Education in the USA

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Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 4:57 pm

Reposting in its own thread as I was off topic:

Post 1)

Phatscotty wrote:Here is one example, posted today or very recently viewtopic.php?f=8&t=190348&start=15#p4161676

That is an example of political correctness. That is not, however, an example of education being in some way bias to such an extent that the primary function is no longer to raise intelligence but instead to indocterine the students to some way of thinking. For example in Nobungas situation; say the book was a 5 year olds picture book about counting/numbers; do you think that the major end result of teaching using that book will be -a- teach the five year old about the importance of diversity or -b- teach the five year old how to count...?

Where do you want to start? Do you want to reverse engineer it? Like, let's just give the benefit of the doubt that what I said is 100% true. What would that system look like? How would that indoctrination, in reality, look right now in America?

I find it very hard to visualise. I would suggest that at whatever point this indoctrination was occuring would directly result in a dramatic increase in failure rates for the progression to the next level of education; e.g. using my example above, those 5 year olds would have sub-standard levels of math ability if instead of learning to count they only learned about diversity, therefore they would then fail any test which objectively tested their ability to count.

Of this could be covered/hidden by the fact that the tests could be getting modified to test for political correctness rather than traditional areas.

Is this happening? Are the students failing more and more? Are the tests changing?

For example: Would you find certain facts, like that over (1) 90% of America's collegiate faculty are of a certain political ideology, and (2) the other ideology is not respected, (3) completely misrepresented, and even (4) openly encouraged to be attacked?

(1) I would see that as a problem only if corruption/neopotism is a factor in why this 90% representation has come about. Is there any reason why an academic of the 10% political idealogy would not be able to to become a professor of something which has nothing to do with politics? (e.g. science, engineering, etc., even economics and law principles do not need a specific political alignment in which to be taught).
(2) and (3) I am going to need to see some actual evidence here. And how if it exists what possible relevance does it have to the education delivered at colleges/universities?
(4) The single most important lesson you will ever learn at college/university is how to think critically. This involves, at its heart, attacking preconceived notions and questioning the rationale behind them. I would hope that not only is this political idealogy being attacked, but every school of thought across the entire spectrum is being challenged and questioned by the students studying them.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 4:58 pm

Post 2) (reply to the above)

Phatscotty wrote:You are missing the correct perspective. But that's okay, you aren't in America and did not go through American education and do not have friends who all grew up to work in the education system, like I do :D

it is very true that the Left completely dominated our universities. Virtually all radicalism comes from the universities, but it's "education" so their radicalism gets mainstreamed through culture shock and emotional manipulation/control. There overall statement about Education in America is "we teach you what to think" and its NOT "we teach you how to think". That isn't to say there aren't great and wonderful teachers out there of either ideology, because there are. But it's the exception. You also need to understand I have witnessed first hand leftist brainwashing on more than a few occasions at universities and community colleges and high school I attended, my friends attended, my family attended.


If we can bring this angle full circle into how brainwashing political correctness is being indoctrinated into our children today, we see news stories everyday here in America, especially on local levels, of teachers calling students "murderers" for cutting a piece of paper into the shape of a gun, calling the police because a student bit a pop tart into the shape of a gun, suspending students for wearing 2nd amendment t-shirts, and expelling eagle scouts who left their rifle in the trunk of their car and did the right thing and notified someone that the situation needed to be corrected, but the panic came anyways. Our children are learning to fear the mention of the word "gun" in their schools, and those schools are dominated by the Left. I'm sure I don't have to go over the removal of God from schools, again, the Left makes the rules.

Like they say with gay marriage "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" the same can also be said for our right to bear arms "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" Because, as all young people who are indoctrinated will tell you (just ask them) they know all about the world they have never stepped a foot into, and are more than willing to confront their parents and elders about how they don't know anything, and their ways are wrong, and the young people who have no experience know what's best. It's the mark of brainwash

And yes that is happening. Students are failing more and more. In New York some high schools are producing graduates at levels of 80% that are illiterate. And yes the test are also changing. They are being "standardized", and the name of that program is Common Core if you want to understand what I'm talking about here
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 5:04 pm

Do you want me to copy paste the response I gave in the other thread in this one??

