Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 6:47 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The kids don't pay ANY attention to the words they're saying...they're just repeating them.


That's the truth right there. I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance when I was in Kindergarten. I had no idea what "indivisible", "republic", or "allegiance" meant. I had a very loose grasp on what exactly America stood for in general. It accomplishes nothing outside of making kids look like creepy, chanting cultists for 15 seconds.

I once saw 2 segments... maybe an old "Candid Camera" slot, one had the kids saying "the pledge of allegience", massacred in all sorts of funny ways, the other had them trying to explain what they thought the words meant. It was pretty funny. I wish I could find it again. :(
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 6:50 pm

Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

Example?
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 08, 2013 6:55 pm

notyou2 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.


What is this of which you write?


"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby tzor on Wed May 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 7:07 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I like it. It's a positive kind of indoctrination. Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


What is positive about it? If they're not paying any attention to the words anyway, they're really NOT being indoctrinated. Essentially, it is a waste of a teacher's classroom time. Which they have little enough of as it is. Which means they're less effective. Which is what Phatscotty complains about.

So I would suggest to you that the Pledge of Allegience is actually a DETRIMENT, not a positive.

I actually disagree here.

Yes, the words are meaningless.. and of course, as you stated kids should be free to just stand or step outside the room quietly. (we had some Jehovah's witness in my school who did that, it sometimes engendered discussion with all the "nuance" of sixth grade certainties, but the teachers always made clear it was a personal religious issue).

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter. I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.

Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Nobunaga on Wed May 08, 2013 7:12 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I like it. It's a positive kind of indoctrination. Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


What is positive about it? If they're not paying any attention to the words anyway, they're really NOT being indoctrinated. Essentially, it is a waste of a teacher's classroom time. Which they have little enough of as it is. Which means they're less effective. Which is what Phatscotty complains about.

So I would suggest to you that the Pledge of Allegience is actually a DETRIMENT, not a positive.

I actually disagree here.

Yes, the words are meaningless.. and of course, as you stated kids should be free to just stand or step outside the room quietly. (we had some Jehovah's witness in my school who did that, it sometimes engendered discussion with all the "nuance" of sixth grade certainties, but the teachers always made clear it was a personal religious issue).

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter. I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.

Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.


I've got to mark my calendar. Complete agreement here.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 7:14 pm

tzor wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.

One of the scariest stories I can remember went into just this. I cannot do it justice (if it sounds familiar to anyone maybe you can find a title or excerpt), but basically a kid was in school, not very appreciative as most boys can be. A new teacher comes in an announces that they are going to do away with the school books and play... and then later they get new books.. and then why bother going home to all those demands, just stay in school with people who appreciate you...

Anyway, on a different track entirely (sort of), I recently came across what has to be one of the best books to explain not really what oppression is, but how it works to middle school/Jr High (maybe even high school.. its not babyish) kids.. "Breaking Stalin's Nose".
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby The Voice on Wed May 08, 2013 7:37 pm

Pledge of Allegiance? I'm of the mind there are more pressing matters. One was illuminated in the very last seconds of the video. Mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance isn't an epidemic, but I'd argue the usage of ritalin is.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby thegreekdog on Wed May 08, 2013 8:11 pm

Is it bad that I'm pretty indifferent as to reciting pledges of allegiance or national anthems in schools? Someone (Woodruff?) indicated that kids don't even know what it means.

I sing the national anthem and the whole nine when appropriate, mostly as a thank you to soldiers, but that's about the extent of my patriotism. Other than, you know, American Rulez!
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:48 pm

tzor wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.


I don't know how you could possibly consider it NOT indoctrination. The ENTIRE POINT of the recitation is indoctrination...what other reason is there? Perhaps you can point it out for me, if it's not indoctrination?

tzor wrote:True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.


Such as?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:50 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter.


Why do they matter, if those saying them don't even understand what they're saying? Please explain how that could POSSIBLY matter.

PLAYER57832 wrote:I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.
Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.


Which is fine. I love the National Anthem. I also love that people ARE NOT REQUIRED to sing it. The idea that people, and in particular children, are required to say the Pledge of Allegiance really smacks of Nazi Germany. (There, that should boil up the right-wingers.)

I consider myself an extremely patriotic individual. This isn't patriotism. It's something else, and not particularly attractive.
Last edited by Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:51 pm

The Voice wrote:Mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance isn't an epidemic, but I'd argue the usage of ritalin is.


