Is Phatscotty a Republican?

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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat May 18, 2013 11:53 am

john9blue wrote:ITT are a bunch of douchebags.

if you think scotty is a liar here about his beliefs, then call him out on it when he tries to argue against them in another thread.

wait nvm, it's easier to stick your head in the sand and pretend that people you don't agree with are all dishonest scumbags.

bunch of fucking morons. i don't often defend scotty, but the level of idiocy here is ridiculous.

also, this made me laugh:

because it's coming from someone so thoroughly indoctrinated and so predictable that i could probably write a computer program to make their posts for them. i can see why you'd be against individual thought. get back in line soldier!


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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 2:44 pm

Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:ITT are a bunch of douchebags.

if you think scotty is a liar here about his beliefs, then call him out on it when he tries to argue against them in another thread.


I do. All the time.

john9blue wrote:wait nvm, it's easier to stick your head in the sand and pretend that people you don't agree with are all dishonest scumbags.


Occasionally, there are people who are dishonest scumbags.

john9blue wrote:bunch of fucking morons. i don't often defend scotty, but the level of idiocy here is ridiculous.


Actually, you do. Frequently.


That's a bunch of crap. Out of all the posters that used to talk to me, I miss John the most. I haven't seen him touch one of my post in at least a year, maybe longer. and that's fine, I don't blame anyone for wanting to stay out of my discussions, and I respect anyone who truly wants to talk about the issue, regardless. In fact toxification is the goal of posters like Woodruff. Greekdog asks me some questions, I answer them the exact same way I have always answered them, Woodruff and Co. come in and call me a liar and a bunch of other names and make the entire conversation toxic, and nobody wants to touch it. Brilliant, no. Effective, yes. Honorable, no. Troll, yes.

That's fine, I always have stood alone. But after the tech bubble, after the real estate bubble, after the precious metals run up....the very few people who have heard my words and took it upon themselves to actually learn about something on their own and have truly evolved out of the bullshit level people always try to drag me back into, have done extremely well for themselves. I have found that being right too early is a curse. You probably can't imagine how completely moronic and utterly idiotic everyone told me I was for trying to move my clients into gold at $290, and my boss and the company owner were no exception, while of course they are highly educated and experienced people themselves. Even they did not get the memo. It wasn't even 9 out of 10 people who wanted to tear my head off for even suggesting something so stupid as gold, it was more like 29 out of 30. But here we are, a decade later...what I have found is that those who were the most vocal in calling me a barbarian, an America hater, an evil Liberal, (one of my clients at the time, while in Singapore, sent me a picture of the banner in the street that said "America, the great satan" and he wrote "saw this, thought of you) have pretty much ruined our relationship and now they resent me and write me off as greedy or lucky or whatever. Losing their homes has become my fault. Losing their retirement has become my fault. Even though I was only trying to help them the entire time, even though everything I warned about came to pass, they still can't make hay. But all I can do is try to help.

I don't care what anyone wants to call me or label me. I don't give a single shit. I've already experienced the worst on both sides. I don't care how many times I get banned for double posting or necrobumping either. I care that in the future, you remember me and what I and others have said, so you can look at recent history for yourselves, and make the correct decision at the correct time, in a world saturated with lies and disinformation and elitist/establishment backed narrative control at every level.

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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Lootifer on Sat May 18, 2013 6:55 pm

john9blue wrote:ITT are a bunch of douchebags.

if you think scotty is a liar here about his beliefs, then call him out on it when he tries to argue against them in another thread.

wait nvm, it's easier to stick your head in the sand and pretend that people you don't agree with are all dishonest scumbags.

bunch of fucking morons. i don't often defend scotty, but the level of idiocy here is ridiculous.

I almost suspect you of trolling here.

Firstly I said I questioned his honesty (likewise BBS gave reasons why he would be dishonest and opted on that likelihood) I didnt openly call him a "dishonest scumbag"*.

Secondly PS is very smart in that he seldom lets his core ideals show (similar to you but less subtle); for example he says he is not against specific aspects of the laws governing homosexual behavior, but often eludes to a predicted deterioration of society if these laws are altered in favor of homosexuals. I try to call him out when he does this but it is not often successful (see my thread on education for an example of this).

Thirdly there's even a nifty example of it in here. He was careful to quickly assume that he was also not a libertarian, doing so prevents this being used against him in further arguments. If he's not guilty of dishonesty/consistency then he's certainly guilty of opacity/political maneuvering (lol on an anonymous forum no less!) which I dislike with equal fervor.