Just adding another example that happened today, concerning the original statement that the goals of the education system today are focused on behavior control and politically correct indoctrination.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2 ... Like-a-Gun

A Suffolk school suspended a second grader for pointing a pencil at another student and making gun noises. Seven-year-old Christopher Marshall says he was playing with another student in class Friday, when the teacher at Driver Elementary asked them to stop pointing pencils at each other. “When I asked him about it, he said, ‘Well I was being a Marine and the other guy was being a bad guy,’” said Paul Marshall, the boy’s father. “It’s as simple as that.” Christopher’s father was a Marine for many years. He thinks school leaders overreacted. “A pencil is a weapon when it is pointed at someone in a threatening way and gun noises are made,” said Bethanne Bradshaw, a spokesperson for Suffolk Public Schools. The Suffolk school system has a “zero tolerance policy” when it comes to weapons. And, Bradshaw admits, that policy has tightened up in recent years because of widely publicized school shootings.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 5:29 pm

Phatscotty wrote:You are missing the correct perspective. But that's okay, you aren't in America and did not go through American education and do not have friends who all grew up to work in the education system, like I do :D

And hence I am, in the bulk of my posts, asking for referenced information. So far you have provided assertions and rhetoric. If I wanted assertions and rhetoric I would pick a fight with BBS or J9B, they are far more interesting. (see two can play the condescending game my man)

it is very true that the Left completely dominated our universities. Virtually all radicalism comes from the universities, but it's "education" so their radicalism gets mainstreamed through culture shock and emotional manipulation/control. There overall statement about Education in America is "we teach you what to think" and its NOT "we teach you how to think". That isn't to say there aren't great and wonderful teachers out there of either ideology, because there are. But it's the exception. You also need to understand I have witnessed first hand leftist brainwashing on more than a few occasions at universities and community colleges and high school I attended, my friends attended, my family attended.

References please. No offence but I dont believe you (as there has already been a couple (BBS and Woody) posts that have disagreed) - I am not saying you are wrong, I just want to see concrete evidence.

And no, an opinion piece by some reporter is not a valid reference.

If we can bring this angle full circle into how brainwashing political correctness is being indoctrinated into our children today, we see news stories everyday here in America, especially on local levels, of teachers calling students "murderers" for cutting a piece of paper into the shape of a gun, calling the police because a student bit a pop tart into the shape of a gun, suspending students for wearing 2nd amendment t-shirts, and expelling eagle scouts who left their rifle in the trunk of their car and did the right thing and notified someone that the situation needed to be corrected, but the panic came anyways. Our children are learning to fear the mention of the word "gun" in their schools, and those schools are dominated by the Left. I'm sure I don't have to go over the removal of God from schools, again, the Left makes the rules.

The thing is those are all valid concerns. And I agree with your sentiment (except the god one, but lets agree to disagree - not point in going down that path). However you have a problem in your argument: Those stories are not indicative of high level education failure. They are fine examples of policy and/or individual level failure (in terms of using your judgement/flexibility), but in no way do they suggest the education system is focussing more on indoctrination rather than critical thought.

To repeat (broken record...): I want evidence of the education system deteriorating in terms of its high level primary focus (strategy if you will). (rest assured I fully agree that if the focus has moved away from critical thought and is now primarily political agenda then I will rally to your call).

Like they say with gay marriage "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" the same can also be said for our right to bear arms "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" Because, as all young people who are indoctrinated will tell you (just ask them) they know all about the world they have never stepped a foot into, and are more than willing to confront their parents and elders about how they don't know anything, and their ways are wrong, and the young people who have no experience know what's best. It's the mark of brainwash

Unfortunately thats a chicken or the egg argument that cannot be answered. You say its because of indoctrination, J_B will say its because of improved critical thought leading to what he sees as "better" opinion amongst the population.

In order to settle this I want more than you simply stating the rhetoric as if it is fact. That wouldn't hold up in any university, regardless of how bias/manipulative they are.

And yes that is happening. Students are failing more and more. In New York some high schools are producing graduates at levels of 80% that are illiterate. And yes the test are also changing. They are being "standardized", and the name of that program is Common Core if you want to understand what I'm talking about here

FINALLY I get something I can look up!

