Education in the USA

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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sun May 12, 2013 8:06 pm

Lootifer wrote:lets assume that the class size ranges from what? 20-100?


20-100? Egad, don't give them any ideas. <grin>

More like 15-35 per class, I would guess.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Sun May 12, 2013 10:29 pm

You never attended like Econ101 or Math101 or some other popular class where you sat in a lecture theater of 100+ students?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sun May 12, 2013 10:39 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Hell no!! LOL

There is a major amount of political idealogy indoctrination in the US education system. I have seen it myself, and not just one time or in one school, but many times in every school I've been in.

There is a high proportion of liberal instructors. We haven't got into teachers unions yet, but that is one of the sources. My best friends wife is a teacher, and she gets the union mail out every month, and inside there are specific instructions on how to teach children about the wonders of Leftism, and how to deal with and oppress Conservative ideas. There are also specific instructions to "teach" children how to vote the "right" way.

There is a growing number of people who are not indoctrinated that are pointing out data in order to recognize a political agenda of Leftism that is and has been shoved down the throat of millions of students.

also, there is a minority of people who have not went through the US education system, have no first hand evidence or examples or experience, are not surrounded by people who can confirm this based on their own first hand experiences, and willingly dismiss all evidence contrary to what they want to believe. They are also usually people who do not live in America


Firstly we need to see evidence of the underlined.

Secondly lets run through your evidence to get a feel for how representative it is of the overall education system. We'll have to use high level assumptions but that should be fine to get a feel for how representative your sample is (i.e. how big the sample size is).

There are roughly 14.6 million full time students. Lets say that they take what 5-10 papers/classes per year? With 2-5 classes per week? Thats between 300-1500 classes per year per student; lets assume that the class size ranges from what? 20-100?

All works out to roughly 44-1095 million classes (nice range due to hugely variable assumptions, but thats fine). Lets be pessimestic and take the lower end of the assumptions. 44 million classes per year.

Say you have ample evidence that you can keep turning out. Say its 50-100 professors indoctrinating in 50-100 classes (lets say you only video tape the worst 10% or something). Thats 2500-10000 indoctrinating classes (lets say you only video tape the worst 1% or something meaning you should be able to find 25 clips of lessons quite easily). Thats 0.006-0.023% of all classes are indoctrinating with some very indoctrination favourable assumptions

For reference: To be convinved of a serious issue I would want to see at least 1% of classes showing serious forms of indoctrination. That would mean each year there should be 438000 classes where serious indoctrination is occuring. If this was the case I think you would have slightly more focus on the topic (rather than one bias research book, and a handful of activist websites).


I respect your willingness to have an honest conversation with honor.

I can get that underlined for ya. Of course what I was specifically referencing (the teachers union mailout my best friends wife gets every month) was at the height of the election of 2012.....but I'm confident I can pick something out of that mailer every month. I haven't been challenged like this since I had to take a photo of my Champion jackets from a decade of union softball tournaments to prove I was a union member.

for example, the the largest teachers union (National Education Association) gave 20 times more money (95% of 44 mil) to Democrats than the Koch brothers (95% of 2.2 mil) gave to Republicans total. (American Federation of teachers 35 mil). along with many other teachers unions, it's average for them to give 95% to Democrats.

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Can you concede a couple of things, just as a base to start from? Sorry if you already have, as there has been some double threading going on and plenty of disruptions and chaos and derailing from other posters, but here are some things...

#1) that teachers unions, by political affiliation and campaign contributions, are dominated by Democrats
#2) that public schools are dependent on public money, and therefore are always going to support (and promote, which is key) whoever offers the most money (Democrats)

Also, our classes usually top out around 30-35. They can get bigger at some major universities, but at mine they were never bigger than 50 in rare cases. 100? Hmm, I'm sure there are some that big
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sun May 12, 2013 11:06 pm

As an aside, I bet common core is talked about at this meeting

http://www.wbtw.com/story/22217297/bill ... -sc-island

CHARLESTON, SC -

Bill Gates, Chairman of Microsoft and one of the richest people in the world, is spending time in the Lowcountry.

