76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Teflon Kris on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:58 pm

saxitoxin wrote: ... the median income of $52,000 would be considered ...


...a rich man almost anywhere else in the world.

So, please, all emigrate, ...

... then your economic control rip-off con merchant trick empire dies ...

... and the whole world is better off :-)
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Crazyirishman on Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:13 pm

Does the definition change for college students? I know that when I work in the summer, I earn enough that I could survive. i.e. rent, car insurance, food for more than 6 months after I've worked for duration of the summer. But then, I pay tuition.... and bam! I'm poor again. Is that paycheck to paycheck?
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby benga on Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 pm

wow only 76%!

at least some countries are doing great
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:39 pm

nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice.


Up to that point it was accurate, except they don't waste it, jut decide to spend it in whatever they like in the moment.


that's waste if you ask me. That fly-by-night attitude can only be enjoyed at the expense of the future. when all of a sudden you get a flat tire or miss a day of work on your check, if you have a rich mommy and daddy to give you/borrow you money, then I can understand all that. Many do not have that option though, and they are either forced to learn the value of money and how to manage it as best they can, or they give up and prescribe themselves a victim, and that can justify a lot more bad decision making other than "living in the moment"/surrendering to every impulse.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby nietzsche on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:14 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice.


Up to that point it was accurate, except they don't waste it, jut decide to spend it in whatever they like in the moment.


that's waste if you ask me. That fly-by-night attitude can only be enjoyed at the expense of the future. when all of a sudden you get a flat tire or miss a day of work on your check, if you have a rich mommy and daddy to give you/borrow you money, then I can understand all that. Many do not have that option though, and they are either forced to learn the value of money and how to manage it as best they can, or they give up and prescribe themselves a victim, and that can justify a lot more bad decision making other than "living in the moment"/surrendering to every impulse.


I'd say your hate towards those with that attitude comes from a fear of being in that position. If it was a healthy drive towards saving for a rainy day, you wouldn't need to be talking about them, you'd just go about your day happily knowing that you are doing what you want.

And I say that because I'm of a similar disposition, well, my whole family is, and I was raised that way, but then something happens, and you realize it's not worth it to be saving all that money cause you'll die anyway. What it's more important that saving is investing in yourself so that you can have a big enough income that even though rainy day comes, you can recover.

Hate is always a front for fear.
Last edited by nietzsche on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:16 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice. I know more then a few people who can't hold onto a dollar if their life depended on it, it actually does burn holes in their pockets, and many people are too lazy to stretch their dollars out or look for deals or negotiate rents and bills and services or simply refuse to go without HBO-Showtime package and the HD upgrade.

Every time most of us get an opportunity to get ahead, we instead up our services/consumption. It also makes sense in an economic environment where the savings rate cannot even outperform inflation, so who wants to hold onto money anyways right?


Sure, all of that is true, in my opinion, as well. The difference is that I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing for those who choose to live that way, as long as they're not putting themselves into debt doing it (which is a very different matter). Is it a risky proposition? Absolutely. But if they're in a career where it doesn't matter because either there are massive numbers of similar jobs available (fast food, etc) or their job is highly specialized and not overflowing with workers, then it's not even so risky really.

For more people there just IS no choice. The few dollars that could be saved (I mean many of my current and former coworkers who have less than $100 a month for anything other then basic necessities) are not enough to matter. When saving even that much means cutting every last dollar from your food budget, doing without TV, music, internet (except what you can get for free from your local library -- and that only if you can walk or drive on the way to a necessary location), the cost is very high. In today's society, no money means little contact with other people. Unless you live in a larger city, it means not doing much of anything-- -EVER. (no museums, no zoos, no parks, rarely seeing people outside of work.. etc.). Its a recipe for depression.

When you know that you can go through all that and have it all wiped out because of one moderate illness or injury or one unexpected major repair, then the incentive to save shrinks.