I am familiar with standardization, and am fairly ambivilent on the area. It has pro's and con's; pro's being that you get nice and consistent metrics in which to make adjustments to your system with, con's being that there are many different ways to learn, and forcing young people to learn a specific rigid form is sub-optimal [for some].

But standardization itself is not relevant to your position; it is what makes up the standards that matters.

I dug around and found: http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Practice

I went through each of those standards and fully agree with them; there is no evidence in those standards that suggests that the use of critical thought is being bypassed for political indoctrination.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 5:50 pm

It's indoctrination. I have went through the system myself. I cannot find a link on the internet that shows my experience where a teacher mentally bullies and brow-beats an entire class into political correctness. I can show you others



I'm sure common core looks okay to you, but here in the USA many states have already banned common core, because it lowers standards for students, and makes schools conform to a single way of teaching and learning. As you would expect a system which indoctrinates to be



I just ask that we try to take it one thing at a time, for clarity.I just want the discussion to be clear.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Let's start over with my premise.

It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. Their aim is to teach students what to think, and not how to think. So far I have showed you a lot of clips from the last couple weeks where teachers and schools are putting the entire student body through a bunch of extreme experiences concerning even the mention of the word gun, or biting a pop tart into a gun shape, or pointing a pencil at someone and saying "bang bang", or wearing a second amendment t-shirt. All of those children are learning to be scared of something that is their constitutional right. Those are all great examples of how fear is used to control.

But that's just a few examples of how they are terrifying students and mind-fucking them concerning the right to bear arms. But it goes beyond that, and every single American value is under attack in our education system, and the narrative in all cases is Leftism.

There is no tolerance for Christianity, but any other religion is protected and even promoted in our schools. Even asking students to recite the American pledge came under attack and has been removed in a majority of schools. But if an Islamic group of students wants to recite the pledge, and change the words to "under Allah", it's protected, and even promoted over the loud speaker so every person in the building is forced to hear it.

high school recites Pledge in Arabic saying 'One Nation Under Allah'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Allah.html

The majority of education system promotes anti-Americanism, in every way.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Tue May 07, 2013 7:45 pm

Phatscotty wrote:It's indoctrination. I have went through the system myself. I cannot find a link on the internet that shows my experience where a teacher mentally bullies and brow-beats an entire class into political correctness. I can show you others


Professor Bradley should be fired. I completely agree.

I'm sure common core looks okay to you, but here in the USA many states have already banned common core, because it lowers standards for students, and makes schools conform to a single way of teaching and learning. As you would expect a system which indoctrinates to be



I just ask that we try to take it one thing at a time, for clarity.I just want the discussion to be clear.

While you/Mr Beck may be correct that this is some elaborate scam in which to brain wash an entire generation; the policy (as far as I am aware) doesnt seem to have any of this in it...

States can develop systems that include data to serve multiple purposes, such as to
1. improve instruction and identify successful instructional programs within the State,
2. determine priorities for allocating scarce State and local resources,
3. devise methods for identifying effective teachers and teaching practices,
4. identify programs and pathways that encourage students to stay in school and enter postsecondary education,
5. determine whether high school graduates have the knowledge and skills to succeed in postsecondary education, the workforce, and the Armed Forces without the need for remediation,
6. strengthen the preparation of all students for success after high school,
7. provide accurate information about schools, school staff, and the progress of students, and
8. support accountability and public reporting.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/leg/recov ... s-2010.pdf

So the high level policy outlines the usage; and while certainly it will not suit everyone is its content (those who dont, and maybe rightly so, trust the government) there is nothing in there that says that the high level strategy of education will change direction from a traditional teaching focus (math, science, history, english, etc etc).

While it may fit under your definition of un-American (largely due to privacy concerns); there is nothing in the content that is un-Educational or pro-Indoctrination. To see that (if it exists) it must be part of the details/implementation by definition.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:03 pm

What is your definition of indoctrination, and what is the reason you think education in the USA is improving.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:08 pm

1. improve instruction and identify successful instructional programs within the State,
2. determine priorities for allocating scarce State and local resources,
3. devise methods for identifying effective teachers and teaching practices,
4. identify programs and pathways that encourage students to stay in school and enter postsecondary education,
5. determine whether high school graduates have the knowledge and skills to succeed in postsecondary education, the workforce, and the Armed Forces without the need for remediation,
6. strengthen the preparation of all students for success after high school,
7. provide accurate information about schools, school staff, and the progress of students, and
8. support accountability and public reporting.


