Education in the USA

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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 4:26 am

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Well you would hope not.

Woodruff wrote:The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


It's literally baked into the course. You literally can't help that. History is the best example of bias within the course. Math, for the most part is math. But what and how history is covered makes all the difference. Frankly, history was crap in my day and it has become toxic waste today. I would expect that the average college student would totally fail the simple history test given in the 19th century to 8th graders.


There's a big difference between "teaching history with a liberal or conservative viewpoint" (which probably happens, as you say, depending on the author of the particular textbook) and "teaching history with conservative or liberal values". I don't at all believe that history is being taught with conservative or liberal values, and I certainly don't believe that history TEACHERS are (and it's ludicrous to think that teachers unions are) implementing this philosophy. Teachers what they're told to teach, and they really don't have time to put any "spin" on it.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 15, 2013 7:14 am

Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. .

Well, you sure are an example of anti-American values.. you seem to think the government is the people's enemy, not our servant.

in other words, you missed a BIG section of your basic government studies..the parts about how it actually works and WHY.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 4:28 pm

Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.

You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 4:35 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. .

Well, you sure are an example of anti-American values.. you seem to think the government is the people's enemy, not our servant.

in other words, you missed a BIG section of your basic government studies..the parts about how it actually works and WHY.


Player, the government can be the people's enemy, or our servent, or anywhere on a scale from 1-10 on either of those things. How can you even imply that, no matter how evil a leader may be, or how anti-American a leader may be, that they are still our servants?? You imply that no matter what they do, they are our servants. That is completely thoughtless and demands zero accountability. When people think like you do, is when corrupt leaders can most easily get away with whatever they want. Their people are ignorant.

I didn't miss anything, and I think you are missing a BIG section of common sense. Only one who worships big government and holds they can do no wrong could believe what you said, which is why at least I have always found you to be honest.

"When people fear their government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is Liberty" - Thomas Jefferson

You think Jefferson was anti-American too? If anything, can you at least realize that Jefferson is showing that the government can be either or, not always one or the other?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.
You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.


Given your views on...well, pretty much every subject I've seen you post on...I'm just going to go ahead and state that I firmly believe that was simply your own preconceptions being tied into what you expected them to be like and every time anything happened that could possibly support your view, you bought into it with all of the fervor you have for a Glen Beck video. The fact that so many of your teachers seemed to do so only supports that view. Your cognitive bias seems to so overwhelm you that it's ridiculous.

Oh, and...MATH is a subject that difficult it is difficult to politicize more than? Good Lord man, get help.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 10:13 pm

Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.

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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 12:52 am

Phatscotty wrote:Image


Different words, same nonsense.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby thegreekdog on Thu May 16, 2013 10:46 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.

You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.


Did they succeed in their attempts to indoctrinate you into their thinking?

I think many teachers and professors lean left (in my anecdotal experience... of which there is actually a lot).

So there are really two questions here:

- Is the federal government (or some other institution) directing the indoctrination of students into a certain viewpoint? There does not appear to be any proof of that in this thread or anywhere else, so I think we can safely answer no.

- If the answer to the first question is yes, has the indoctrination been successful or effective? I think we can also answer no to that question. You and I have both had left-leaning teachers and professors and we remain staunchly anti-left.

Moderators, since those were rhetorical questions that have effectively ended debate in this thread, this thread can now be locked. Thanks!
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 16, 2013 11:27 am

Phatscotty wrote:Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.


But you prove that I could be more wrong than I am every time you post.

Phatscotty wrote:If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.


You have a major malfunction here. Logic doesn't care about religion. Religion is irrelevant to logic.

If YOU are really serious about this topic, you would actually educate yourself.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 16, 2013 7:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.


But you prove that I could be more wrong than I am every time you post.

Phatscotty wrote:If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.


You have a major malfunction here. Logic doesn't care about religion. Religion is irrelevant to logic.

If YOU are really serious about this topic, you would actually educate yourself.


Greekdog, can I get a ruling on Woodruffs' debate style?