WCBD confirmed the American business magnate is at the Sanctuary on Kiawah Island.

Suspicion was raised when nearly 20 very expensive jets were seen lined up at the Charleston International Airport on Johns Island.

Officials with the Beach Company confirmed to WCBD that other big names such as New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, TV host Oprah Winfrey and Billionaire Warren Buffet flew into the Charleston Executive airport on Johns Island Wednesday night.

Other prominent people said to also be staying there this weekend are Jeb Bush and Dan Gilbert, owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Sun May 12, 2013 11:15 pm

#1 Arent unions predominantly left wing entities? So likely you are correct. I am not much of a union fan as I personally believe there are better avenues in modern society in which to protect the worker...

#2 How do public schools themselves have any political leverage? What you say is obviously correct but I dont see how this democratic support is relevant to the discussion. I believe you when you say things like the majority of university teachers are liberals or whatever but again this does not convert into left wing indoctrination
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sun May 12, 2013 11:23 pm

Of course it's relevant. What we have here is the fact that the system is heavily dominated by people who vote for Democrats. Sure, that does not prove that there is indoctrination. I'm not building my case around this either. It's jsut the very tip of the starting point. But, if there was indoctrination, you would expect to find the system dominated by one ideology, right? So let's explore that environment, in the teachers lounge, at the union meetings, preparing for PTA meetings, school councils. We still know it's true there are hardly any Conservatives involved with any of that,the thinking, the perspectives, the jargon, the direction they collectively try to move a student or parents or an education board, is about as linear as it can get. Right? Do you at least concede, concerning the number of Liberal teachers, they are most likely not teaching Conservative values, and probably not accurately describing Conservative values, and as I have shown, many times, actively mock and attack Conservatives and Conservative values in the classroom.

Just take it one thing at a time, pleas don't jump to conclusions. Just laying the groundwork.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 13, 2013 1:14 am

Lootifer wrote:You never attended like Econ101 or Math101 or some other popular class where you sat in a lecture theater of 100+ students?


Sorry, I was thinking more in terms of high school. My bad.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 13, 2013 1:29 am

Phatscotty wrote:So let's explore that environment, in the teachers lounge, at the union meetings, preparing for PTA meetings, school councils.


You want know what we talk about in the teachers' lounge? We talk about how Dylan isn't particularly smart, but he sure works hard. We talk about how Jeff is lazy and how can we possibly get him to complete and turn in his homework. We wonder why Jane has missed the last week and a half of school and we hope she's ok. We talk about "what do you do in class to make historical segments of your material less boring?". It sure as hell isn't about politics or how we can indoctrinate kids. It's laughable that you think we even might EVER have either of those conversations you're implying.

Union meetings are bore-fests that have nothing to do with indoctrinating anything, other than perhaps whether we should lobby to have our class sizes adjusted or are our principals supportive enough in giving us some flexibility in the classroom. Again, nothing of the things you are intimating. Even the union flyers/emails I get are just reminders of things like "get your vaccinations up to date" or "hey, here's a $25 discount at the mall because we love teachers!" or "don't forget to go vote (with no mention of who we should vote for at all)" or "hey, don't forget that Sunday is Mother's Day!" (yeah, I actually got that one last week).

I haven't been to any PTA meetings, frankly, so I can't speak with much authority there. But I cannot possibly imagine that Nebraska's HIGHLY-CONSERVATIVE parents would be very interested in listening to thoughts on how teachers can indoctrinate their kids into the liberal philosophy. It's hilarious that you think a PTA meeting might be such a venue.

School councils...you mean like student councils? Or are you referring to something else, that I would know by a different term?

