Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

[Woodruff]

The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

First of all, how is it any better or worse?

Secondly, you say this as if you're trying to imply this was commonly done throughout the schools, as is becoming more and more common with the Pledge.

[Woodruff]

When I was at school in the US I just stood up during the pledge without speaking.

Nothing wrong with that at all. It shows respect for those around you and what they're doing, but without requiring that you comply.

[notyou2]

The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

What is this of which you write?

[Woodruff]

The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

What is this of which you write?

When Obama was elected (I think), some dumbass teacher had her students singing the praises of Obama at school. It was videotaped and, as you might expect, the Foxophiles all went up in arms.

I don't have a link, but it's nothing that matters in the slightest way to anything, to be honest. Much ado about nothing.

[Haggis_McMutton]

I'm not sure I understand the problem. Just move to a country you like enough to want your kids to sing a song about. Or conversely there are probably countries in Africa or South America with less school. You could teach them just the things you feel like.

I don't like any country enough to want kids to be told to daily recite a poem praising said country. (I'm having trouble even imagining a country I could like that much).

I have nothing against them being taught the anthem in school. After being taught said anthem then they can presumably spend 1 hour a day mindlessly reciting it in their free time if they're so inclined.

[PLAYER57832]

The kids don't pay ANY attention to the words they're saying...they're just repeating them.

That's the truth right there. I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance when I was in Kindergarten. I had no idea what "indivisible", "republic", or "allegiance" meant. I had a very loose grasp on what exactly America stood for in general. It accomplishes nothing outside of making kids look like creepy, chanting cultists for 15 seconds.

I once saw 2 segments... maybe an old "Candid Camera" slot, one had the kids saying "the pledge of allegience", massacred in all sorts of funny ways, the other had them trying to explain what they thought the words meant. It was pretty funny. I wish I could find it again.

[PLAYER57832]

The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

Example?

[Phatscotty]

The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

What is this of which you write?

[tzor]

Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?

Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.

[PLAYER57832]

I like it. It's a positive kind of indoctrination. Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.

What is positive about it? If they're not paying any attention to the words anyway, they're really NOT being indoctrinated. Essentially, it is a waste of a teacher's classroom time. Which they have little enough of as it is. Which means they're less effective. Which is what Phatscotty complains about.

So I would suggest to you that the Pledge of Allegience is actually a DETRIMENT, not a positive.

I actually disagree here.

Yes, the words are meaningless.. and of course, as you stated kids should be free to just stand or step outside the room quietly. (we had some Jehovah's witness in my school who did that, it sometimes engendered discussion with all the "nuance" of sixth grade certainties, but the teachers always made clear it was a personal religious issue).

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter. I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.

Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.

[Nobunaga]

I like it. It's a positive kind of indoctrination. Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.

What is positive about it? If they're not paying any attention to the words anyway, they're really NOT being indoctrinated. Essentially, it is a waste of a teacher's classroom time. Which they have little enough of as it is. Which means they're less effective. Which is what Phatscotty complains about.

So I would suggest to you that the Pledge of Allegience is actually a DETRIMENT, not a positive.

I actually disagree here.

Yes, the words are meaningless.. and of course, as you stated kids should be free to just stand or step outside the room quietly. (we had some Jehovah's witness in my school who did that, it sometimes engendered discussion with all the "nuance" of sixth grade certainties, but the teachers always made clear it was a personal religious issue).

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter. I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.

Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.

I've got to mark my calendar. Complete agreement here.

[PLAYER57832]

Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?

Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.

One of the scariest stories I can remember went into just this. I cannot do it justice (if it sounds familiar to anyone maybe you can find a title or excerpt), but basically a kid was in school, not very appreciative as most boys can be. A new teacher comes in an announces that they are going to do away with the school books and play... and then later they get new books.. and then why bother going home to all those demands, just stay in school with people who appreciate you...

Anyway, on a different track entirely (sort of), I recently came across what has to be one of the best books to explain not really what oppression is, but how it works to middle school/Jr High (maybe even high school.. its not babyish) kids.. "Breaking Stalin's Nose".

