don't"?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:33 pm

idk loot, this is getting screwy with 2 threads on basically the same thing This convo is perfectly able to be had in the thread in which it was started
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 07, 2013 9:08 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).


So, since the national policy goals are 100% the truth and there is no way it's bullshit.....

BBS, why do you take the national policy goals as gospel?


I'm not, but your claims require you to search in areas which do not confirm your claims--thus, the recommended rerouting to State education boards and their actions (not just their stated policies).

You could even examine--beyond the stated goals--the actions and outcomes of the National Education Board (whatever their exact name is) in order to make your point.

But... you're not doing any of this, so... what will your next move be?


Wait, the stated goals of common core disprove my statement that universities indoctrinate political correctness?

Aren't you really saying "they say they don't"?


Based upon's Loot list of stated goals, I don't find enough evidence that supports your ever-shifting position (indoctrination, dominant Left, Common Core, political correctness).

Anyway, how about the actions and outcomes of those educational boards?

And, how are you going to correct for your sample bias?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 9:15 pm

But it's not really Loot's list, it's a list from the Stimulus Bill. (which boosted spending in education by over 100% in 2 years, yet results were worse, but just look at the polticial movement charged out of the universities!) I don't even see how that has anything to do with what I said anyways. I think that is what is ever shifting.

What about the actions and outcomes?

I am just providing examples. Everyone else feel free to show counter examples, like Conservative professors taking a stand for traditional marriage in the classroom, or an Astronomy teacher shouting at students why they need to vote Republican, or hour long rants about how Democrats are evil and racist, or about trying to share a bit of wisdom which originated from the Bible with a troubled child in school.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 9:26 pm

The thing is I am not arguing with you. I am simply asking for evidence of indoctrination.

The reason I ask is because I am very interested in education; I believe education is the fundamental key (along with basic safety nets for home life) to equality of opportunity. I believe in equality of opportunity as much as you believe in freedom, so naturally I take an interest.

You have shown examples of indoctrination, and then shown me an analysis on some big brother/data mining in schools thing.

Neither of which have shown me a high level systemic redirection of educational strategy; which is the whole point of me making this thread.

I should, however, known better.

I will try to reply to your other posts but I am quite busy atm.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 9:35 pm

Phatscotty wrote:What is your definition of indoctrination, and what is the reason you think education in the USA is improving.

My premise in this thread (and the other) is that I dont believe you when you say "indoctrination is the focus of education in USA".

I think we both understand what indoctrination is; my reason for asking you for evidence is not "is indoctrination really occuring?", but more specifically "is indoctrination the focus of education in USA?".

I dont doubt that there is indoctrination occuring in the education system in USA; and while that may be a problem*, it is not nearly as problematic as a system wide direction change away from education focusing on, well, educating.

*and like BBS says it isnt simply a case of one offender here.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 07, 2013 9:41 pm

Here's the study:

http://www.cwu.edu/~manwellerm/academic%20bias.pdf

See page 7: attitudes about social issues (homosexuality, abortion, co-habitation) and the economic (government provides full employment, envr. protection at the cost of less jobs and higher prices, reduce income gap).


What do they mean by 'left/liberal' and 'right/conservative'?

See page 14:

The Ideology Index includes six questions that measure respondents’ views on
political and social issues: “The government should work to ensure that everyone
has a job” (codesreversed); “Government should work to reduce the income gap
between rich and poor” (responses reversed); “More environmental protection is
needed, even if it raises prices or costs jobs;” “Homosexuality is as acceptable a
lifestyle as heterosexuality” (responses reversed); “It is a woman's right to decide
whether or not to have an abortion” (responses reversed); and “It is alright for a
couple to live together without intending to get married” (responses reversed). A
Cronbach’s alpha of .79 was computed for the index, indicating high inter-item
correlation.


(a) Six questions determines your ideology (lol, wow!--it's worse than that online Personality test!)
(b) The questions conflate economic and social issues into narrow categories: liberal/Left v. conservative/Right.

Three problems:

(1) framing effect. If you want to show that "the Left dominates," then frame questions in their above way. (I'll show the opposite of what they're doing below).

(2) omit other important questions:

I wonder how the results would look if the following questions were asked: "should federal government be limited?" "what about State governments?" "Should government expenditures on military be reduced?" (I bet a lot would say Yes to that one, thus would become more 'conservative/Right'---assuming that being 'conservative/Right' means reducing the scope and budget of government, right?). "Should the US invade more countries for our freedom?" (lol, joke question, but note how there's nothing about wars in the survey).

