liberalism in the USA

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liberalism in the USA

Postby waauw on Sat May 18, 2013 5:37 am

Hey, I'm a european and I'm a firm believer in the liberal set of values. However I've noticed that on the internet there seem to be a lot of americans using "liberalism" as an insult.

Therefor I would like to ask americans here to tell me why there are so many americans who hate liberalism? I can only assume it's not the same reason why some europeans hate liberalism. In europe it's people looking from a socialist perspective who hate liberalism, however the US being so anti-socialist I guess it has another reason?
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 5:46 am

conservatives and republicans in the U.S. hate liberalism.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby waauw on Sat May 18, 2013 5:50 am

ooge wrote:conservatives and republicans in the U.S. hate liberalism.


ok, but why? I ask this because I honestly don't know.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 6:02 am

waauw wrote:
ooge wrote:conservatives and republicans in the U.S. hate liberalism.


ok, but why? I ask this because I honestly don't know.


To lengthy to answer,ask yourself what liberalism is and think why someone would hate it. Hint they hate Social security as well. another clue look up Ayn Rand.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby waauw on Sat May 18, 2013 6:31 am

ooge wrote:
waauw wrote:
ooge wrote:conservatives and republicans in the U.S. hate liberalism.


ok, but why? I ask this because I honestly don't know.


To lengthy to answer,ask yourself what liberalism is and think why someone would hate it. Hint they hate Social security as well. another clue look up Ayn Rand.


social security has nothing to do with liberalism. It's an element of socialism...
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 6:38 am

waauw wrote:
ooge wrote:
waauw wrote:
ooge wrote:conservatives and republicans in the U.S. hate liberalism.


ok, but why? I ask this because I honestly don't know.


To lengthy to answer,ask yourself what liberalism is and think why someone would hate it. Hint they hate Social security as well. another clue look up Ayn Rand.


social security has nothing to do with liberalism. It's an element of socialism...


in the US those who hate liberalism, tie socialism and liberalism together.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat May 18, 2013 7:26 am

waauw wrote:Hey, I'm a european and I'm a firm believer in the liberal set of values. However I've noticed that on the internet there seem to be a lot of americans using "liberalism" as an insult.

Therefor I would like to ask americans here to tell me why there are so many americans who hate liberalism? I can only assume it's not the same reason why some europeans hate liberalism. In europe it's people looking from a socialist perspective who hate liberalism, however the US being so anti-socialist I guess it has another reason?


"Liberal" in America means "welfare liberal" or "Rawlsian liberal." It's the political ideology which favors government intervention for the goal of promoting some standard of living for poorer people.

"Liberalism" doesn't mean exactly the same thing though. Wiki gets its right:

    Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis)[1] is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas such as free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free trade, and private property.[4][5][6][7][8]

However, by "equality," they mean the classical meaning: "political equality"--not economic equality, which is a goal associated with welfare liberalism, egalitarianism, socialism, etc.


(ooge doesn't make much sense. He's promoting a distorted view in order to make others perceive that his favored ideology is totes better than other ideologies in the US).
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby saxitoxin on Sat May 18, 2013 8:22 am

waauw wrote:Hey, I'm a european and I'm a firm believer in the liberal set of values. However I've noticed that on the internet there seem to be a lot of americans using "liberalism" as an insult.

Therefor I would like to ask americans here to tell me why there are so many americans who hate liberalism? I can only assume it's not the same reason why some europeans hate liberalism. In europe it's people looking from a socialist perspective who hate liberalism, however the US being so anti-socialist I guess it has another reason?


In American English the word "liberal" is used to refer to social-democracy, unlike Belgium and the rest of the world where it refers to ideas of limited government and market economics.

"Liberal," in the U.S., has evolved into a folk word with a local meaning. (Like how "souper" means someting different in Belgian French than real French.)
Last edited by saxitoxin on Sat May 18, 2013 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 9:00 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
waauw wrote:Hey, I'm a european and I'm a firm believer in the liberal set of values. However I've noticed that on the internet there seem to be a lot of americans using "liberalism" as an insult.