I want to learn
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 7:24 pm

Sorry just had a look at the last few posts and tears are rolling down my face with laughter at the "fact" that the christian right feels attacked by logic. Next thing I'll be reading is that the persecution of proud American christians is proved by the fact the government hasn't switched everyone over to speaking ancient Hebrew, the language of our Lord Jesus Christ! :lol:
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 16, 2013 7:27 pm

That's a lot of conclusion jumping based on a false premise to being with. But I know those things crack you up

more evidencez
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby thegreekdog on Fri May 17, 2013 7:02 am

Phatscotty wrote:Greekdog, can I get a ruling on Woodruffs' debate style?


No. You have questions to answer (rhetorical though they may be).

Phatscotty wrote:I want to learn


I'm not convinced that you want to learn and I certainly don't want to be accused of indoctrinating you.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby crispybits on Fri May 17, 2013 8:18 am

Phatscotty wrote:That's a lot of conclusion jumping based on a false premise to being with. But I know those things crack you up


Hey you're the one that said it. "Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked."

Them damn logicians with their supersets and subsets, their predicates and sillyjisms and apist... apostemalogical arguments, they're persecuting our true and proud christian values. We are under attack from those who have the arrogance to question our obviously totally infallibull arguments by calling the bible circular! Are they stoooopid or something, I have a bible right here and it's clearly rectangular! Them damn logicians don't believe in the power of God, they's all atheests or muslims or something, commies and enemies of 'Murica to the last man! Freedom of (christian) religion dammit!!
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 12:53 am

so anyways, Woodruff was saying that because a math class is a math class, there is no way politics can enter the class, because it's a math class.

but, if you wanted to see how it really is, and not just listen to Woodruffs imagination talking, you would see teachers from all fields say they were required to give each class 5 minute "current events" lectures daily. Obviously, what kind of class it is has nothing at all to do with the ability for it to be an opportunity to indoctrinate. It just shows another way that Woodruff cannot even begin to see the conversation correctly.

yuh, Crispy, you got yourself a joke there, but it's out of context. I'm not really interested in it other than to say that's what happened in my logic class.

Crispy, opinion: Is religion Logical?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 12:55 am

Phatscotty wrote:That's a lot of conclusion jumping based on a false premise to being with.


You mean your premise that religion is being attacked?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 12:57 am

Get the education you missed!
FREEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 1:03 am

Phatscotty wrote:so anyways, Woodruff was saying that because a math class is a math class, there is no way politics can enter the class, because it's a math class.


Actually, that's really not what I said, though I can certainly see why you would want to pretend that it was. To anyone actually paying attention, it was clear that I was speaking of the idea that the math teacher (as a general occurrence) was teaching either liberal or conservative values. I stand by that statement. The math teacher simply does not have time to bother with that.

I know you like to throw your personal ancedotes around like they're facts, but honestly I don't think anyone believes what you're saying about your logic class anyway. I certainly don't.

Phatscotty wrote:but, if you wanted to see how it really is, and not just listen to Woodruffs imagination talking, you would see teachers from all fields say they were required to give each class 5 minute "current events" lectures daily.


This is your proof that liberal values are permeating our classrooms? The fact that current events are discussed?

Phatscotty wrote:Obviously, what kind of class it is has nothing at all to do with the ability for it to be an opportunity to indoctrinate. It just shows another way that Woodruff cannot even begin to see the conversation correctly.


You never did explain how my hard-core Fox-news-watching Mormon conservative co-teacher and I could possibly discuss current events in complete harmony while advancing our curriculum exactly as expected by our Principal, our Superintendent and the Air Force. How could that be possible, if what you say is true, Phatscotty? Were you going to, or is just another thing that you ignore in your desperation to score points?

By the way, aren't I foed? Wanting to hit the Baker's Dozen, are you?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 1:10 am

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:so anyways, Woodruff was saying that because a math class is a math class, there is no way politics can enter the class, because it's a math class.