Phatscotty wrote:We still know it's true there are hardly any Conservatives involved with any of that,the thinking, the perspectives, the jargon, the direction they collectively try to move a student or parents or an education board, is about as linear as it can get. Right?


No. Not right. At all.

Phatscotty wrote:Do you at least concede, concerning the number of Liberal teachers, they are most likely not teaching Conservative values, and probably not accurately describing Conservative values, and as I have shown, many times, actively mock and attack Conservatives and Conservative values in the classroom.


That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The civics teacher, whether you want to believe it or not, isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. Everyone is teaching their curriculum as it is described in an effort to get the students ready for their mandated testing, as testing is what the teaching world sadly revolves around now. Hell, I probably have more affect on the students as far as "values" go than most teachers in the school, because I have the ability to be flexible in my curriculum (no federal or state standards, only USAF standards, yay!), and the extent of my "teaching values" are self-discipline, respect for yourself and others, and community service is a good thing. That's pretty much it. There is no time for teaching any conservative or liberal bias, there is no time for trying to convince kids to ignore what their parents say, there is no time for trying to steal the kids soul and sell it to Satan. There's no time for all of this bullshit that you want to pretend is happening in our schools.

Phatscotty wrote:Just take it one thing at a time, pleas don't jump to conclusions. Just laying the groundwork.


Your "groundwork" is all sand. Why don't you try to pour a little concrete instead?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Lootifer on Mon May 13, 2013 2:45 am

Haha what are you talking about Woodruff, my mum used to come home from teaching all day and marked that days conquests on her "Converted to the Liberal Agenda" chalk board! We all went out for dinner at the end of the week if she got her union allocated quota!
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue May 14, 2013 4:10 pm

Phattscotty's REAL problem is that schools are not indoctrinating students to think like him.

"Thinking" to Phattscotty means reciting what he believes.. nothing else.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby tzor on Tue May 14, 2013 8:51 pm

Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. Their aim is to teach students what to think, and not how to think. So far I have showed you a lot of clips from the last couple weeks where teachers and schools are putting the entire student body through a bunch of extreme experiences concerning even the mention of the word gun, or biting a pop tart into a gun shape, or pointing a pencil at someone and saying "bang bang", or wearing a second amendment t-shirt. All of those children are learning to be scared of something that is their constitutional right. Those are all great examples of how fear is used to control.


I agree and yet I disagree at the same time.

I really agree with the first sentence. I'm not sure that the gun case is an example. I think it is more of an outward manifestation of an inward political bias. Let's back up a few years before the incident last year. I knew someone who was a teacher. There was an incident with a student and a gun. Being a Vietnam Vet he handled the situation and relieved the student of the gun without incident. The faculty was happy and curious at how well he had handled the situation. He mentioned his experience as a Vietnam Vet. From that moment on (because he didn't discuss it before) they effectively effectively blacklisted him. Why? Because they basically feared him (outward manifestation of an inward bias). It wasn't a part of some complex plot, because he was neither pushing an agenda nor resisting one, but a pure example of an irrational fear.

So it's not really a case of a deliberate attempt to isolate boys from traditional mock combat play (in this case through mock guns) but a real inward irrational fear of "gun nuts."

The second amendment t-shirt is more complex, as that is an attempt to "control" speech. But then again, I used to go to Catholic Schools with uniforms.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby tzor on Tue May 14, 2013 8:56 pm

Lootifer wrote:You never attended like Econ101 or Math101 or some other popular class where you sat in a lecture theater of 100+ students?


Freshman courses (at least in R.P.I.) was divided into the lecture time and the class session time; the later would be more like the 25-30 student range. This only occurred in Freshman courses because most of the Freshman class had to take that course and having the common lecture saved on resources. While the lecturer was in charge of the teaching assistants used in the smaller classes, he wasn't responsible for all of the students in the classes.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby tzor on Tue May 14, 2013 9:04 pm

Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Well you would hope not.