* yes yes, plenty of irony here, but get over it.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby AAFitz on Sat May 18, 2013 7:17 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:At my own personal risk* I create this thread to determine, once and for all, whether Phatscotty is a Republican and what kind of Republican he is.

Phatscotty, please answer the following questions:

- Who did you vote for in the 2012 presidential election?
- Who did you vote for in the 2008 presidential election?
- Who did you vote for in the 2004 presidential election?
- At the time, did you support the war in Iraq?
- At the time, did you support the war in Afghanistan?
- Did you support, during the Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr. administrations, the creation and/or maintenance of military presence overseas?
- Are you in favor of the federal bonus depreciation deduction?
- Are you in favor of the federal credit for research and development?
- Are you in favor of making abortion illegal?
- Are you in favor of making English the official language of the United States?
- Are you in favor of making flag burning illegal?
- Are you in favor of making gay marriage illegal?

I may have additional questions for you as you answer these.

Thanks.

TGD, registered Libertarian, tax attorney, and constitutional scholar

* Personal risk may include, but is not limited to, bodily harm, banning, and accusations of trolling, baiting, and flaming.


You think I would report you or something?

That's okay. All my life there has been confusion as to exactly where I stand, but like I have said repeatedly, I am a registered independent who is fiscally concerned, and the fiscal concern is growing more and more and time goes by. Independents do not always act a certain way, which is why it is hard for some people who think because I go to the right on one issue, I am chained to the right on every issue. Anyhoo...

2012 - I voted for Romney, specifically against Obama
2008 - Ron Paul
2004 - Ralp Nader

I have never, EVER supported the Iraq war. I was against it even before it started, even when Keith Olberman and Hillary Clitnon were for it. Being against the Iraq war was probably the #1 reason I was demonized as a Liberal from the years 2001-2006.

I supported the Afghanistan actions, but was hoping we would clean house, get the terrorists, and get out. I would have preferred to leave after about 6 months.

I don't think I supported any kind of military presence overseas. Of course each situation is different, and I'm not a pacifist, but my first votes I could cast were for Ross Perot and Jesse Ventura, and their position on the military was a heavy reason for my support, that is that the military is far too stretched out and intervenes way too much in other countries. I am for the strongest of strong defenses, as to me that is the most important function of government, and I think there is a lot of difference between a strong defense and a large military that outspends the rest of the world combined.

I don't know exactly what the federal bonus is, but I can tell you if it costs money that we don't have, I am very likely against it unless there is a specific good and legitimate reason for it's existence.

Federal credit for RnD, I am not dead set against it, but I would much rather prefer the tax system we have were not in place in order for there to be deductions in the first place.

I am not in favor of making abortion illegal.

I think it's important to have an official language. That is not to say that no other language can be spoken, but when it comes to government forms, yes I think they should be in English. We should provide translators and forms written in other languages upon request. However I have not heard a lot of arguments against this or put a lot of thought into it, so I would be open to listen and possibly be persuaded upon discovery of previously unknown details/situations.

I believe burning the flag is a form of free speech, and making it illegal would infringe on the first amendment.

I have a problem with the way your last question is asked. As of right now, gay marriage is not recognized by a majority of states, so I think it's incorrect to ask if I support making it illegal, as that is the way it mostly is. But to skip the re-asking, I can tolerate whichever way the voters decide, so long as the voters get a chance to decide. That is to say, if the voters decide not to change the definition of marriage, I support that. Likewise, if the voters decide to change the definition of marriage, I support that too. The marriage issue is mostly one of process to me, and overall I don't think the government should be involved in marriage in the first place.


It is very cool to see you having answered these questions honestly. I have a little more respect for you, not that I think that matters to you one iota.
I also think it to some degree proves that you are more or less a reasonable person, that enjoys making....sensationalized claims and creating drama...or, for lack of a better word...a troll. But that is based on the entire other body of your "work" in CC, and not on this.

Also, personally, I enjoyed watching you squirm on that last question, but that is my failing, not yours.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby AAFitz on Sat May 18, 2013 7:30 pm

john9blue wrote:ITT are a bunch of douchebags.

if you think scotty is a liar here about his beliefs, then call him out on it when he tries to argue against them in another thread.

wait nvm, it's easier to stick your head in the sand and pretend that people you don't agree with are all dishonest scumbags.

bunch of fucking morons. i don't often defend scotty, but the level of idiocy here is ridiculous.

also, this made me laugh:

ooge wrote: By that voting record he appears to be in favor of wherever the political winds blow,the mind of a scattered brain individual with no core principles.reminds me of a fan of the New York Yankees living in Boston going to Red Sox games,He is not really a Fan of the Yankees, he just likes getting all the negative attention.


because it's coming from someone so thoroughly indoctrinated and so predictable that i could probably write a computer program to make their posts for them. i can see why you'd be against individual thought. get back in line soldier!