Actually, that's really not what I said, though I can certainly see why you would want to pretend that it was. To anyone actually paying attention, it was clear that I was speaking of the idea that the math teacher (as a general occurrence) was teaching either liberal or conservative values. I stand by that statement. The math teacher simply does not have time to bother with that.


I already posted a clip of a math teacher who was instructed to make time, 5 minutes, everyday....Go ahead and stand by your statement. All you are standing by is a steaming pile of bullshit.

clearly, there is no time...... :roll: Do you ever listen to yourself???


How is it that you speak for the time of every teacher in America? Fascinating the dribble you utter, even in the face of evidence of which you clearly ignored. See why you are such a waste of time? I've never seen anything like this in my life, and I would be stupid to keep going on with a fool such as yourself.

Go back and look at the evidence, and let that math teacher smack it right in your face. Then come back and talk something else out of your ass.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 1:17 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:so anyways, Woodruff was saying that because a math class is a math class, there is no way politics can enter the class, because it's a math class.


Actually, that's really not what I said, though I can certainly see why you would want to pretend that it was. To anyone actually paying attention, it was clear that I was speaking of the idea that the math teacher (as a general occurrence) was teaching either liberal or conservative values. I stand by that statement. The math teacher simply does not have time to bother with that.


You are insane. I already posted a clip of a math teacher who was instructed to make time, 5 minutes, everyday....


I understand that you have difficulty following the context of a thread, but I would have thought that you'd have the ability to follow the context of a single post. It's interesting that you apparently cannot.

Phatscotty wrote:clearly, there is no time...... :roll: Do you ever listen to yourself???


You should really try to get some self-awareness.

Phatscotty wrote:How is it that you speak for the time of every teacher in America?


I didn't speak for the time of every teacher in America. This thread is not about every individual teacher in America. This thread is about teachers in general and whether there is some liberal conspiracy to subvert our children to progressive thinking, which is precisely what my postings have been in reference to. You are the only one who seems to believe that anecdotal statements about some alleged professor you had equate to this liberal conspiracy.

Phatscotty wrote:Fascinating the dribble you utter, even in the face of evidence of which you clearly ignored.


Evidence? I don't believe you actually understand what the term "evidence" entails. In fact, I'm quite certain of it.

Phatscotty wrote:See why you are such a waste of time? I've never seen anything like this in my life, and I would be stupid to keep going on with a fool such as yourself.


You really should try to find some self-awareness.

Phatscotty wrote:Go back and look at the evidence, and let that math teacher smack it right in your face. Then come back and talk something else out of your ass.


Or, alternatively, you could actually discuss the issue that's been talked about by the adults in the thread. You know you don't have to sit at the kiddie table all by yourself. You could join us from time to time.

By the way, aren't I foed? Wanting to hit the Baker's Dozen, are you?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby crispybits on Sat May 18, 2013 3:30 am

Phatscotty wrote:yuh, Crispy, you got yourself a joke there, but it's out of context. I'm not really interested in it other than to say that's what happened in my logic class.

Crispy, opinion: Is religion Logical?


Religion is perfectly logical once you assume faith. Faith is illogical by definition, because it's belief without evidence. However that misses the point entirely.

1) In a logic class logic should be taught. A logic teacher should be allowed to use any real world analogies they like, as long as the reasons for those analogies are to teach about what logic says about the forms of argument. A logic class is not a place where we should be learning about what biology, french language or religion says, beyond analysing the logical structures of those subjects as part of lessons about logical forms.

2) You did not say "religion is attacked", you said that "the christian right is attacked". The christian right is a movement that wants to conflate religion and politics. The clue is in the name, christian (religion) right (politics). There are many lines of criticism that could be aimed at that movement that have nothing to do with religious claims and everything to do with the logical nonsensicality of a group trying to enforce their particular flavour of religious rules on everyone, including those of other/no religion, by force of secular law.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby waauw on Sat May 18, 2013 5:31 am

Phatscotty wrote:Get the education you missed!
FREEEEEEEEEEEEE!



you call that education? I went to that website of prageruniversity and the first vid I clicked on about the seperation of church and state was pure christian propaganda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vmZPMRCBhU#!