Woodruff wrote:The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


It's literally baked into the course. You literally can't help that. History is the best example of bias within the course. Math, for the most part is math. But what and how history is covered makes all the difference. Frankly, history was crap in my day and it has become toxic waste today. I would expect that the average college student would totally fail the simple history test given in the 19th century to 8th graders.

Woodruff wrote:Everyone is teaching their curriculum as it is described in an effort to get the students ready for their mandated testing, as testing is what the teaching world sadly revolves around now.


I think this is one area where we probably agree. We are teaching to much "to the test" and not as much "beyond the test."

So, what is your opinion on "common core?"
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 4:19 am

tzor wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. Their aim is to teach students what to think, and not how to think. So far I have showed you a lot of clips from the last couple weeks where teachers and schools are putting the entire student body through a bunch of extreme experiences concerning even the mention of the word gun, or biting a pop tart into a gun shape, or pointing a pencil at someone and saying "bang bang", or wearing a second amendment t-shirt. All of those children are learning to be scared of something that is their constitutional right. Those are all great examples of how fear is used to control.


I agree and yet I disagree at the same time.

I really agree with the first sentence.


If you agree that it is "the norm today" for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values, then you are quite simply ignorant. There is no other way to put it, frankly. I am stunned to even see these sorts of statements typed out they're so far from reality.

But I am curious...exactly which anti-American values are you referring to, that are being taught so plainly in our high schools? Let's get into some specifics.

tzor wrote:I'm not sure that the gun case is an example. I think it is more of an outward manifestation of an inward political bias. Let's back up a few years before the incident last year. I knew someone who was a teacher. There was an incident with a student and a gun. Being a Vietnam Vet he handled the situation and relieved the student of the gun without incident. The faculty was happy and curious at how well he had handled the situation. He mentioned his experience as a Vietnam Vet. From that moment on (because he didn't discuss it before) they effectively effectively blacklisted him. Why? Because they basically feared him (outward manifestation of an inward bias). It wasn't a part of some complex plot, because he was neither pushing an agenda nor resisting one, but a pure example of an irrational fear.


As a 23-year veteran of the military who teaches a class on Air Force Junior ROTC and has taught it in three different public high schools (so obviously it's well known that I was in the military long enough for me to have retired), I have never felt ostracized by my fellow teachers, nor have I felt feared by them. In speaking with my fellow Junior ROTC teachers, I don't believe it happens in their schools either. I can't think of a SINGLE FELLOW TEACHER who has even hinted to me that they felt uncomfortable around me.

I would suggest that how he was treated had more to do with "Vietnam vet" than his having been in the military or his being a "gun nut" or anything else, given the high incidence of PTSD and how poorly it was treated for so long that came from that era. That plus general misunderstanding and ignorance of PTSD.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 4:23 am

tzor wrote:So, what is your opinion on "common core?"


Unfortunately, I don't really know much about it. I've heard the term, and seen advertisements for it (teachers get ALL KINDS of spam email). I am curious about it, but since our school district hasn't really (as far as I know) been looking to move in that direction, I haven't really taken the time to explore it.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 4:26 am

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Well you would hope not.

Woodruff wrote:The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


It's literally baked into the course. You literally can't help that. History is the best example of bias within the course. Math, for the most part is math. But what and how history is covered makes all the difference. Frankly, history was crap in my day and it has become toxic waste today. I would expect that the average college student would totally fail the simple history test given in the 19th century to 8th graders.


There's a big difference between "teaching history with a liberal or conservative viewpoint" (which probably happens, as you say, depending on the author of the particular textbook) and "teaching history with conservative or liberal values". I don't at all believe that history is being taught with conservative or liberal values, and I certainly don't believe that history TEACHERS are (and it's ludicrous to think that teachers unions are) implementing this philosophy. Teachers what they're told to teach, and they really don't have time to put any "spin" on it.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 15, 2013 7:14 am

Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. .