There are some pretty serious health consequences to the use of Ritalin. The Air Force won't even accept a recruit if they have used it within the last 3 years.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed May 08, 2013 9:14 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:When I was in elementary school it was compulsory. I used to get in trouble all the time because I'd either not do it or some of us would make up a mockery pledge.

Frankly, I find the idea of making children repeat a pledge repellant.

-TG


And then you became an anarchist. It's all falling into place....


I guess I was doomed from the start.

greekdog wrote:Is it bad that I'm pretty indifferent as to reciting pledges of allegiance or national anthems in schools? Someone (Woodruff?) indicated that kids don't even know what it means.


I believe it was Frigidus, and he's probably right; I don't think most kids really care cuz saying it is boring as shit and they don't start paying attention to school until about lunch hour. At least I didn't. But still, the idea of forcing a child to make a pledge to anything when they can barely dress themselves in the morning rubs me the wrong way.

-TG
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed May 08, 2013 9:17 pm

When I was in High School it became compulsory to recite it after those poor Californian Atheists started their doomed lawsuit.

We were required to say the chant every morning in our first class, right at 9AM. For me, that was World History. The very first day the Dean came over the loud speaker saying the chant, I refused to even stand, and my bro Aaron even sat back down too. So immediately after the Pledge ends, Ms B asks me what the hell I'm doing, and I tell her that I wont say the Pledge. She asks me "why not?" Like it's some crazy madness that I'm up to. I tell her that I won't blindly pledge my allegiance to the state like a Nazi, or be forced to use the phrase "Under God" because I am an Atheist. So she tells Aaron and I that if we wont say the pledge, she wants a full report on why we refuse to say it.
And homework makes me angry. So I tell her that she should make the rest of the class write a report on why they choose to say it as well. So she sends Aaron and I both to the hall, even though Aaron never said a word back to her. And neither of us ever did her stupid report, but later she had us suspended from school for cheating on a quiz, even though everyone knew she was lying.
But by the end of the quarter, at least a quarter of my class was sitting through the pledge with us.

Now, I had totally forgotten about this little incident with my terrible History teacher, but my kid sister tells me that she held it against her. lol @ her
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby thegreekdog on Wed May 08, 2013 9:19 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:I believe it was Frigidus, and he's probably right; I don't think most kids really care cuz saying it is boring as shit and they don't start paying attention to school until about lunch hour. At least I didn't. But still, the idea of forcing a child to make a pledge to anything when they can barely dress themselves in the morning rubs me the wrong way.


It would rub me the wrong way too if it was anything other than "say this thing every day." As far as I know, no one is requiring students to join the military or kill Arabs or that other countries suck ass, simply by requiring them to say some words. I guess that's why I'm indifferent. And I'm pretty sure US public school students are no longer required to recite the pledge of allegience (honestly, the phrase "pledge of allegiance" rubs me the wrong way more than requiring kids to say it).
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed May 08, 2013 9:20 pm



Porky Pig recites the Pledge during WWII.
Congress added the "missing part" later.

Hows that for trivia?
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 9:25 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:So she tells Aaron and I that if we wont say the pledge, she wants a full report on why we refuse to say it.


I actually love this! I do! Rather than force you to do it, she made it educational (both for you and, possibly, for her). I really do.

Juan_Bottom wrote:And homework makes me angry.


Well yeah...as a kid, I would've hated it too. <grin>

Juan_Bottom wrote:So I tell her that she should make the rest of the class write a report on why they choose to say it as well.


If she was thinking clearly, she'd have gone right along with that. Might've gotten you beaten up if there were a bully who didn't like homework in the class, but much like yourself, it might've been educational for those other students. Plus, it sort of turns the tables on you a little bit...it shows you that she does actually listen to her students and she does actually consider the things you say. Mad as you'd have been about the homework (and possible beating), don't you think you'd have had a tad bit more of respect for her if she had followed in like that? She missed a golden opportunity there, in my opinion.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 9:27 pm

thegreekdog wrote: And I'm pretty sure US public school students are no longer required to recite the pledge of allegience (honestly, the phrase "pledge of allegiance" rubs me the wrong way more than requiring kids to say it).


They're required in Nebraska, as of this year.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby thegreekdog on Wed May 08, 2013 9:29 pm

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: And I'm pretty sure US public school students are no longer required to recite the pledge of allegience (honestly, the phrase "pledge of allegiance" rubs me the wrong way more than requiring kids to say it).


They're required in Nebraska, as of this year.


