Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Night Strike on Wed May 08, 2013 12:35 pm

The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed May 08, 2013 12:36 pm

Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

Hellz yeah, bro!


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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Frigidus on Wed May 08, 2013 12:40 pm

Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.


Even if I could write my own custom indoctrination song/chant for all the kids to repeat in school, I wouldn't be interested. We shouldn't be actively engaging in propaganda.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Army of GOD on Wed May 08, 2013 12:42 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.


Even if I could write my own custom indoctrination song/chant for all the kids to repeat in school, I wouldn't be interested. We shouldn't be actively engaging in propaganda.


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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Bones2484 on Wed May 08, 2013 12:44 pm

Gillipig wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


Such as?

You really can't think of any!? Wow, I don't think I want to waste any time discussing it with you if you need to ask me that. Watch the news, that should give you a taste of indoctrination.


I don't know about you, but I find it best to question and examine news sources before making up my mind. There are multiple outlets reporting on widely differing sides that you can pick from. We aren't being "indoctrinated" towards one news source in America by any stretch of the imagination.

Now if your answer was "religion", you might have an argument.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Symmetry on Wed May 08, 2013 12:48 pm

When I was at school in the US I just stood up during the pledge without speaking.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby saxitoxin on Wed May 08, 2013 2:07 pm

Here's some trivia - before the Nazi Party was formed, the U.S. civil salute was also the Roman salute of the outstretched arm -



After the U.S. entered WWII they changed their civil salute to be a subdued version of the crossed chest salute used by Mexico.

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Someone try to top that for trivia.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed May 08, 2013 4:24 pm

When I was in elementary school it was compulsory. I used to get in trouble all the time because I'd either not do it or some of us would make up a mockery pledge.

Frankly, I find the idea of making children repeat a pledge repellant.

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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 08, 2013 4:42 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:When I was in elementary school it was compulsory. I used to get in trouble all the time because I'd either not do it or some of us would make up a mockery pledge.

Frankly, I find the idea of making children repeat a pledge repellant.

-TG


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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 5:08 pm

Gillipig wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


Such as?


You really can't think of any!? Wow, I don't think I want to waste any time discussing it with you if you need to ask me that. Watch the news, that should give you a taste of indoctrination.


It appears to me that you're the one who couldn't think of any...
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 5:09 pm

Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.


First of all, how is it any better or worse?

Secondly, you say this as if you're trying to imply this was commonly done throughout the schools, as is becoming more and more common with the Pledge.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 5:10 pm

Symmetry wrote:When I was at school in the US I just stood up during the pledge without speaking.


Nothing wrong with that at all. It shows respect for those around you and what they're doing, but without requiring that you comply.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby notyou2 on Wed May 08, 2013 5:38 pm

Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.


What is this of which you write?
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 5:43 pm

notyou2 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.


What is this of which you write?


When Obama was elected (I think), some dumbass teacher had her students singing the praises of Obama at school. It was videotaped and, as you might expect, the Foxophiles all went up in arms.

I don't have a link, but it's nothing that matters in the slightest way to anything, to be honest. Much ado about nothing.
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Re:

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Wed May 08, 2013 6:34 pm

2dimes wrote:I'm not sure I understand the problem. Just move to a country you like enough to want your kids to sing a song about. Or conversely there are probably countries in Africa or South America with less school. You could teach them just the things you feel like.


I don't like any country enough to want kids to be told to daily recite a poem praising said country. (I'm having trouble even imagining a country I could like that much).

I have nothing against them being taught the anthem in school. After being taught said anthem then they can presumably spend 1 hour a day mindlessly reciting it in their free time if they're so inclined.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 6:47 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The kids don't pay ANY attention to the words they're saying...they're just repeating them.


That's the truth right there. I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance when I was in Kindergarten. I had no idea what "indivisible", "republic", or "allegiance" meant. I had a very loose grasp on what exactly America stood for in general. It accomplishes nothing outside of making kids look like creepy, chanting cultists for 15 seconds.

I once saw 2 segments... maybe an old "Candid Camera" slot, one had the kids saying "the pledge of allegience", massacred in all sorts of funny ways, the other had them trying to explain what they thought the words meant. It was pretty funny. I wish I could find it again. :(
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 6:50 pm

Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

Example?
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 08, 2013 6:55 pm

notyou2 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.


What is this of which you write?


"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby tzor on Wed May 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 7:07 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I like it. It's a positive kind of indoctrination. Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


What is positive about it? If they're not paying any attention to the words anyway, they're really NOT being indoctrinated. Essentially, it is a waste of a teacher's classroom time. Which they have little enough of as it is. Which means they're less effective. Which is what Phatscotty complains about.

So I would suggest to you that the Pledge of Allegience is actually a DETRIMENT, not a positive.

I actually disagree here.

Yes, the words are meaningless.. and of course, as you stated kids should be free to just stand or step outside the room quietly. (we had some Jehovah's witness in my school who did that, it sometimes engendered discussion with all the "nuance" of sixth grade certainties, but the teachers always made clear it was a personal religious issue).

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter. I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.

Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Nobunaga on Wed May 08, 2013 7:12 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I like it. It's a positive kind of indoctrination. Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


What is positive about it? If they're not paying any attention to the words anyway, they're really NOT being indoctrinated. Essentially, it is a waste of a teacher's classroom time. Which they have little enough of as it is. Which means they're less effective. Which is what Phatscotty complains about.

So I would suggest to you that the Pledge of Allegience is actually a DETRIMENT, not a positive.

I actually disagree here.

Yes, the words are meaningless.. and of course, as you stated kids should be free to just stand or step outside the room quietly. (we had some Jehovah's witness in my school who did that, it sometimes engendered discussion with all the "nuance" of sixth grade certainties, but the teachers always made clear it was a personal religious issue).

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter. I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.

Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.


I've got to mark my calendar. Complete agreement here.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 7:14 pm

tzor wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.

One of the scariest stories I can remember went into just this. I cannot do it justice (if it sounds familiar to anyone maybe you can find a title or excerpt), but basically a kid was in school, not very appreciative as most boys can be. A new teacher comes in an announces that they are going to do away with the school books and play... and then later they get new books.. and then why bother going home to all those demands, just stay in school with people who appreciate you...

Anyway, on a different track entirely (sort of), I recently came across what has to be one of the best books to explain not really what oppression is, but how it works to middle school/Jr High (maybe even high school.. its not babyish) kids.. "Breaking Stalin's Nose".
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby The Voice on Wed May 08, 2013 7:37 pm

Pledge of Allegiance? I'm of the mind there are more pressing matters. One was illuminated in the very last seconds of the video. Mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance isn't an epidemic, but I'd argue the usage of ritalin is.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby thegreekdog on Wed May 08, 2013 8:11 pm

Is it bad that I'm pretty indifferent as to reciting pledges of allegiance or national anthems in schools? Someone (Woodruff?) indicated that kids don't even know what it means.

I sing the national anthem and the whole nine when appropriate, mostly as a thank you to soldiers, but that's about the extent of my patriotism. Other than, you know, American Rulez!
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:48 pm

tzor wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.


I don't know how you could possibly consider it NOT indoctrination. The ENTIRE POINT of the recitation is indoctrination...what other reason is there? Perhaps you can point it out for me, if it's not indoctrination?

tzor wrote:True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.


Such as?
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