I hesitate to comment on this, because so often John, you take me seriously, when I am being sarcastic. Here, I will be serious, but I fear you would confuse it for sarcasm....because I am partially agreeing with you AND phatscotty....typically, that would be deadpan, sarcastic parody from me. That is so unlikely, so impossible, that you were supposed to realize I was joking because the statement is just too ridiculous....but in this case, I am not joking...err, am being serious, except where Im obviously joking......just trust me this once.

I believed he was answering honestly. I can't honestly say I know he was honest, but I certainly chose to believe he was being honest. It had the look and feel of honesty, and I never gave it a second thought...except maybe on his last answer which seemed to be answered by someone who was..."Bi..."

Anyhoo, I think you have a valid point that if he answered honestly, he deserves respect for that, and for my part, I gave as much of it as I could. I also however, think your reaction is a little overboard, much as I think some of the other people......my god Im defending PS here....may have similarly been a little overboard as well.

Again John, Ive been completely honest up until this point, but will now venture into the kind of area you dont like which is somewhere near Parody land, with still a hint of honesty...

I think this can all be solved with a yes or no.

Phatscotty, were you completely honest in your answers to GD?
(again, I think so, and I only ask, to clarify for everyone else)
((and the reason I mentioned the Parodyland was of course, because I AAFitz, your long time buddy, and simply asking flat out, "were you lying"))

Hopefully even Johnny can see the humor in that.

:D
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby / on Sun May 19, 2013 12:05 am

Phatscotty wrote:2004 - Ralp Nader

Wow, that's kind of surprising, what did you like about Nader?
I would have thought several of his ideals would be deal breakers for you, like his single payer universal health care plan, $10 living wage advocacy, progressive taxation advocacy, or anti-economic globalization advocacy.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Woodruff on Sun May 19, 2013 12:09 am

Phatscotty wrote:In fact toxification is the goal of posters like Woodruff. Greekdog asks me some questions, I answer them the exact same way I have always answered them, Woodruff and Co. come in and call me a liar and a bunch of other names and make the entire conversation toxic, and nobody wants to touch it. Brilliant, no. Effective, yes. Honorable, no. Troll, yes.


Actually, you make a fine habit...no, habit isn't the right word...you make a fine profession out of not answering questions, whether they are posed by myself, thegreekdog, BBS, or whoever. The only time you seem to be willing to give an answer to a question is when you seem to believe you can twist it toward your own ends. Otherwise, you simply obfuscate, deny or avoid.

Phatscotty wrote:But here we are, a decade later...what I have found is that those who were the most vocal in calling me a barbarian, an America hater, an evil Liberal


You keep saying things like this, but I have to tell you...you've never been a liberal.

Phatscotty wrote:But all I can do is try to help.


Yeah, you're trying to help alright. You're helping those people trying to get welfare aid. You're helping homosexuals.

Phatscotty wrote:I care that in the future, you remember me and what I and others have said, so you can look at recent history for yourselves, and make the correct decision at the correct time, in a world saturated with lies and disinformation and elitist/establishment backed narrative control at every level.


You are the direct source of most of the disinformation in this forum.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Woodruff on Sun May 19, 2013 12:12 am

/ wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:2004 - Ralp Nader

Wow, that's kind of surprising, what did you like about Nader?
I would have thought several of his ideals would be deal breakers for you, like his single payer universal health care plan, $10 living wage advocacy, progressive taxation advocacy, or anti-economic globalization advocacy.


I can hear it running through his head now..."Wait, Nader was for those things?" <laughing out loud>
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby john9blue on Sun May 19, 2013 2:02 am

Lootifer wrote:I almost suspect you of trolling here.

Firstly I said I questioned his honesty (likewise BBS gave reasons why he would be dishonest and opted on that likelihood) I didnt openly call him a "dishonest scumbag"*.

Secondly PS is very smart in that he seldom lets his core ideals show (similar to you but less subtle); for example he says he is not against specific aspects of the laws governing homosexual behavior, but often eludes to a predicted deterioration of society if these laws are altered in favor of homosexuals. I try to call him out when he does this but it is not often successful (see my thread on education for an example of this).