Really? I may hva eot care more about this.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby tzor on Wed May 08, 2013 10:29 pm

Woodruff wrote:I don't know how you could possibly consider it NOT indoctrination. The ENTIRE POINT of the recitation is indoctrination...what other reason is there? Perhaps you can point it out for me, if it's not indoctrination?


I would call it an exercise in patriotic fervor. Let's look at it in historical context.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), who was a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850–1898). The original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8 issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's arrival in the Americas. The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, as a campaign to instill the idea of American nationalism by selling flags to public schools and magazines to students. According to author Margarette S. Miller this was in line with Upham's vision which he "would often say to his wife: 'Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into the Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.'"


While I am not going to pull a Mike Church on you, the only item of indoctrination was so effectively incorporated into the American spirit after the end of the Civil War (that is the notion that the "United States" is a singular noun and not a plural one ... "One Nation") that there is no real need to "indoctrinate" the children in the notion. (As a side note the early founders would have screamed at the thoughts in the pledge.)

So that leaves us with the pure capitalistic motive; the pledge is an excuse to sell flags. You can't pledge without a flag in every classroom.

Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.


Such as?


Global warming claptrap (and I'm not talking about real science but "feel good" Sesame Street level total fluff stuff) that tries to put a political message inside a nice wrapping of a song or a slogan or an image.

Global Warming Activities for Kindergarten

Mother Earth: Hi guys! It’s me, Mother Earth. I bet you never thought I would come and chat with you today. You know, the big old world you are sitting on. Reach down and touch it - it’s me! You can jump on me, you can dance on me, you can somersault on me, you can dive into my waters, roll around on my grass, dig in my sand, and wiggle your toes in my squishy mud [building pictures in their minds]. I am the whole world: I am the oceans [point to the blue water masses on the mask], I am the land [point to the green land mass on the mask], I am the forests, I am the mountains. I hold all of the animals in the world in my arms, all the fish in the sea, all the butterflies in the air, and all the people on the earth. I am your planet, I belong to you and you belong to me and together we live a happy life.


Uh, I think I'll stop at this point; I just freaked myself out. I'm glad there is a whole continent between California and me. No seriously; that freaks me out. Then again, I was reading with the first graders in Kindergarten.

Mother Earth: Now, I need you to go out into the world and teach all the little children and their families, too. You get to make a puppet that looks just like me and then tell my story to all your friends. You can pretend to be me!


Can't stop ... must hit submit button ...
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 08, 2013 10:29 pm

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter.


Why do they matter, if those saying them don't even understand what they're saying? Please explain how that could POSSIBLY matter.


It's difficult to say, and I want to agree with you that kids don't really understand it, but those years of reciting that "mantra" may plant some kind of seed from which grows that tenuous feeling of belonging to something greater than oneself--that sense of belonging to a Nation-State. An appeal to one's individual sovereignty or rights--at the expense of the State and its perceived "national interests"--may become neglected because one belongs to the Nation ("of course"). One is an American and should abide by that foresworn allegiance or feeling of belonging.

Now, that could all be spurious, but the Pledge of Allegiance may instill that sense of belonging which later grows in some people's minds.

But if this is true, then this isn't good for it imbues in one that unquestioning feeling of Nationalism. It's that feeling expressed from people's mouths and minds when they call for a war against Afghanistan, Iraq, or for a War on Drugs, Crime, or Terrorism. It's difficult to clarify, but it seems tied to people's compliance to be taxed to provide Whatever because it's for the People, for the Nation. The individual's identity becomes one with the Nation.

It's just weird stuff, and the Dude does not abide.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Thu May 09, 2013 3:45 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:It's difficult to say, and I want to agree with you that kids don't really understand it, but those years of reciting that "mantra" may plant some kind of seed from which grows that tenuous feeling of belonging to something greater than oneself--that sense of belonging to a Nation-State. An appeal to one's individual sovereignty or rights--at the expense of the State and its perceived "national interests"--may become neglected because one belongs to the Nation ("of course"). One is an American and should abide by that foresworn allegiance or feeling of belonging.

Now, that could all be spurious, but the Pledge of Allegiance may instill that sense of belonging which later grows in some people's minds.

But if this is true, then this isn't good for it imbues in one that unquestioning feeling of Nationalism. It's that feeling expressed from people's mouths and minds when they call for a war against Afghanistan, Iraq, or for a War on Drugs, Crime, or Terrorism. It's difficult to clarify, but it seems tied to people's compliance to be taxed to provide Whatever because it's for the People, for the Nation. The individual's identity becomes one with the Nation.