The website claims that the USA may not have a separation of church and state because the founding fathers didn't design it so. Seriously, what is it with you americans and thinking that your founding fathers were unable to make mistakes? What makes ever single one of their words so holy? They were human weren't they?

The guy just failed to address what has happened in history in countries where church and state weren't seperated. Here in europe the vatican used to rule countries together with the royal families and if anyone dared speak out against christianism they were tortured and executed. Now I have to admit that this doesn't always happen. Nevertheless it's what the seperation of church and state in europe is for. It is a measure to prevent religious persecutions.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby tzor on Sat May 18, 2013 11:00 am

Woodruff wrote:If you agree that it is "the norm today" for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values, then you are quite simply ignorant. There is no other way to put it, frankly. I am stunned to even see these sorts of statements typed out they're so far from reality.

But I am curious...exactly which anti-American values are you referring to, that are being taught so plainly in our high schools? Let's get into some specifics.


I do want to point out that "anti" means displaying opposite characteristics. It doesn't imply that "anti-American" values "hate" America or take American values in to the back room and mugs them.

American values are (or should be) derived from the adoption of the values of the Age of Enlightenment in the late 18th century. It is based on inalienable rights and the limited role of government to assure these rights to all (the fact that this in theory never happened in practice is besides the point; nothing in theory happens in practice and any system that thinks otherwise is doomed to failure).

The modern value system that is taught in the schools these days derives from the progressive era that really started in the late 19th century. It is derived from an European mindset that government should provide the means to "free" us from our problems. Jefferson's "inalienable rights" are the polar opposite of Roosevelt's four freedoms.

In short, our original values depended on equality of opportunity, while the modern progressive system depends on equality of results. "Everyone gets a trophy."

Woodruff wrote:I would suggest that how he was treated had more to do with "Vietnam vet" than his having been in the military or his being a "gun nut" or anything else, given the high incidence of PTSD and how poorly it was treated for so long that came from that era. That plus general misunderstanding and ignorance of PTSD.


To put this in a different context, are you suggesting that we had no gay people in this country until they came out of the closet? The fact is that PTSD is not really "new." We just now see it for what it is. Many WWII veterans had symptoms that would have been described as PTSD. WWI veterans had them even worse, because that war was closer to that of the modern wars in terms of duration and combat fatigue.

But it was the fact that he was familiar with guns because he was a vet that scared them, not because he was a gun not (he wasn't really a gun nut). Vietnam is an interesting example. Few people who opposed fighting wars hated the people who fought them; merely the people who ordered them. The anger towards the Vietnam War was directed to the soldier; they hated him more than they hated the war. Never before had a nation so vilified the people who were drafted by the government to mess up their lives against their will. But the "Hippy" era took over the campuses after the war and such values have flooded the modern education system we have in public schools today.

I have a feeling that had he been a First Gulf War veteran the same thing would have applied. It's assumed that they don't let "those people" teach their children. So veterans have to "hide in the closet" to get teaching positions.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby tzor on Sat May 18, 2013 11:12 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Well, you sure are an example of anti-American values.. you seem to think the government is the people's enemy, not our servant.


No, you are the one who is misguided. The traditional "American" view of government was to compare it to fire. It is both necessary and dangerous at the same time. It needs "power" to function, but power in turn corrupts. The founding fathers, especially those who wrote and debated the constitution, knew this problem well. They argued that if men were angels, no government would be necessary and if men were governed by angels, no restraint on government would be needed. But since neither is the case, there must be a balance to prevent things from getting out of hand. The fire is nice in the fireplace, but it really desires to burn the whole house down.