Thirdly there's even a nifty example of it in here. He was careful to quickly assume that he was also not a libertarian, doing so prevents this being used against him in further arguments. If he's not guilty of dishonesty/consistency then he's certainly guilty of opacity/political maneuvering (lol on an anonymous forum no less!) which I dislike with equal fervor.

* yes yes, plenty of irony here, but get over it.


i'm not trolling... and if you want to know about any of my core ideals, then just ask!

and i think you should call scotty out on this stuff because i'm interested in how he will respond. like / was saying, how did he bring himself to vote for nader? did he change over the years, or would he still vote nader given the chance?

AAFitz wrote:It is very cool to see you having answered these questions honestly. I have a little more respect for you, not that I think that matters to you one iota.
I also think it to some degree proves that you are more or less a reasonable person, that enjoys making....sensationalized claims and creating drama...or, for lack of a better word...a troll. But that is based on the entire other body of your "work" in CC, and not on this.

Also, personally, I enjoyed watching you squirm on that last question, but that is my failing, not yours.


respect, aafitz. this is the kind of reaction i was hoping for. you can disagree with him or think he's a troll, but at least he's putting it on the line. right now scotty is the "man in the arena" and ITT are a bunch of critics.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun May 19, 2013 2:11 am

/ wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:2004 - Ralp Nader

Wow, that's kind of surprising, what did you like about Nader?


I was very against the Iraq war, and Nader was the only voice against it. I was looking for pictures of my Nader halloween pumpkin I carved but don't know where they are. Plus, I was all caught up in that "If we can just get him 5%!" thing, and I was a lot younger, barely out of college. The war was a priority for me. That is when I was still on my third party streak. Locally I was very proud to vote for Jesse Ventura, and my other votes were for Tim Penny and Dean Berkley. I guess looking back I cared mostly about working outside the Republicans/Democrats and I had a lot of hope after seeing a 3rd party win the governorship in a state like Minnesota
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby AAFitz on Sun May 19, 2013 9:54 am

Phatscotty wrote:
/ wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:2004 - Ralp Nader

Wow, that's kind of surprising, what did you like about Nader?


I was very against the Iraq war, and Nader was the only voice against it. I was looking for pictures of my Nader halloween pumpkin I carved but don't know where they are. Plus, I was all caught up in that "If we can just get him 5%!" thing, and I was a lot younger, barely out of college. The war was a priority for me. That is when I was still on my third party streak. Locally I was very proud to vote for Jesse Ventura, and my other votes were for Tim Penny and Dean Berkley. I guess looking back I cared mostly about working outside the Republicans/Democrats and I had a lot of hope after seeing a 3rd party win the governorship in a state like Minnesota


Its ok, we all know you are also inclined to support and vote for candidates that dont have a chance in hell of having a chance in hell of winning the election.

It might even be your strong suit...but it is fun to mock. :D
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby ooge on Sun May 19, 2013 10:06 am

Phatscotty wrote:
/ wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:2004 - Ralp Nader

Wow, that's kind of surprising, what did you like about Nader?


I was very against the Iraq war, and Nader was the only voice against it. I was looking for pictures of my Nader halloween pumpkin I carved but don't know where they are. Plus, I was all caught up in that "If we can just get him 5%!" thing, and I was a lot younger, barely out of college. The war was a priority for me. That is when I was still on my third party streak. Locally I was very proud to vote for Jesse Ventura, and my other votes were for Tim Penny and Dean Berkley. I guess looking back I cared mostly about working outside the Republicans/Democrats and I had a lot of hope after seeing a 3rd party win the governorship in a state like Minnesota


Nader/Ron Paul, polar opposites..shows a lack of critical thinking or not really believing in anything.There are some things I like about Ron Paul but when I came across the problems he has with race,The Ron Paul Newsletter,Ron Paul being the only congressman to vote no against a civil rights bill.also he wants to put the country back on the Gold Standard,that not only would destroy the US economy it would cause a Global Depression.NO Ron Paul for me.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Dukasaur on Sun May 19, 2013 11:14 am

ooge wrote: Nader/Ron Paul, polar opposites..shows a lack of critical thinking or not really believing in anything..

Not exactly.

That's Nader's Nolan chart on top, Paul's on the bottom:
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Quite far apart, but not exactly polar opposites. And if I was American, I too could consider voting for either of them. More Paul than Nader, but I would choose Nader over someone from the mainstream slug parties. Both hold some positions that I don't agree with, but the common thread is that both are opponents of the status quo and the military-industrial complex.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Baron Von PWN on Sun May 19, 2013 11:33 am

I think of phatscotty as my blue collar uncle. He has a lot of opinions on things, he means well,and generally believes in the concept of "live and let live" but doesn't always think things through and has trouble admitting when he's wrong. So he gets in situations where he's defending a position he likely realizes is wrong but has backed himself into a corner and refuses to give up and admit being wrong.