Opposite framing effect:

    “Should the market work to ensure that everyone has a job?"; “
    Should the market work to reduce the income gap between rich and poor?;"
    “Should the market work to ensure more environmental protection, even if it raises prices or costs jobs"?

Here's another way of framing:
    Or “Should the government work to ensure that everyone has a job---at the total cost of taking 50% of your total income?"; “
    Should the government work to reduce the income gap between rich and poor--at the total cost of taking 50% of your total income?"?;"
    “Should the government work to ensure more environmental protection, even if it raises prices or costs jobs--and at the total cost of taking 50% of your total income?"
(I forget the study that did this, but for some reason, the respondents became less 'liberal/Left'.

See how that'll change people's answers? I'm confident I could get that 'liberal' percentage to decrease if I hammered out a survey.


Finally, social positions != Left/liberal

“Homosexuality is as acceptable a
lifestyle as heterosexuality” (responses reversed); “It is a woman's right to decide
whether or not to have an abortion” (responses reversed); and “It is alright for a
couple to live together without intending to get married” (responses reversed).


Most people already agree with these issues. If you omit the social issues (from page 7), and then only look at the economic issues, then what % are 'liberal/Left'? (It appears to be the same result: ~75% 'liberal', so good job with the cross-referencing on their part, but again [insert problem of the framing effect argument].

And the results are distorted because there's no room for any moderate position. A somewhat Agree = Left/liberal, and a somewhat Disagree = Right/conservative. This makes me skeptical of the usefulness of their cross-referencing. It's odd if you get the similar results in Self-Described Ideology and ideology from the Survey---when the first shows ~10% moderate, yet the second shows 0% moderate (because 'somewhat' answers are either left or right). Very odd.

And see page 4 (ideological self-identification): It appears that ideological self-description is determined on a 10-point scale (1 and 2 being extreme left). So, how many selected '5' and '6'? Those would be the moderates, but they're 'excluded' from the graph... (looks like 10%). But what constitutes as 'moderate'? It doesn't say. How do I know if the researchers are not simply lumping '5' into 'left'?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 07, 2013 9:45 pm

Going off-topic, here's the most interesting point of that paper:

Assuming the self-identifying ideology scale is correct (page 4),
and since:
Further, the predominance of
liberal and Democratic perspectives is not limited to particular types of
institutions or to those occupying particular fields of study. A comparison of the
1999 survey with previous surveys of American faculty indicates a substantial
shift to the left in party identification and ideology since the mid-1980s, at a time
when ideological and party identification among the general public has been
relatively stable.


Then it seems to indicate that the academic organizations have been discriminating in favor of the 'Left'.


Of course:
It is entirely possible
that other unmeasured factors may account for those variations. That said, the
results are consistent with the hypothesis that politicalconservatism confers a
disadvantage in the competition for professional advancement
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 9:47 pm

Also another point to note:
"The question is how this translates into what happens within the academic community on such issues as curriculum, admission of students, evaluation of students, evaluation of faculty for salary and promotion." Knight said he isn't aware of "any good evidence" that personal views are having an impact on campus policies.

"It's hard to see that these liberal views cut very deeply into the education of students. In fact, a number of studies show the core values that students bring into the university are not very much altered by being in college."
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 9:50 pm

Question PS:

What part of that article you posted in other thread do you have the problem with:

- The writing of the word JESUS and standing on it?
- The student being kicked out of class because they refused to participate?
- The Universities policy that some of their teaching is controversial on purpose? ("While at times the topics discussed may be sensitive, a university environment is a venue for such dialogue and debate")
- All or some of the above
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby thegreekdog on Tue May 07, 2013 10:20 pm

I wonder if they ever did a study to determine what political affiliation most teachers tend to have. Are most teachers socially liberal? Fiscally conservative? Pro-life? Pro-gay marriage?

That would probably solve the question of "indoctrination." I will tell you that an unofficial survey of my teacher friends finds that 100% of those polled (8) are fiscally liberal (i.e. more spending, especially on teachers' salaries) and 50% of those polled (8) are pro-choice (4 of my friends are Catholic and 3 of them teach in Catholic schools).
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 11:43 pm

I did some reading on David Horowitz.

I dont doubt he has a point. But his material is without a doubt highly sensationalised. I mean come on, the guy looked at 12 Universities! Thats hardly a particularly good sample size when google tells me you have 2600 registered 4 year Universities or Colleges in USA...
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 08, 2013 12:58 am



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