The whole notion of "government as servant" is a progressive attitude, made possible by the monk like bureaucrat. Such people don't exist; angels do not govern us. They are instead a group of people with a common interest; to remain blissfully employed along with all the perks and powers therein. Checks and balances were important in order to keep factions constantly in check. The progressive model did away with all of that and we now live in the result.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 11:16 am

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:If you agree that it is "the norm today" for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values, then you are quite simply ignorant. There is no other way to put it, frankly. I am stunned to even see these sorts of statements typed out they're so far from reality.

But I am curious...exactly which anti-American values are you referring to, that are being taught so plainly in our high schools? Let's get into some specifics.


I do want to point out that "anti" means displaying opposite characteristics. It doesn't imply that "anti-American" values "hate" America or take American values in to the back room and mugs them.


That's not how I believe the term was being used, and I don't believe you think that either, but ok...we'll roll with that.

tzor wrote:American values are (or should be) derived from the adoption of the values of the Age of Enlightenment in the late 18th century. It is based on inalienable rights and the limited role of government to assure these rights to all (the fact that this in theory never happened in practice is besides the point; nothing in theory happens in practice and any system that thinks otherwise is doomed to failure).


American values are whatever values Americans in general believe they should be. HOPEFULLY, American values are malleable over time as we educate ourselves on how to treat others, else we would be valuing slavery, inequality and the irradication of Indians.

tzor wrote:The modern value system that is taught in the schools these days derives from the progressive era that really started in the late 19th century. It is derived from an European mindset that government should provide the means to "free" us from our problems.


American high schools really don't teach students that the government is there to free them from their problems. In fact, I find such an idea laughable.

tzor wrote:In short, our original values depended on equality of opportunity


Equality of opportunity? The hell it does. "Our original values" depended on the equality of opportunity among white males.

tzor wrote:while the modern progressive system depends on equality of results. "Everyone gets a trophy."


I haven't seen ANYTHING in high schools that runs to "equality of results" other than "No Child Left Behind" (which, you may recall, I am firmly against). High schools do not play the "everyone gets a trophy" game, nor do universities.

Woodruff wrote:I would suggest that how he was treated had more to do with "Vietnam vet" than his having been in the military or his being a "gun nut" or anything else, given the high incidence of PTSD and how poorly it was treated for so long that came from that era. That plus general misunderstanding and ignorance of PTSD.


To put this in a different context, are you suggesting that we had no gay people in this country until they came out of the closet?[/quote]

Huh? I have no idea at all what you're trying to get at here.

tzor wrote:The fact is that PTSD is not really "new." We just now see it for what it is.


I am well aware of that. It seems odd to me that you would think I don't, given my background.

tzor wrote:But it was the fact that he was familiar with guns because he was a vet that scared them, not because he was a gun not (he wasn't really a gun nut).


You read the guy's mind, then, and determined why the vet scared him? Or is this just the impression that the Vietnam vet gained, and how he passed it on to you. I find it very unlikely that another adult would be that scared of someone just because they know how to handle a weapon. I don't know ANY adults, teacher or not, who would have such a view of things.

tzor wrote:Vietnam is an interesting example. Few people who opposed fighting wars hated the people who fought them; merely the people who ordered them. The anger towards the Vietnam War was directed to the soldier; they hated him more than they hated the war. Never before had a nation so vilified the people who were drafted by the government to mess up their lives against their will.


I agree. That's why my contention is that perhaps it was the appellation of "Vietnam vet" (and the resultant fear of "they're gonna lose it", as irrational as that is) that so bothered the other individual, rather than the fact they were good at handling weapons.

tzor wrote:But the "Hippy" era took over the campuses after the war and such values have flooded the modern education system we have in public schools today.


So now we're teaching students to villify the military? Any idea how popular Junior ROTC is in the high schools? Principals and school boards LOVE Junior ROTC, because it provides things for their students that many times they don't get elsewhere.

tzor wrote:I have a feeling that had he been a First Gulf War veteran the same thing would have applied. It's assumed that they don't let "those people" teach their children. So veterans have to "hide in the closet" to get teaching positions.


This is truly not even remotely the case. In fact, I have to go back to my statement regarding ignorance.
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