(and no, I am not talking about my self, I AM talking about co-workers, some of whom I am attempting to help make better financial choices in small ways).
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:17 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice.


Up to that point it was accurate, except they don't waste it, jut decide to spend it in whatever they like in the moment.


that's waste if you ask me. That fly-by-night attitude can only be enjoyed at the expense of the future. when all of a sudden you get a flat tire or miss a day of work on your check, if you have a rich mommy and daddy to give you/borrow you money, then I can understand all that. Many do not have that option though, and they are either forced to learn the value of money and how to manage it as best they can, or they give up and prescribe themselves a victim, and that can justify a lot more bad decision making other than "living in the moment"/surrendering to every impulse.

I see, and if working and saving mean you STILL don't have the money for that major repair or illness, then what?

At some point, people just need to make more. That "point" is now. Expecting people to survive on $7.35 an hour is not a joke, its a tragedy.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Timminz on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:24 pm

I was for many years, then I wasn't for a while, now I would be if I had a paycheck, then I will be again, and then I won't FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE DAGNABIT!

ps. I'm using the real meaning of paycheck to paycheck. Meaning, using up all (or almost all) of a paycheck before the next one arrives.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby notyou2 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:46 pm

I have to pimp out my dog to survive.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:07 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice.


Up to that point it was accurate, except they don't waste it, jut decide to spend it in whatever they like in the moment.


that's waste if you ask me. That fly-by-night attitude can only be enjoyed at the expense of the future. when all of a sudden you get a flat tire or miss a day of work on your check, if you have a rich mommy and daddy to give you/borrow you money, then I can understand all that. Many do not have that option though, and they are either forced to learn the value of money and how to manage it as best they can, or they give up and prescribe themselves a victim, and that can justify a lot more bad decision making other than "living in the moment"/surrendering to every impulse.

I see, and if working and saving mean you STILL don't have the money for that major repair or illness, then what?

At some point, people just need to make more. That "point" is now. Expecting people to survive on $7.35 an hour is not a joke, its a tragedy.


I don't think it's as simple as that. As soon as wages go up, so do prices....That is just playing into the inflation game, where the poor are always the biggest losers. Don't get me wrong I completely understand what you mean, but, are there any other options? Like, maybe we could make the same amount, but our dollar would be stronger and could go further? Look at how it was in the 70's and 80's. College students could work during the summer and make enough to pay for their own tuition and room and board and graduate with little to no student debt.

and 7.35 is an entry level position, and is a wage that requires little to no skill at all. 90% of people who start there move up to 8$ within the first 6-12 months, if not the first 60 days.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:19 pm

nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice.


Up to that point it was accurate, except they don't waste it, jut decide to spend it in whatever they like in the moment.


that's waste if you ask me. That fly-by-night attitude can only be enjoyed at the expense of the future. when all of a sudden you get a flat tire or miss a day of work on your check, if you have a rich mommy and daddy to give you/borrow you money, then I can understand all that. Many do not have that option though, and they are either forced to learn the value of money and how to manage it as best they can, or they give up and prescribe themselves a victim, and that can justify a lot more bad decision making other than "living in the moment"/surrendering to every impulse.


I'd say your hate towards those with that attitude comes from a fear of being in that position. If it was a healthy drive towards saving for a rainy day, you wouldn't need to be talking about them, you'd just go about your day happily knowing that you are doing what you want.

And I say that because I'm of a similar disposition, well, my whole family is, and I was raised that way, but then something happens, and you realize it's not worth it to be saving all that money cause you'll die anyway. What it's more important that saving is investing in yourself so that you can have a big enough income that even though rainy day comes, you can recover.

Hate is always a front for fear.


It's not hate. Lulz. I don't deny fear though, I am human. It's what we do with out fear that matters.