That is the impression I get from scotty. Someone who is strongly opinionated, maybe lacking in formal education(entirely my impression no idea if its the case), and unwilling to back down or admit being wrong.

Nice enough guy, kindoff annoying to get into an argument over politics with.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby patches70 on Sun May 19, 2013 11:42 am

ooge wrote:also he wants to put the country back on the Gold Standard,that not only would destroy the US economy it would cause a Global Depression.


Why would you think that? It's not necessarily true.

Now, I don't want to go to the Gold Standard either, but it's not because I think there'd be a global depression. Ron Paul is more an advocate for sound money which doesn't necessarily have to be the Gold Standard, just that the currency is a representative currency instead of the fiat currencies in use all over the world today.

Representative currency protects against deflation, inflation, hyperinflation and monetary policy abuses (the latter was the main cause of the Great Depression BTW) but it can't be manipulated easily.
That's why governments hate such currency, because they can't control it like they can fiat currency. Bankers hate such currency because they can't lend what they want with money they create out of thin air. And things that bankers and governments hate can't be all bad!

I'm all for a sound money, and it doesn't have to be representative of gold.

I don't think your opinion on currencies is very informed at all. You'd be well served to address that IMO. It'll help you in the future.


ooge wrote:Ron Paul being the only congressman to vote no against a civil rights bill.


And if you are talking about the civil rights Act of 1964 then you aren't even close to being right. He voted against it, but he certainly wasn't alone. And do you know why he voted against it? And do you know which party voted heavily against the civil rights act of 1964?
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Woodruff on Sun May 19, 2013 1:06 pm

ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
/ wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:2004 - Ralp Nader

Wow, that's kind of surprising, what did you like about Nader?


I was very against the Iraq war, and Nader was the only voice against it. I was looking for pictures of my Nader halloween pumpkin I carved but don't know where they are. Plus, I was all caught up in that "If we can just get him 5%!" thing, and I was a lot younger, barely out of college. The war was a priority for me. That is when I was still on my third party streak. Locally I was very proud to vote for Jesse Ventura, and my other votes were for Tim Penny and Dean Berkley. I guess looking back I cared mostly about working outside the Republicans/Democrats and I had a lot of hope after seeing a 3rd party win the governorship in a state like Minnesota


Nader/Ron Paul, polar opposites..shows a lack of critical thinking or not really believing in anything.


In fairness, people's perspectives do change over time.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Woodruff on Sun May 19, 2013 1:08 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
ooge wrote:Nader/Ron Paul, polar opposites..shows a lack of critical thinking or not really believing in anything..

Not exactly.

That's Nader's Nolan chart on top, Paul's on the bottom:


Uh...did you mean left and right? <smile>

Dukasaur wrote:Quite far apart, but not exactly polar opposites. And if I was American, I too could consider voting for either of them. More Paul than Nader, but I would choose Nader over someone from the mainstream slug parties. Both hold some positions that I don't agree with, but the common thread is that both are opponents of the status quo and the military-industrial complex.


Not only that, but they both have shown a consistency to those positions that makes it much more likely to be sincere.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Woodruff on Sun May 19, 2013 1:10 pm

patches70 wrote:Representative currency protects against deflation, inflation, hyperinflation and monetary policy abuses (the latter was the main cause of the Great Depression BTW) but it can't be manipulated easily.
That's why governments hate such currency, because they can't control it like they can fiat currency. Bankers hate such currency because they can't lend what they want with money they create out of thin air. And things that bankers and governments hate can't be all bad!
I'm all for a sound money, and it doesn't have to be representative of gold.


I agree with this, but if not the Gold Standard, what would it be representative of?
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby patches70 on Sun May 19, 2013 2:22 pm

Woodruff wrote:
patches70 wrote:Representative currency protects against deflation, inflation, hyperinflation and monetary policy abuses (the latter was the main cause of the Great Depression BTW) but it can't be manipulated easily.
That's why governments hate such currency, because they can't control it like they can fiat currency. Bankers hate such currency because they can't lend what they want with money they create out of thin air. And things that bankers and governments hate can't be all bad!
I'm all for a sound money, and it doesn't have to be representative of gold.


I agree with this, but if not the Gold Standard, what would it be representative of?