[The Voice]

Pledge of Allegiance? I'm of the mind there are more pressing matters. One was illuminated in the very last seconds of the video. Mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance isn't an epidemic, but I'd argue the usage of ritalin is.

[thegreekdog]

Is it bad that I'm pretty indifferent as to reciting pledges of allegiance or national anthems in schools? Someone (Woodruff?) indicated that kids don't even know what it means.

I sing the national anthem and the whole nine when appropriate, mostly as a thank you to soldiers, but that's about the extent of my patriotism. Other than, you know, American Rulez!

[Woodruff]

Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?

Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

I don't know how you could possibly consider it NOT indoctrination. The ENTIRE POINT of the recitation is indoctrination...what other reason is there? Perhaps you can point it out for me, if it's not indoctrination?

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.

Such as?

[Woodruff]

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter.

Why do they matter, if those saying them don't even understand what they're saying? Please explain how that could POSSIBLY matter.

I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.
Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.

Which is fine. I love the National Anthem. I also love that people ARE NOT REQUIRED to sing it. The idea that people, and in particular children, are required to say the Pledge of Allegiance really smacks of Nazi Germany. (There, that should boil up the right-wingers.)

I consider myself an extremely patriotic individual. This isn't patriotism. It's something else, and not particularly attractive.

[Woodruff]

Mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance isn't an epidemic, but I'd argue the usage of ritalin is.

There are some pretty serious health consequences to the use of Ritalin. The Air Force won't even accept a recruit if they have used it within the last 3 years.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

When I was in elementary school it was compulsory. I used to get in trouble all the time because I'd either not do it or some of us would make up a mockery pledge.

Frankly, I find the idea of making children repeat a pledge repellant.

-TG

And then you became an anarchist. It's all falling into place....

I guess I was doomed from the start.

Is it bad that I'm pretty indifferent as to reciting pledges of allegiance or national anthems in schools? Someone (Woodruff?) indicated that kids don't even know what it means.

I believe it was Frigidus, and he's probably right; I don't think most kids really care cuz saying it is boring as shit and they don't start paying attention to school until about lunch hour. At least I didn't. But still, the idea of forcing a child to make a pledge to anything when they can barely dress themselves in the morning rubs me the wrong way.

-TG

[Juan_Bottom]

When I was in High School it became compulsory to recite it after those poor Californian Atheists started their doomed lawsuit.

We were required to say the chant every morning in our first class, right at 9AM. For me, that was World History. The very first day the Dean came over the loud speaker saying the chant, I refused to even stand, and my bro Aaron even sat back down too. So immediately after the Pledge ends, Ms B asks me what the hell I'm doing, and I tell her that I wont say the Pledge. She asks me "why not?" Like it's some crazy madness that I'm up to. I tell her that I won't blindly pledge my allegiance to the state like a Nazi, or be forced to use the phrase "Under God" because I am an Atheist. So she tells Aaron and I that if we wont say the pledge, she wants a full report on why we refuse to say it.
And homework makes me angry. So I tell her that she should make the rest of the class write a report on why they choose to say it as well. So she sends Aaron and I both to the hall, even though Aaron never said a word back to her. And neither of us ever did her stupid report, but later she had us suspended from school for cheating on a quiz, even though everyone knew she was lying.
But by the end of the quarter, at least a quarter of my class was sitting through the pledge with us.

Now, I had totally forgotten about this little incident with my terrible History teacher, but my kid sister tells me that she held it against her. lol @ her

[thegreekdog]

I believe it was Frigidus, and he's probably right; I don't think most kids really care cuz saying it is boring as shit and they don't start paying attention to school until about lunch hour. At least I didn't. But still, the idea of forcing a child to make a pledge to anything when they can barely dress themselves in the morning rubs me the wrong way.