Is this the first time these goals have ever been attempted in America?
What previous education programs did not seek to meet any one of these goals?

And I can't get over this weird feeling why I am asking these questions to someone who doesn't live in America and has zero experience in America's education system, and why I would. But I am willing to have it out cuz you are an okay guy and I think I have compiled plenty of evidence over the years to display. So, just curious, why are you so interested in American education, or do you just want to take on Phatscotty?

And I will remind you I only threw common core out there as an example of how the education system is becoming more and more centralized, one size fits all. Concerning indoctrination, that's what would be expected.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 07, 2013 8:12 pm

So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:19 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).


So, since the national policy goals are 100% the truth and there is no way it's bullshit.....The reinvestment act Lootifer sourced can be anything you want it to be. It's pretty clear by now all it was was a fix to keep states spending money they still don't have in hopes we could ride out the Great Recession without making cuts. I don't see anything in those goals that address homosexuality. But homosexuality in the classroom is part of common core. Tell me, which of those goals does that topic fit into?

BBS, why do you take the national policy goals as gospel? Just because they say those are the goals....those are the goals? Is it at all possible, that even if the goals are not just the standard bullshit everyone has to say when requesting hundreds of billions of dollars to support? Really, all those goals say is "It's for the kids, and it's good" Were those not the goals of no child left behind? What happened? It didn't work? Oh, but they had goals....

Sure we can move to the goals of the states. Can we also move to the goals of the teachers unions?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 07, 2013 8:22 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).


So, since the national policy goals are 100% the truth and there is no way it's bullshit.....

BBS, why do you take the national policy goals as gospel?


I'm not, but your claims require you to search in areas which do not confirm your claims--thus, the recommended rerouting to State education boards and their actions (not just their stated policies).

You could even examine--beyond the stated goals--the actions and outcomes of the National Education Board (whatever their exact name is) in order to make your point.

But... you're not doing any of this, so... what will your next move be?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:26 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).


So, since the national policy goals are 100% the truth and there is no way it's bullshit.....

BBS, why do you take the national policy goals as gospel?


I'm not, but your claims require you to search in areas which do not confirm your claims--thus, the recommended rerouting to State education boards and their actions (not just their stated policies).

You could even examine--beyond the stated goals--the actions and outcomes of the National Education Board (whatever their exact name is) in order to make your point.

But... you're not doing any of this, so... what will your next move be?


Wait, the stated goals of common core disprove my statement that universities indoctrinate political correctness?

Aren't you really saying "they say they don't"?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 07, 2013 8:33 pm

idk loot, this is getting screwy with 2 threads on basically the same thing This convo is perfectly able to be had in the thread in which it was started
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue May 07, 2013 9:08 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, since the national policy goals do not conform with PS' claims, perhaps he should move onto the policies and/or in particular the actions of educational boards within the States.

Texas is a good example (IIRC). Their board mandates Creationism to be taught in all public schools. Talk about indoctrination! (of course, to the Creationists, this isn't indoctrination... <cue ominous tune>).


So, since the national policy goals are 100% the truth and there is no way it's bullshit.....

BBS, why do you take the national policy goals as gospel?


I'm not, but your claims require you to search in areas which do not confirm your claims--thus, the recommended rerouting to State education boards and their actions (not just their stated policies).

You could even examine--beyond the stated goals--the actions and outcomes of the National Education Board (whatever their exact name is) in order to make your point.

But... you're not doing any of this, so... what will your next move be?


Wait, the stated goals of common core disprove my statement that universities indoctrinate political correctness?

Aren't you really saying "they say they don't"?


Based upon's Loot list of stated goals, I don't find enough evidence that supports your ever-shifting position (indoctrination, dominant Left, Common Core, political correctness).

Anyway, how about the actions and outcomes of those educational boards?

And, how are you going to correct for your sample bias?
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