Oh there are lots of things that the currency can be tied to. Ancient Egypt got to be the richest nation at the time by tying their money to wheat.*
If we were to tie our currency to precious metals, then it shouldn't be to only gold. Who owns all the gold? The Central banks. And they're hoarding it.** If we base our currency to PMs then it should include not only gold but also silver and copper. That would give a decently large supply of money for our needs (if we weren't wasteful) and would make it very hard for any one group to control all three of those PMs.

But you could tie the money to anything, so long as what it's tied to is a resource that requires effort to collect.

But there have been all kinds of alternative economic systems and some very successful. Those during modern times have always been suppressed by TPTB and Central banks who want to maintain their monopoly on the foundation of civilization.*** Money is the representation of all your efforts, work, sweat and blood and most importantly, your time. Having a currency there you know exactly what all your efforts will be worth in the future is a very stabilizing foundation.
Our current system, your efforts are worth less and less every day where you must spend more time, more effort to gain what you used to in the past.
This is why we have two income families that are still barely scraping to get by when in the past one income was more than enough. It's because the measurement of those efforts has been debased constantly so that the State and the banks can meet their goals. All too often their interests are not in the individuals best interest. And it causes all kinds of problems right on down the line. From political to social to moral and ethical issues.
Where today there are Too Big to Fail institutions, people and groups, we individuals are too small to succeed. Because our efforts are constantly being stolen day after day through currency devaluation. Representative currencies make this a much harder thing to do by TPTB.


*You know the old bible story about the famine in the land where Joseph told Pharaoh there would be seven good years and seven lean years. Pharaoh tied his money to wheat and in the good years he collected lots of wheat and stored it safely. When the famine came every nation came to Egypt to purchase grains. Egypt grew fabulously wealthy because they had a huge abundance.
What isn't really gone into with the story is the economic system in Egypt at the time. Payments were made in grain. They had a representative currency where anyone could turn in their currency at the royal granaries and receive a set amount of grain. The currency was backed by grain, a resource vital for survival so Egyptian currency was prized by everyone.
It wasn't a currency you'd be familiar with today, the Egyptians didn't strike gold coins (at the time). Likely their currency was clay tablets or something, but we know it was all tied directly to the amount of grain held.
When other nations who were starving came to Egypt, they traded gold, lumber, virtually anything of value to get that food. And Egypt got rich beyond belief because they had based their monetary system on a resource, instead of a fiat currency or a precious metal.
Joseph's story of being a prophet one can take as they will, but in truth Egypt did grow very wealthy during an especially bad time famine wise and we know for a fact that they tied their economic system to grain. And they prospered greatly while the rest of the world struggled.
Consider, agriculture was the base of society at the time. A famine would be the equivalent of a depression, would it not? Yet, Egypt grew wealthy anyway, because they had a sound economic system at the time and used it wisely.
And that is the crux, using one's system wisely. Sound money doesn't help people who live beyond their means or who are foolish with what they spend on.


** One must always remember, the Gold Standard Golden Rule- He who owns the gold makes the rules.


***The latest incarnation is the Bitcoin which is now in the process of being taken over and regulated by TPTB. I could go into that issue in depth. Suffice it to say, investing in Bitcoins isn't a safe thing to do at this time. But to each his own I suppose.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby kentington on Sun May 19, 2013 2:28 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
ooge wrote:Nader/Ron Paul, polar opposites..shows a lack of critical thinking or not really believing in anything..

Not exactly.

That's Nader's Nolan chart on top, Paul's on the bottom:


Uh...did you mean left and right? <smile>


Most likely he was on a mobile device with a smaller screen. It makes it top and bottom.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Dukasaur on Sun May 19, 2013 3:35 pm

kentington wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
ooge wrote:Nader/Ron Paul, polar opposites..shows a lack of critical thinking or not really believing in anything..

Not exactly.

That's Nader's Nolan chart on top, Paul's on the bottom:


Uh...did you mean left and right? <smile>


Most likely he was on a mobile device with a smaller screen. It makes it top and bottom.

Standard desktop computer with a 14" monitor. 1024 x 768 pixels. And yes, it's top to bottom on my screen.

You guys with the newfangled hi-res widescreen monitors are spoiled...:P
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby kentington on Sun May 19, 2013 3:48 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
kentington wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
ooge wrote:Nader/Ron Paul, polar opposites..shows a lack of critical thinking or not really believing in anything..

Not exactly.

That's Nader's Nolan chart on top, Paul's on the bottom:


Uh...did you mean left and right? <smile>


Most likely he was on a mobile device with a smaller screen. It makes it top and bottom.