You are right and you are wrong, and I do agree with your premise that's living c2c is not necc a bad thing, it's when it impacts other people that it becomes a problem. If it were true that people suffered the consequences of their own actions and reaped the benefits of their own risks/work/time, then yes I would not have a single care in the world how smart or foolishly a person spends their money. it's none of my business and they are free to do what they want...

but, when I am forced to pay for other peoples foolish mistakes, and I believe that only encourages them to continue making more and bigger mistakes, yes I have a problem and as a taxpayer I have a right to say "this is BS, it's not helping anyone, it's actually hurting them and enabling poor decision making"

IE, people make poor decisions when someone else is picking up the tab.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby TheProwler on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:21 am

I need food.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:39 am

Phatscotty wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice.


Up to that point it was accurate, except they don't waste it, jut decide to spend it in whatever they like in the moment.


that's waste if you ask me. That fly-by-night attitude can only be enjoyed at the expense of the future.


If a person dies before they reach the age of fifty, is all of that savings going to help them enjoy their life?

See, just because it's a waste TO YOU doesn't mean it's a waste.

Phatscotty wrote:and that can justify a lot more bad decision making other than "living in the moment"/surrendering to every impulse.


You don't seem to have a good handle on the discussion.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:41 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice. I know more then a few people who can't hold onto a dollar if their life depended on it, it actually does burn holes in their pockets, and many people are too lazy to stretch their dollars out or look for deals or negotiate rents and bills and services or simply refuse to go without HBO-Showtime package and the HD upgrade.

Every time most of us get an opportunity to get ahead, we instead up our services/consumption. It also makes sense in an economic environment where the savings rate cannot even outperform inflation, so who wants to hold onto money anyways right?


Sure, all of that is true, in my opinion, as well. The difference is that I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing for those who choose to live that way, as long as they're not putting themselves into debt doing it (which is a very different matter). Is it a risky proposition? Absolutely. But if they're in a career where it doesn't matter because either there are massive numbers of similar jobs available (fast food, etc) or their job is highly specialized and not overflowing with workers, then it's not even so risky really.


For more people there just IS no choice.


Then it's irrelevant to the point I'm making. I really wish you'd stop doing that. It seems to have become habitual with you.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby waauw on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:40 am

Crazyirishman wrote:Does the definition change for college students? I know that when I work in the summer, I earn enough that I could survive. i.e. rent, car insurance, food for more than 6 months after I've worked for duration of the summer. But then, I pay tuition.... and bam! I'm poor again. Is that paycheck to paycheck?


I dunno, but I know that according to the current system people who have a job, no matter how low they get payed or how low their hours are, they get counted as being employed(though I'm not sure whether students count too).
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby chang50 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:01 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:many people who live paycheck to paycheck waste most of their money.

For many I think it's a life choice.


Up to that point it was accurate, except they don't waste it, jut decide to spend it in whatever they like in the moment.


that's waste if you ask me. That fly-by-night attitude can only be enjoyed at the expense of the future. when all of a sudden you get a flat tire or miss a day of work on your check, if you have a rich mommy and daddy to give you/borrow you money, then I can understand all that. Many do not have that option though, and they are either forced to learn the value of money and how to manage it as best they can, or they give up and prescribe themselves a victim, and that can justify a lot more bad decision making other than "living in the moment"/surrendering to every impulse.

I see, and if working and saving mean you STILL don't have the money for that major repair or illness, then what?

At some point, people just need to make more. That "point" is now. Expecting people to survive on $7.35 an hour is not a joke, its a tragedy.



How big a tragedy is working for a minimum wage that was just increased from 200 baht ($6.50)to 300 baht ($9.75) PER DAY?
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby patrickaa317 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:22 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:At some point, people just need to make more. That "point" is now. Expecting people to survive on $7.35 an hour is not a joke, its a tragedy.


Noone expects anyone to survive on minimum wage. That is an entry level position that should be obtained while living with your parents, a college dorm, or a small apartment with a couple friends out of high school. Once in the workforce, people are expected to take the initiative to prove themselves and increase their knowledge (with today's technology, this can easily be done on our own unlike back in the day when it was more difficult though more people did it). This will increase a person's opportunities for careers in the future.