It would rub me the wrong way too if it was anything other than "say this thing every day." As far as I know, no one is requiring students to join the military or kill Arabs or that other countries suck ass, simply by requiring them to say some words. I guess that's why I'm indifferent. And I'm pretty sure US public school students are no longer required to recite the pledge of allegience (honestly, the phrase "pledge of allegiance" rubs me the wrong way more than requiring kids to say it).

[Juan_Bottom]

Porky Pig recites the Pledge during WWII.
Congress added the "missing part" later.

Hows that for trivia?

[Woodruff]

So she tells Aaron and I that if we wont say the pledge, she wants a full report on why we refuse to say it.

I actually love this! I do! Rather than force you to do it, she made it educational (both for you and, possibly, for her). I really do.

And homework makes me angry.

Well yeah...as a kid, I would've hated it too. <grin>

So I tell her that she should make the rest of the class write a report on why they choose to say it as well.

If she was thinking clearly, she'd have gone right along with that. Might've gotten you beaten up if there were a bully who didn't like homework in the class, but much like yourself, it might've been educational for those other students. Plus, it sort of turns the tables on you a little bit...it shows you that she does actually listen to her students and she does actually consider the things you say. Mad as you'd have been about the homework (and possible beating), don't you think you'd have had a tad bit more of respect for her if she had followed in like that? She missed a golden opportunity there, in my opinion.

[Woodruff]

And I'm pretty sure US public school students are no longer required to recite the pledge of allegience (honestly, the phrase "pledge of allegiance" rubs me the wrong way more than requiring kids to say it).

They're required in Nebraska, as of this year.

[thegreekdog]

And I'm pretty sure US public school students are no longer required to recite the pledge of allegience (honestly, the phrase "pledge of allegiance" rubs me the wrong way more than requiring kids to say it).

They're required in Nebraska, as of this year.

Really? I may hva eot care more about this.

[tzor]

I don't know how you could possibly consider it NOT indoctrination. The ENTIRE POINT of the recitation is indoctrination...what other reason is there? Perhaps you can point it out for me, if it's not indoctrination?

I would call it an exercise in patriotic fervor. Let's look at it in historical context.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), who was a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850–1898). The original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8 issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas. The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, as a campaign to instill the idea of American nationalism by selling flags to public schools and magazines to students. According to author Margarette S. Miller this was in line with Upham's vision which he "would often say to his wife: 'Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into the Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.'"

While I am not going to pull a Mike Church on you, the only item of indoctrination was so effectively incorporated into the American spirit after the end of the Civil War (that is the notion that the "United States" is a singular noun and not a plural one ... "One Nation") that there is no real need to "indoctrinate" the children in the notion. (As a side note the early founders would have screamed at the thoughts in the pledge.)

So that leaves us with the pure capitalistic motive; the pledge is an excuse to sell flags. You can't pledge without a flag in every classroom.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.

Such as?

Global warming claptrap (and I'm not talking about real science but "feel good" Sesame Street level total fluff stuff) that tries to put a political message inside a nice wrapping of a song or a slogan or an image.

Global Warming Activities for Kindergarten

Mother Earth: Hi guys! It’s me, Mother Earth. I bet you never thought I would come and chat with you today. You know, the big old world you are sitting on. Reach down and touch it - it’s me! You can jump on me, you can dance on me, you can somersault on me, you can dive into my waters, roll around on my grass, dig in my sand, and wiggle your toes in my squishy mud [building pictures in their minds]. I am the whole world: I am the oceans [point to the blue water masses on the mask], I am the land [point to the green land mass on the mask], I am the forests, I am the mountains. I hold all of the animals in the world in my arms, all the fish in the sea, all the butterflies in the air, and all the people on the earth. I am your planet, I belong to you and you belong to me and together we live a happy life.

Uh, I think I'll stop at this point; I just freaked myself out. I'm glad there is a whole continent between California and me. No seriously; that freaks me out. Then again, I was reading with the first graders in Kindergarten.

Mother Earth: Now, I need you to go out into the world and teach all the little children and their families, too. You get to make a puppet that looks just like me and then tell my story to all your friends. You can pretend to be me!

Can't stop ... must hit submit button ...