Standard desktop computer with a 14" monitor. 1024 x 768 pixels. And yes, it's top to bottom on my screen.

You guys with the newfangled hi-res widescreen monitors are spoiled...:P


A 14" monitor is a mobile device. :)

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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby waauw on Sun May 19, 2013 4:04 pm

patches70 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
patches70 wrote:Representative currency protects against deflation, inflation, hyperinflation and monetary policy abuses (the latter was the main cause of the Great Depression BTW) but it can't be manipulated easily.
That's why governments hate such currency, because they can't control it like they can fiat currency. Bankers hate such currency because they can't lend what they want with money they create out of thin air. And things that bankers and governments hate can't be all bad!
I'm all for a sound money, and it doesn't have to be representative of gold.


I agree with this, but if not the Gold Standard, what would it be representative of?


Oh there are lots of things that the currency can be tied to. Ancient Egypt got to be the richest nation at the time by tying their money to wheat.*
If we were to tie our currency to precious metals, then it shouldn't be to only gold. Who owns all the gold? The Central banks. And they're hoarding it.** If we base our currency to PMs then it should include not only gold but also silver and copper. That would give a decently large supply of money for our needs (if we weren't wasteful) and would make it very hard for any one group to control all three of those PMs.

But you could tie the money to anything, so long as what it's tied to is a resource that requires effort to collect.

But there have been all kinds of alternative economic systems and some very successful. Those during modern times have always been suppressed by TPTB and Central banks who want to maintain their monopoly on the foundation of civilization.*** Money is the representation of all your efforts, work, sweat and blood and most importantly, your time. Having a currency there you know exactly what all your efforts will be worth in the future is a very stabilizing foundation.
Our current system, your efforts are worth less and less every day where you must spend more time, more effort to gain what you used to in the past.
This is why we have two income families that are still barely scraping to get by when in the past one income was more than enough. It's because the measurement of those efforts has been debased constantly so that the State and the banks can meet their goals. All too often their interests are not in the individuals best interest. And it causes all kinds of problems right on down the line. From political to social to moral and ethical issues.
Where today there are Too Big to Fail institutions, people and groups, we individuals are too small to succeed. Because our efforts are constantly being stolen day after day through currency devaluation. Representative currencies make this a much harder thing to do by TPTB.


*You know the old bible story about the famine in the land where Joseph told Pharaoh there would be seven good years and seven lean years. Pharaoh tied his money to wheat and in the good years he collected lots of wheat and stored it safely. When the famine came every nation came to Egypt to purchase grains. Egypt grew fabulously wealthy because they had a huge abundance.
What isn't really gone into with the story is the economic system in Egypt at the time. Payments were made in grain. They had a representative currency where anyone could turn in their currency at the royal granaries and receive a set amount of grain. The currency was backed by grain, a resource vital for survival so Egyptian currency was prized by everyone.
It wasn't a currency you'd be familiar with today, the Egyptians didn't strike gold coins (at the time). Likely their currency was clay tablets or something, but we know it was all tied directly to the amount of grain held.
When other nations who were starving came to Egypt, they traded gold, lumber, virtually anything of value to get that food. And Egypt got rich beyond belief because they had based their monetary system on a resource, instead of a fiat currency or a precious metal.
Joseph's story of being a prophet one can take as they will, but in truth Egypt did grow very wealthy during an especially bad time famine wise and we know for a fact that they tied their economic system to grain. And they prospered greatly while the rest of the world struggled.
Consider, agriculture was the base of society at the time. A famine would be the equivalent of a depression, would it not? Yet, Egypt grew wealthy anyway, because they had a sound economic system at the time and used it wisely.
And that is the crux, using one's system wisely. Sound money doesn't help people who live beyond their means or who are foolish with what they spend on.


** One must always remember, the Gold Standard Golden Rule- He who owns the gold makes the rules.


***The latest incarnation is the Bitcoin which is now in the process of being taken over and regulated by TPTB. I could go into that issue in depth. Suffice it to say, investing in Bitcoins isn't a safe thing to do at this time. But to each his own I suppose.


I agree that having a gold standard could a good thing, however I don't entirely agree with your suggestion of copper and to a lesser degree silver. Copper is a metal too abundant in the earths crust. If one would go on a copper standard(even partially), the amounts of copper mined annually would skyrocket, hence resulting in more moneyprinting.

Another problem with copper is that it's a metal that is too important for our industry, the same goes for silver actually. A copper or silver standard might result in higher prices for both metals and more inflow into the monetary markets rather into the markets of tangible goods.