Well, you sure are an example of anti-American values.. you seem to think the government is the people's enemy, not our servant.

in other words, you missed a BIG section of your basic government studies..the parts about how it actually works and WHY.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 4:28 pm

Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.

You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 4:35 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:It's the norm today, in America, for schools to teach and train students to have anti-American values and indoctrinate them in political correctness. .

Well, you sure are an example of anti-American values.. you seem to think the government is the people's enemy, not our servant.

in other words, you missed a BIG section of your basic government studies..the parts about how it actually works and WHY.


Player, the government can be the people's enemy, or our servent, or anywhere on a scale from 1-10 on either of those things. How can you even imply that, no matter how evil a leader may be, or how anti-American a leader may be, that they are still our servants?? You imply that no matter what they do, they are our servants. That is completely thoughtless and demands zero accountability. When people think like you do, is when corrupt leaders can most easily get away with whatever they want. Their people are ignorant.

I didn't miss anything, and I think you are missing a BIG section of common sense. Only one who worships big government and holds they can do no wrong could believe what you said, which is why at least I have always found you to be honest.

"When people fear their government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is Liberty" - Thomas Jefferson

You think Jefferson was anti-American too? If anything, can you at least realize that Jefferson is showing that the government can be either or, not always one or the other?
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.
You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.


Given your views on...well, pretty much every subject I've seen you post on...I'm just going to go ahead and state that I firmly believe that was simply your own preconceptions being tied into what you expected them to be like and every time anything happened that could possibly support your view, you bought into it with all of the fervor you have for a Glen Beck video. The fact that so many of your teachers seemed to do so only supports that view. Your cognitive bias seems to so overwhelm you that it's ridiculous.

Oh, and...MATH is a subject that difficult it is difficult to politicize more than? Good Lord man, get help.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 15, 2013 10:13 pm

Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.

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Re: Education in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 12:52 am

Phatscotty wrote:Image


Different words, same nonsense.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby thegreekdog on Thu May 16, 2013 10:46 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That's just it, Phatscotty. The math teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values. The history teacher isn't teaching conservative OR liberal values.


Those are flat out lies. My Logic professor pushed Atheism and Liberalism every single class. My American History professor had an extreme Leftist view of history and had a giant Yassir Arafat picture on the wall. The worst I have personally seen came from my English Professor and my political science professor. It was the same guy, and it didn't matter what class he took.

You could have blindly chosen 2 different subjects that are far harder to politicize, had you put any thought into that whatsoever.


Did they succeed in their attempts to indoctrinate you into their thinking?

I think many teachers and professors lean left (in my anecdotal experience... of which there is actually a lot).

So there are really two questions here:

- Is the federal government (or some other institution) directing the indoctrination of students into a certain viewpoint? There does not appear to be any proof of that in this thread or anywhere else, so I think we can safely answer no.

- If the answer to the first question is yes, has the indoctrination been successful or effective? I think we can also answer no to that question. You and I have both had left-leaning teachers and professors and we remain staunchly anti-left.

Moderators, since those were rhetorical questions that have effectively ended debate in this thread, this thread can now be locked. Thanks!
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 16, 2013 11:27 am

Phatscotty wrote:Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.


But you prove that I could be more wrong than I am every time you post.

Phatscotty wrote:If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.


You have a major malfunction here. Logic doesn't care about religion. Religion is irrelevant to logic.

If YOU are really serious about this topic, you would actually educate yourself.
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Re: Education in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 16, 2013 7:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Logic is a math class..... It's the #1 most likely class where the Christian right is attacked. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.


But you prove that I could be more wrong than I am every time you post.

Phatscotty wrote:If you are really serious about this topic, you will watch this evidence, and then discuss.


You have a major malfunction here. Logic doesn't care about religion. Religion is irrelevant to logic.

If YOU are really serious about this topic, you would actually educate yourself.


Greekdog, can I get a ruling on Woodruffs' debate style?

I want to learn
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