Therefor I would like to ask americans here to tell me why there are so many americans who hate liberalism? I can only assume it's not the same reason why some europeans hate liberalism. In europe it's people looking from a socialist perspective who hate liberalism, however the US being so anti-socialist I guess it has another reason?


"Liberal" in America means "welfare liberal" or "Rawlsian liberal." It's the political ideology which favors government intervention for the goal of promoting some standard of living for poorer people.

"Liberalism" doesn't mean exactly the same thing though. Wiki gets its right:

    Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis)[1] is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas such as free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free trade, and private property.[4][5][6][7][8]

However, by "equality," they mean the classical meaning: "political equality"--not economic equality, which is a goal associated with welfare liberalism, egalitarianism, socialism, etc.


(ooge doesn't make much sense. He's promoting a distorted view in order to make others perceive that his favored ideology is totes better than other ideologies in the US).
Last edited by ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 10:57 am

ooge wrote:conservatives and republicans in the U.S. hate liberalism.


In the United States, a lot of Democrats would appear to hate liberalism, as well.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 11:11 am

Woodruff wrote:
ooge wrote:conservatives and republicans in the U.S. hate liberalism.


In the United States, a lot of Democrats would appear to hate liberalism, as well.


sad but true
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 11:36 am

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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 12:55 pm

ooge wrote:


LOL, there's enough editing in the first 30 second of your clip to make John Stewart wet his pants. If you want to get the message you are looking for, sure check out the edited with malicious intent version. Or, you can go the Phatscotty way, and watch the full interview, in context (no answers are edited to appear as a response to a totally different question than was asked) Whoever made that video is a liar and purposefully trying to confuse the message.



Quick message to the OP, Liberal is usually used in a very general sense. If we want to get technical about it, I am a classic Liberal. However, Liberal used to be a negative word. I would know it was used to bash me the same way you see me bashed today as a right winger. The most correct understanding of what we are talking about, if this originated from the education thread, is to understand Progressivism. Progressivism is strongest on the left, but deeply pervades the right as well. There are many Progressive Republicans, and they are just as bad as the Progressive Democrats.

Obama is Progressive to the core, Romney also is a Progressive, just not as much. Huckabee is a Progressive, so is Clinton. Ron Paul is the definition of a everything a Progressive isn't, Gary Johnson too.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Sat May 18, 2013 4:18 pm

Op, ol' phats is NOT a classic liberal. He just fancies himself as such.

BBS and saxi summed it up nicely- there's a divergence of global lib. and american lib.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby / on Sat May 18, 2013 5:33 pm

The following is pretty much a cross between a wild guess and an opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

From what I’ve seen, the large majority of Americans are moderates, perhaps with one or two issues that feel strongly about. The two major parties of Democrat and Republican are basically identical in their core rhetoric; listen to any politician from either party talk, and they will both say basically the same things.

The loud fringe extremists however have no power by themselves whenever they start their own fringe extremist party, so instead they join either the Republicans or the Democrats.

That’s why you will see the following “variants” in the parties.
-Religious Zealot Republicans that believe we were but on the earth to eradicate heathens, sodomites, and anyone who doesn’t want their chosen religious book to be the ultimate codex of perfect law until the end of time.
-Ultra Patriot Nationalist Republicans who want old timey propaganda posters on every street, and anyone foreign or subversive shipped off to a deserted island.
-Paranoid Survivalist Republicans who tell you that you need live in a cave and start making pipe bombs before the government come to get you.
-Corporate Robber Baron Republicans who want to extremely specifically abolish anything that would stop their company from getting all the money/power/goods/slaves in the world.

-Ultra Authoritarian Democrats who believe humans should live under constant surveillance and control lest riots erupt in the streets.
-Revolutionary Democrats that want to go out, start riots, and break anything they see as being part of “The Man” or “The System” keeping everyone down.
- Politically Correct Democrats who believe that anything offensive to anyone should be banned, even if it means taking a monk’s vow of silence.
- Nature Worshiping Democrats that would prefer we lived as animals without any tools, medicines, houses, or farming techniques that could affect the environment in any way.

