Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 6:47 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The kids don't pay ANY attention to the words they're saying...they're just repeating them.


That's the truth right there. I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance when I was in Kindergarten. I had no idea what "indivisible", "republic", or "allegiance" meant. I had a very loose grasp on what exactly America stood for in general. It accomplishes nothing outside of making kids look like creepy, chanting cultists for 15 seconds.

I once saw 2 segments... maybe an old "Candid Camera" slot, one had the kids saying "the pledge of allegience", massacred in all sorts of funny ways, the other had them trying to explain what they thought the words meant. It was pretty funny. I wish I could find it again. :(
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 6:50 pm

Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.

Example?
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 08, 2013 6:55 pm

notyou2 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance is better than the Obama-worship songs some schools have done.


What is this of which you write?


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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby tzor on Wed May 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 7:07 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I like it. It's a positive kind of indoctrination. Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


What is positive about it? If they're not paying any attention to the words anyway, they're really NOT being indoctrinated. Essentially, it is a waste of a teacher's classroom time. Which they have little enough of as it is. Which means they're less effective. Which is what Phatscotty complains about.

So I would suggest to you that the Pledge of Allegience is actually a DETRIMENT, not a positive.

I actually disagree here.

Yes, the words are meaningless.. and of course, as you stated kids should be free to just stand or step outside the room quietly. (we had some Jehovah's witness in my school who did that, it sometimes engendered discussion with all the "nuance" of sixth grade certainties, but the teachers always made clear it was a personal religious issue).

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter. I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.

Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Nobunaga on Wed May 08, 2013 7:12 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I like it. It's a positive kind of indoctrination. Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.


What is positive about it? If they're not paying any attention to the words anyway, they're really NOT being indoctrinated. Essentially, it is a waste of a teacher's classroom time. Which they have little enough of as it is. Which means they're less effective. Which is what Phatscotty complains about.

So I would suggest to you that the Pledge of Allegience is actually a DETRIMENT, not a positive.

I actually disagree here.

Yes, the words are meaningless.. and of course, as you stated kids should be free to just stand or step outside the room quietly. (we had some Jehovah's witness in my school who did that, it sometimes engendered discussion with all the "nuance" of sixth grade certainties, but the teachers always made clear it was a personal religious issue).

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter. I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.

Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.


I've got to mark my calendar. Complete agreement here.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 7:14 pm

tzor wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.

One of the scariest stories I can remember went into just this. I cannot do it justice (if it sounds familiar to anyone maybe you can find a title or excerpt), but basically a kid was in school, not very appreciative as most boys can be. A new teacher comes in an announces that they are going to do away with the school books and play... and then later they get new books.. and then why bother going home to all those demands, just stay in school with people who appreciate you...

Anyway, on a different track entirely (sort of), I recently came across what has to be one of the best books to explain not really what oppression is, but how it works to middle school/Jr High (maybe even high school.. its not babyish) kids.. "Breaking Stalin's Nose".
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby The Voice on Wed May 08, 2013 7:37 pm

Pledge of Allegiance? I'm of the mind there are more pressing matters. One was illuminated in the very last seconds of the video. Mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance isn't an epidemic, but I'd argue the usage of ritalin is.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby thegreekdog on Wed May 08, 2013 8:11 pm

Is it bad that I'm pretty indifferent as to reciting pledges of allegiance or national anthems in schools? Someone (Woodruff?) indicated that kids don't even know what it means.

I sing the national anthem and the whole nine when appropriate, mostly as a thank you to soldiers, but that's about the extent of my patriotism. Other than, you know, American Rulez!
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:48 pm

tzor wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Do people actually have the illusion that this is not indoctrination of the basest kind?


Yes, I do. Unless it is the indoctrination of uniform recitation because children rarely listen to such often repeated recitations.


I don't know how you could possibly consider it NOT indoctrination. The ENTIRE POINT of the recitation is indoctrination...what other reason is there? Perhaps you can point it out for me, if it's not indoctrination?

tzor wrote:True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.