It's just weird stuff, and the Dude does not abide.


Yes, that's exactly it.
And in a roundabout way, Player and tzor's defending of the pledge seem to not only acknowledge, but embrace that fact. As if it's a good thing for a person to identify a higher purpose for himself as being not an ideal, but rather the country he happened to be born with.

tzor wrote:I would call it an exercise in patriotic fervor.

...

Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into the Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.


So, this is the proof that it's not indoctrination?

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And yeah, I agree that global warming was politicized too early in its life and that it was not done well. I also agree that the US has a worrying tendency to stuff kids with drugs when they don't behave as you want them too.
These problems don't mean that making kids mindlessly recite a declaration they cannot voluntarily make at that age is a non-issue. (unless you also think that the fact that kids are starving in Africa makes every other problem on Earth a non-issue)
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Gillipig on Thu May 09, 2013 5:19 am

Woodruff wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


Such as?


You really can't think of any!? Wow, I don't think I want to waste any time discussing it with you if you need to ask me that. Watch the news, that should give you a taste of indoctrination.


It appears to me that you're the one who couldn't think of any...

Then you should fine tune your senses. I often walk away from discussions I know I can win. If I feel like I'm talking to a brick then I just go "f*ck it, this is a waste of time" and do something else.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 09, 2013 5:59 am

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I don't know how you could possibly consider it NOT indoctrination. The ENTIRE POINT of the recitation is indoctrination...what other reason is there? Perhaps you can point it out for me, if it's not indoctrination?


I would call it an exercise in patriotic fervor.


That's not indoctrination? That seems like a very basic form of it to me.

tzor wrote:While I am not going to pull a Mike Church on you, the only item of indoctrination was so effectively incorporated into the American spirit after the end of the Civil War (that is the notion that the "United States" is a singular noun and not a plural one ... "One Nation") that there is no real need to "indoctrinate" the children in the notion. (As a side note the early founders would have screamed at the thoughts in the pledge.)


To indoctrinate simply means to teach someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. And I disagree that is the only aspect that is indoctrination. The idea that this country is about "freedom and justice for all" simply is not true when looked at from a critical perspective.

tzor wrote:So that leaves us with the pure capitalistic motive; the pledge is an excuse to sell flags. You can't pledge without a flag in every classroom.


There probably is some of that. But I don't believe it's the primary motive.

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.


Such as?


Global warming claptrap (and I'm not talking about real science but "feel good" Sesame Street level total fluff stuff) that tries to put a political message inside a nice wrapping of a song or a slogan or an image.


I have never seen global warming presented uncritically IN A SCHOOL CLASSROOM. I don't really believe it happens, to be honest with you. I've seen it presented uncritically in the news media, and at times on the internet...but not in a classroom. The only time I've seen it presented at all in a classroom was a science classroom when they were studying the effects of weather, and frankly it was very well done. I think this one is a red herring, "school wise".

tzor wrote:Global Warming Activities for Kindergarten

Mother Earth: Hi guys! It’s me, Mother Earth. I bet you never thought I would come and chat with you today. You know, the big old world you are sitting on. Reach down and touch it - it’s me! You can jump on me, you can dance on me, you can somersault on me, you can dive into my waters, roll around on my grass, dig in my sand, and wiggle your toes in my squishy mud [building pictures in their minds]. I am the whole world: I am the oceans [point to the blue water masses on the mask], I am the land [point to the green land mass on the mask], I am the forests, I am the mountains. I hold all of the animals in the world in my arms, all the fish in the sea, all the butterflies in the air, and all the people on the earth. I am your planet, I belong to you and you belong to me and together we live a happy life.


So you don't believe that our kids should, at a very young age, consider the Earth to be a living eco-system? I'm a little confused here. I didn't watch the video, so if there's more than what you presented in the quotes, I'm interested.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 09, 2013 6:01 am

Gillipig wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
Bones2484 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


Such as?


You really can't think of any!? Wow, I don't think I want to waste any time discussing it with you if you need to ask me that. Watch the news, that should give you a taste of indoctrination.


It appears to me that you're the one who couldn't think of any...


Then you should fine tune your senses. I often walk away from discussions I know I can win. If I feel like I'm talking to a brick then I just go "f*ck it, this is a waste of time" and do something else.


Sometimes, the reality and the appearance are the same.
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