Now don’t think I’m insulting either party, as I've said before none of those fringe groups are a part of their core ideologies, in fact, most of them contradict each other, and if they had formed their own parties instead, would likely be natural enemies. The problem is that the parties don’t want to lose votes, so they pander to the fringe. The opposing party sees that, and mistakenly assumes the other side is the fringe, as a reaction, they take the other side, even if the other side doesn't make any sense.

In the end, after the public has been conditioned with an “Us vs. Them” mentality, they begin to blur all the lines together through a series of logical fallacies, coming to some strange conclusions.
Everyone on the red team=Republican=conservative
Everyone on the blue team=Democrat=liberal
So, yeah, I think that’s pretty much who an American is talking about when they say that they hate the “Liberals” as a sweeping generalization.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat May 18, 2013 5:38 pm

waauw wrote:Hey, I'm a european and I'm a firm believer in the liberal set of values. However I've noticed that on the internet there seem to be a lot of americans using "liberalism" as an insult.

Therefor I would like to ask americans here to tell me why there are so many americans who hate liberalism? I can only assume it's not the same reason why some europeans hate liberalism. In europe it's people looking from a socialist perspective who hate liberalism, however the US being so anti-socialist I guess it has another reason?

You have to go back to a bit before the time Reagan was elected. That was when there was this group that called itself the "Moral Majority" became a laughing stock because they were truly anything but a majority. Except.... shortly after that you began to see a very serious, but subtle shift in how things were referred to. Unions were a threat to the big business "powers that be", the "establishment", if you will, but average Americans were very pro-union, so tromping on union rights was a bad political move. HOWEVER. a lot of those union members were church-going family folks, so touting "family values" did work, and that is what they did. Initially they denounced homosexuality, but that did not take as well as some would have liked. They succeeded in spades by opposing abortion and being "anti drugs". (its in paranthesis because a lot of that "war" actually turned a tolerable situation into something downright nasty, but it played well outside of those areas where kids schools were being sprayed with chemicals and public forests were seeing Vietnam-style booby traps).

We also saw a change in the view of immigration. Suddenly the focus on "America, the land of immigrants" became "America, home to a bunch of illegal aliens". "Border Security" became an issue -- never mind that the real breaches threatening us had little to do with Mexicans wanting to get jobs here.


The environment was more nuanced, but we had just gone through a large period of perceived deprivation, overstated warnings of doom due to the loss of oil... and, well, the world did not end when the teens of the sixties grew up and had kids of their own. IN fact, a lot of them grew up and decided they LIKED big houses and stock portfolios. Unlike in Europe a lot of the US economy really does and has still depended upon not just the use, but production of natural resources like timber. Prices of paper escalated, Japanese needs drove the cost of timber up and there was a boom in logging. There were a few blips, like the spotted owl bit (really about salmon and huge areas of land denuded, but that's another whole story). Out west, the issue of timber was heavily contentious during this period -- and by "contentious", I mean death threats, a few actual killings and a lot of general nastiness.

Anyway, the sum is that a group of political minds bending conservative decided that changing the actual language used would convince people to go conservative.,, and it worked.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat May 18, 2013 5:51 pm

ooge wrote:
waauw wrote:
ooge wrote:
waauw wrote:
ooge wrote:conservatives and republicans in the U.S. hate liberalism.


ok, but why? I ask this because I honestly don't know.


To lengthy to answer,ask yourself what liberalism is and think why someone would hate it. Hint they hate Social security as well. another clue look up Ayn Rand.


social security has nothing to do with liberalism. It's an element of socialism...


in the US those who hate liberalism, tie socialism and liberalism together.