Such as?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:50 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter.


Why do they matter, if those saying them don't even understand what they're saying? Please explain how that could POSSIBLY matter.

PLAYER57832 wrote:I can still remember the congressfolk all standing on the steps together and saying the pledge after 9-11. It was showmanship, but it also said something that did matter. Its a ceremony of shared purpose.
Per the national anthem, in particular, there are few things as emotional as hearing your national anthem when overseas. I know its true for people from most countries. Nothing seems to just say "home" like an anthem.


Which is fine. I love the National Anthem. I also love that people ARE NOT REQUIRED to sing it. The idea that people, and in particular children, are required to say the Pledge of Allegiance really smacks of Nazi Germany. (There, that should boil up the right-wingers.)

I consider myself an extremely patriotic individual. This isn't patriotism. It's something else, and not particularly attractive.
Last edited by Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 8:51 pm

The Voice wrote:Mandatory recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance isn't an epidemic, but I'd argue the usage of ritalin is.


There are some pretty serious health consequences to the use of Ritalin. The Air Force won't even accept a recruit if they have used it within the last 3 years.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed May 08, 2013 9:14 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:When I was in elementary school it was compulsory. I used to get in trouble all the time because I'd either not do it or some of us would make up a mockery pledge.

Frankly, I find the idea of making children repeat a pledge repellant.

-TG


And then you became an anarchist. It's all falling into place....


I guess I was doomed from the start.

greekdog wrote:Is it bad that I'm pretty indifferent as to reciting pledges of allegiance or national anthems in schools? Someone (Woodruff?) indicated that kids don't even know what it means.


I believe it was Frigidus, and he's probably right; I don't think most kids really care cuz saying it is boring as shit and they don't start paying attention to school until about lunch hour. At least I didn't. But still, the idea of forcing a child to make a pledge to anything when they can barely dress themselves in the morning rubs me the wrong way.

-TG
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed May 08, 2013 9:17 pm

When I was in High School it became compulsory to recite it after those poor Californian Atheists started their doomed lawsuit.

We were required to say the chant every morning in our first class, right at 9AM. For me, that was World History. The very first day the Dean came over the loud speaker saying the chant, I refused to even stand, and my bro Aaron even sat back down too. So immediately after the Pledge ends, Ms B asks me what the hell I'm doing, and I tell her that I wont say the Pledge. She asks me "why not?" Like it's some crazy madness that I'm up to. I tell her that I won't blindly pledge my allegiance to the state like a Nazi, or be forced to use the phrase "Under God" because I am an Atheist. So she tells Aaron and I that if we wont say the pledge, she wants a full report on why we refuse to say it.
And homework makes me angry. So I tell her that she should make the rest of the class write a report on why they choose to say it as well. So she sends Aaron and I both to the hall, even though Aaron never said a word back to her. And neither of us ever did her stupid report, but later she had us suspended from school for cheating on a quiz, even though everyone knew she was lying.
But by the end of the quarter, at least a quarter of my class was sitting through the pledge with us.

Now, I had totally forgotten about this little incident with my terrible History teacher, but my kid sister tells me that she held it against her. lol @ her
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Re: Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

Postby thegreekdog on Wed May 08, 2013 9:19 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:I believe it was Frigidus, and he's probably right; I don't think most kids really care cuz saying it is boring as shit and they don't start paying attention to school until about lunch hour. At least I didn't. But still, the idea of forcing a child to make a pledge to anything when they can barely dress themselves in the morning rubs me the wrong way.


It would rub me the wrong way too if it was anything other than "say this thing every day." As far as I know, no one is requiring students to join the military or kill Arabs or that other countries suck ass, simply by requiring them to say some words. I guess that's why I'm indifferent. And I'm pretty sure US public school students are no longer required to recite the pledge of allegience (honestly, the phrase "pledge of allegiance" rubs me the wrong way more than requiring kids to say it).
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