But why not a currency system as proposed by Friedrich Hayek. Let the free market work. Get rid of central banks and let the markets create their own currencies. This way people will get to pick between multiple currencies. They will be forced to learn more about it and if ever any monetary institution would misbehave(expansionary policy), then the people would simply drop that currency and jump to another.

Of course you could also just create a system where gold and silver once again become legal tender. Let the central banks have their fiat currency but let the people have the option to pay in precious metals. Basically you'd still have the same system as today, except people get a legally accepted safetynet.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby patches70 on Sun May 19, 2013 4:41 pm

waauw wrote:I agree that having a gold standard could a good thing, however I don't entirely agree with your suggestion of copper and to a lesser degree silver. Copper is a metal too abundant in the earths crust. If one would go on a copper standard(even partially), the amounts of copper mined annually would skyrocket, hence resulting in more moneyprinting.


The thing with gold is there isn't enough of it. It's scarcity makes it ripe for manipulation. Adding silver alleviates some of that, but I'm just thinking about the amount of money that will actually be needed. When you tie your currency to something it will be very desirable to have. I'll get into some problems with that in a moment.

waauw wrote:Another problem with copper is that it's a metal that is too important for our industry, the same goes for silver actually. A copper or silver standard might result in higher prices for both metals and more inflow into the monetary markets rather into the markets of tangible goods.


Sure, if we went to a gold and silver standard today, silver's price would be about 1/16th the price of gold, aroundabouts. That would be a significant increase in the price of silver, obviously, but that price would stay stable, a lot more so than the value of fiat currency. One can only mine but so much silver after all. And they are both important to industry, as is gold BTW. It has intrinsic value as well.

waauw wrote:But why not a currency system as proposed by Friedrich Hayek. Let the free market work. Get rid of central banks and let the markets create their own currencies. This way people will get to pick between multiple currencies. They will be forced to learn more about it and if ever any monetary institution would misbehave(expansionary policy), then the people would simply drop that currency and jump to another.


Sure, that's an alternative. Those issuing the currency would protect it, lest people leave it.



waaua wrote:Of course you could also just create a system where gold and silver once again become legal tender. Let the central banks have their fiat currency but let the people have the option to pay in precious metals. Basically you'd still have the same system as today, except people get a legally accepted safetynet.


The problem with that is Gresham's law. Bad money drives out good money.

You have a store, a person comes in and has fiat dollars and gold dollars. Which would you prefer to have?
Conversely, if you have fiat dollars and gold dollars and you wish to purchase something, which dollars will you spend?

You'd spend the fiat dollars of course. The gold dollars would be stashed away quickly, would they not? You'd spend the fiat dollars before they lost value and you'd hold onto the gold because over time it will increase in value.

And thus in no time at all all the gold legal tender would soon disappear from the market place as people hoard it. In the end you'd have all the producers holding the gold and all the consumers holding the fiat dollars. The Central banks also would have a horrible advantage in that they'd print fiat dollars and buy gold with it. Like they are now.

It's best to do away with the central banks all together. Don't allow them to create money out of thin air. That's too much power for any small group of people to have. Use a currency that is strictly based on the amount of whatever resource they are tied to. People will labor hard to acquire the means of producing more of that resource as well.

The problem we have today is that The Fed is creating some $85 billion a month just to keep the economy propped up. At some point they'll have to stop doing that and everything comes crashing down and we'll see that this "recovery" is all based on smoke and mirrors. It will be a rude awakening for most people. Those who have prepared, well, they'll do just fine.

In the past, it was gold and silver as the base. That is dollars were tied to gold. The gold was held in reserves and silver was coined as well. I'm only saying to put copper in there so we have enough of a resource to have an adequate monetary base. So it would be the dollar tied to gold, silver and copper coined to supplement the gold back dollars.
I dunno, I'm always thinking of other alternatives to the unstable fiat system which is really just a 1,000 year old scam. The fiat system benefits only the bankers. Everyone else is fated to become debt slaves.

Not that the current money powers will easily give up their monopoly, will they? That's another hurdle to deal with, but I think if people truly understood where our current currency system comes from, how it works, they'd understand how bad it really is. How much most people have to suffer for it while a tiny percentage continue to suck the wealth and real assets away from thew whole.
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Re: Is Phatscotty a Republican?

Postby Lootifer on Sun May 19, 2013 4:57 pm

Alternatively you could also work at building a transparent government and central bank you can trust...

I would suggest thats an easier path than trying (and undoubtedly failing) to change from established fiat currencies.
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