The tie-in is that the group that has put itself forward originally as conservative, but more tending more to claim liberaterianism or Tea partyism, etc.... they are all against the government doing much of anything and purport to be about individual freedom. Unfortunately, it is really just a cover for a bunch of folks at the top who plain just want money and are making lots of it on the backs of everyone else. Any dime that goes to social service, maintaining infrastructure or anything other than their pockets is "waste"; or, if they get to take credit, "charity".

Add in a fair measure of home-schooling that actively advocates NOT learning real science, particularly anything about interdependence of species (which includes evolution), and anything about limits to human activities (aka global warming is considered a "controversy" here in the US, even though it is actually not a controversy at all among scientists. A lot of that education sort of goes back to old ideas about Christianity and basically that humans can do as they like because "God made us".

Not every home-schooler and certainly not every Christian agrees with the above, but those that do think that way have effectively created an "us versus" them "battle" where all Christians are on the "side of good" and therefore need to go along with some of the more fringe elements in the name of faith. It has become a kind of "self-fulfilling" pronouncement.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby tzor on Sat May 18, 2013 9:05 pm

waauw wrote:Hey, I'm a european and I'm a firm believer in the liberal set of values. However I've noticed that on the internet there seem to be a lot of americans using "liberalism" as an insult.


One of the biggest problems in U.S. history is the attempt to flat out steal terms by some groups because of the fact that they had worn out their previous label. For a large portion of the mid 20th century, the "progressive" movement stole the term "liberal." Progressives are no more liberal than crony capitalists are conservative. But that is what you get when you ask "who are liberals" in the US.

To give a good example of the potentially radical difference in the two terms. I would classify the former Mayor Ed Koch as a true liberal. I would consider and classify Mayor Mike Bloomberg as a true progressive.

As a conservative who didn't always agree with his policies, I consider the former one of the finest Mayors NYC ever had. I consider the later one of the worst. I'm pretty sure that Ed would disagree with most, if not all of Nanny State Bloomberg's attempt to force people to do things.

So effectively, we have definition problems. We use "liberal" differently.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby ooge on Sat May 18, 2013 10:41 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
ooge wrote:


LOL, there's enough editing in the first 30 second of your clip to make John Stewart wet his pants. If you want to get the message you are looking for, sure check out the edited with malicious intent version. Or, you can go the Phatscotty way, and watch the full interview, in context (no answers are edited to appear as a response to a totally different question than was asked) Whoever made that video is a liar and purposefully trying to confuse the message.



Quick message to the OP, Liberal is usually used in a very general sense. If we want to get technical about it, I am a classic Liberal. However, Liberal used to be a negative word. I would know it was used to bash me the same way you see me bashed today as a right winger. The most correct understanding of what we are talking about, if this originated from the education thread, is to understand Progressivism. Progressivism is strongest on the left, but deeply pervades the right as well. There are many Progressive Republicans, and they are just as bad as the Progressive Democrats.

Obama is Progressive to the core, Romney also is a Progressive, just not as much. Huckabee is a Progressive, so is Clinton. Ron Paul is the definition of a everything a Progressive isn't, Gary Johnson too.


I knew your short attention span would not be able to watch the full clip,hence the short version. so you a Ayn rand supporter,we already know you love Ayn Rand Paul
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 11:16 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Ron Paul is the definition of a everything a Progressive isn't, Gary Johnson too.


Which is almost certainly why you refused to vote for Gary Johnson.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 11:19 pm

/ wrote:From what I’ve seen, the large majority of Americans are moderates, perhaps with one or two issues that feel strongly about. The two major parties of Democrat and Republican are basically identical in their core rhetoric; listen to any politician from either party talk, and they will both say basically the same things.


While I agree with you that the two major parties are basically identical in their core rhetoric, I do not consider them to be moderates. Rather, I consider both parties to be to the right of center.

/ wrote:The opposing party sees that, and mistakenly assumes the other side is the fringe, as a reaction, they take the other side, even if the other side doesn't make any sense.