The amount an employer pays you is comparable to your replace-ability. (With the exception of unions and government workers where they pay based on seniority rather than skill-set, or the have a larger budget and simply overpay a majority of the workforce in comparison to the private sector). People who work in fast food, cashiering jobs, etc can easily be replaced by other entry level workers, with a day or two of training. If they can get someone to do it for $7.35/hour, they will never hire someone for $20/hour to do it. The key thing to remember is that people do not start up businesses simply to give other people jobs. If you think this is why the majority of businesses are started, I encourage you to start your own business and hire 3-5 people with low level skill-sets and pay them what they need to live on rather than the market price for that level employee.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby waauw on Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:04 am

Maybe the big question at hand should be: should the government really be targeting GDP maximisation? The US is known to have a very big GDP/capita, higher than those in european countries, even countries like germany. Yet in some european countries the people(middle class and lower class) live better lives than they do in the US.

Keep in mind the Kuznets curve below and keep in mind that income here is actually GDP/capita

Image
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:25 am

waauw wrote:Maybe the big question at hand should be: should the government really be targeting GDP maximisation? The US is known to have a very big GDP/capita, higher than those in european countries, even countries like germany. Yet in some european countries the people(middle class and lower class) live better lives than they do in the US.

Keep in mind the Kuznets curve below and keep in mind that income here is actually GDP/capita

Image


They shouldn't. Because GDP doesn't mean much. Since it looks good on paper and as rhetoric, then there's no surprise that it gets targeted often (e.g. public works programs, "creating jobs," etc.).
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:01 pm

waauw wrote:
Crazyirishman wrote:Does the definition change for college students? I know that when I work in the summer, I earn enough that I could survive. i.e. rent, car insurance, food for more than 6 months after I've worked for duration of the summer. But then, I pay tuition.... and bam! I'm poor again. Is that paycheck to paycheck?


I dunno, but I know that according to the current system people who have a job, no matter how low they get payed or how low their hours are, they get counted as being employed(though I'm not sure whether students count too).


It counts as unemployed. students, seniors, and people who have given up looking for work (still unemployed) are not counted as "unemployed".
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:02 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
waauw wrote:Maybe the big question at hand should be: should the government really be targeting GDP maximisation? The US is known to have a very big GDP/capita, higher than those in european countries, even countries like germany. Yet in some european countries the people(middle class and lower class) live better lives than they do in the US.

Keep in mind the Kuznets curve below and keep in mind that income here is actually GDP/capita

Image


They shouldn't. Because GDP doesn't mean much. Since it looks good on paper and as rhetoric, then there's no surprise that it gets targeted often (e.g. public works programs, "creating jobs," etc.).



Isn't America's military spending still counted as GDP "growth" and burger flippers counted as "manufacturing" jobs?

The numbers are so fudged and the formula's so abused, it's becoming ridiculous
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Timminz on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:09 pm

patrickaa317 wrote:With the exception ... government workers where they...have a larger budget and simply overpay a majority of the workforce in comparison to the private sector


Which governments and fields, specifically, are you talking about here? From my point of view (recent graduate of a professional services-type field) government jobs pay significantly less than private sector jobs. The only way governments can compete for new hires, is to aim lower.
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Re: 76% PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:21 pm

Timminz wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:With the exception ... government workers where they...have a larger budget and simply overpay a majority of the workforce in comparison to the private sector


Which governments and fields, specifically, are you talking about here? From my point of view (recent graduate of a professional services-type field) government jobs pay significantly less than private sector jobs. The only way governments can compete for new hires, is to aim lower.


There is a ton of evidence that, on average, gov't jobs pay much higher than private jobs. If you are talking about your country, perhaps that is the case, but certainly not in America.
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