Both parties have moved to the right since Reagan, in my opinion, rather than any back-and-forth.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 18, 2013 11:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ron Paul is the definition of a everything a Progressive isn't, Gary Johnson too.


Which is almost certainly why you refused to vote for Gary Johnson.


If I had voted for Gary Johnson, WHAT WOULD THAT CHANGE? LMAO!!

meh, pretty sure it had to do with recognizing nobody even knows who Gary Johnson is, as well as a lack of effort IMO.

Ron Paul had a much better shot and made a much larger impact. In short, I couldn't add a vote to the 2% GJ got because I was too busy helping win an entire state for Ron Paul. He is way ahead of Gary.

I think the Ron Paul path is a much more realistic one, and I made that decision a long time ago.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 11:23 pm

ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
ooge wrote:


LOL, there's enough editing in the first 30 second of your clip to make John Stewart wet his pants. If you want to get the message you are looking for, sure check out the edited with malicious intent version. Or, you can go the Phatscotty way, and watch the full interview, in context (no answers are edited to appear as a response to a totally different question than was asked) Whoever made that video is a liar and purposefully trying to confuse the message.



Quick message to the OP, Liberal is usually used in a very general sense. If we want to get technical about it, I am a classic Liberal. However, Liberal used to be a negative word. I would know it was used to bash me the same way you see me bashed today as a right winger. The most correct understanding of what we are talking about, if this originated from the education thread, is to understand Progressivism. Progressivism is strongest on the left, but deeply pervades the right as well. There are many Progressive Republicans, and they are just as bad as the Progressive Democrats.

Obama is Progressive to the core, Romney also is a Progressive, just not as much. Huckabee is a Progressive, so is Clinton. Ron Paul is the definition of a everything a Progressive isn't, Gary Johnson too.


I knew your short attention span would not be able to watch the full clip,hence the short version. so you a Ayn rand supporter,we already know you love Ayn Rand Paul


I haven't watched either of those clips (yours or his). But this exchange leads me to wonder if you watched his and, if you did, is there the marked difference that he states there is in the responses?
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 18, 2013 11:25 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ron Paul is the definition of a everything a Progressive isn't, Gary Johnson too.


Which is almost certainly why you refused to vote for Gary Johnson.


If I had voted for Gary Johnson, WHAT WOULD THAT CHANGE? LMAO!!


Your credibility may have a changed a bit.

Phatscotty wrote:meh, pretty sure it had to do with recognizing nobody even knows who Gary Johnson is, as well as a lack of effort IMO.


Gosh, I wonder why nobody even knows who he is. Could it be because nobody will vote for him? You're a self-fulfilling prophecy against your own alleged interests, which tells me and anyone who is paying attention that either those really aren't your own interests (that's my bet) or that you're simply available to the highest bidder.

Phatscotty wrote:Ron Paul had a much better shot and made a much larger impact. In short, I couldn't add a vote to the 2% GJ got because I was too busy helping win an entire state for Ron Paul. He is way ahead of Gary.


Gary was still running when Ron Paul dropped out of the race, so that's a pretty ignorant set of statements.

Phatscotty wrote:I think the Ron Paul path is a much more realistic one, and I made that decision a long time ago.


The decision to be a sellout must have come fairly easily for you.
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Re: liberalism in the USA

Postby / on Sat May 18, 2013 11:28 pm

Woodruff wrote:
/ wrote:From what I’ve seen, the large majority of Americans are moderates, perhaps with one or two issues that feel strongly about. The two major parties of Democrat and Republican are basically identical in their core rhetoric; listen to any politician from either party talk, and they will both say basically the same things.


While I agree with you that the two major parties are basically identical in their core rhetoric, I do not consider them to be moderates. Rather, I consider both parties to be to the right of center.

/ wrote:The opposing party sees that, and mistakenly assumes the other side is the fringe, as a reaction, they take the other side, even if the other side doesn't make any sense.


Both parties have moved to the right since Reagan, in my opinion, rather than any back-and-forth.

It's possible, though I suppose it changes relative to era.
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