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Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby mookiemcgee on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:10 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:That was exactly my initial point. If you are going to government-support psychiatrists, one might as well government-support exorcists.


DY- have you ever known someone who has suffered from mental illness? PTSD, for example, or depression, or schizophrenia?


I don't believe in mental illness. People don't have a mind that can become broken. They might have a brain that can become broken, but that isn't a mental thing, it's either a chemical or a physical thing.


Are you a scientologist?
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:16 pm

waauw wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:So how do you know that your mind exists? To rephrase the question - what is the part of you that is "you" and not just a physical reality?


The mind is a physical reality only, everything is physical. But that doesn't mean thoughts can't exist. A computer is physical as well, yet software programming exists.

I'm glad you wrote that. If the mind is a physical reality only and everything is physical then how do you determine that life has value? Physically a brain is the same as a collection of electrolytes in really viscous solution.

Since you can't ascribe value to life based on that physical reality, the truth comes that homicide and suicide don't matter.

The majority of space is doing quite fine without humans. Why should this patch of space called Earth have humans?
mookiemcgee wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:That was exactly my initial point. If you are going to government-support psychiatrists, one might as well government-support exorcists.


DY- have you ever known someone who has suffered from mental illness? PTSD, for example, or depression, or schizophrenia?


I don't believe in mental illness. People don't have a mind that can become broken. They might have a brain that can become broken, but that isn't a mental thing, it's either a chemical or a physical thing.


Are you a scientologist?

No, what gave you that idea?
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby mrswdk on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:36 pm

DY is right. Mental illness is just another word for someone who's given up trying.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby betiko on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:55 pm

mrswdk wrote:DY is right. Mental illness is just another word for someone who's given up trying.


Wrong
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:56 pm

patches70 wrote:
waauw wrote:
Let's not turn this about semantics. People can think, feel and be conscious of themselves.



I'm not sure you can say that as fact. Are you telepathic? You can only know if you can think, feel and be conscious. And you can't even really be sure of that either. Unless you can somehow pigback your consciousness upon someone else's and be an observer through their eyes, living inside their body and have complete access to their thoughts and internal processes, you can' know shit about anyone else. Not really.

You assume other's think like yourself, feel like yourself, are conscious like yourself, but you can't know.


No, you don't need to know any of those things. People act volitionally, that't the only thing you need to know. That they're not a random-floating bubble of goo. That's all a mind is -- a processing centre that makes non-random choices. It doesn't need to be a good mind, a sound mind, a brilliant mind, or a sane mind. If any of those things were mandatory parts of the definition, those extra adjectives would be redundant. If it makes non-random choices, it's a mind, regardless of how stupid those choices are.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:08 pm

So, if non-randomness is the main issue then we are stepping into surreal territory. Now this requires a definition of what random is. Many who claim that there is only physical reality do this with the underlying assumption that reality is non-random, although it may be at the quantum level, the world follows definite patterns. Gravity is a non-random factor, which is not a mind.

What's at stake is the definition of the word fate. Is fate opposed to chance or to will?
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby Thorthoth on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:13 pm

big[img]http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-we-are-rag-dolls-made-out-of-many-ages-and-skins-changelings-who-have-slept-in-wood-loren-eiseley-72-10-90.jpg[/bigimg]
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby Thorthoth on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:13 pm

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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:22 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:So, if non-randomness is the main issue then we are stepping into surreal territory. Now this requires a definition of what random is. Many who claim that there is only physical reality do this with the underlying assumption that reality is non-random, although it may be at the quantum level, the world follows definite patterns. Gravity is a non-random factor, which is not a mind.

What's at stake is the definition of the word fate. Is fate opposed to chance or to will?


That's philosophical sophistry, suitable for mental masturbation at the pub, of no real significance in the real world. It's great fun, but of zero importance.

Practical psychiatry is about real issues. Is the person happy, productive, and well integrated with the customs of his tribe? No? Then something is broken. Can we fix it? Maybe, maybe not. Certainly our ability to do so isn't perfect, but with research and effort it does improve over time.

A box jellyfish swims towards the sunlight, because that's where it's more likely to find nutrition than in the other direction. That's the workings of a primitive, rudimentary mind. There's no brain, just transmitters oozing out of an eye and a few things that may be the ancestors of nerves, but it helps the box jelly fulfill its destiny.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:28 pm

It's not sophistry at all. Things happen. There are three usual reasons ascribed to things happening. Fate, or a predetermined course of action; fortuna, or an nondetermined course of action; free will, a personally determined course of action. If all that exists is Fate or Fortune or some combination thereof, then nothing really matters and one can't ascribe value to anything. Therefore a person's happiness and tribe have no import whatsoever. Psychiatry and psychology aren't about real issues at all since psychology is the study of the soul. Both fields are founded on the existence of will yet they ignore the concept of will. They live in an actual schizophrenic field of study.

I would argue that it isn't improving over time through either of those fields but getting worse.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby mrswdk on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:35 pm

Thorthoth wrote:big[img]http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-we-are-rag-dolls-made-out-of-many-ages-and-skins-changelings-who-have-slept-in-wood-loren-eiseley-72-10-90.jpg[/bigimg]


Stupid ass.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby hotfire on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:15 pm

Philosophy makes me want to puke.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:16 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:It's not sophistry at all. Things happen. There are three usual reasons ascribed to things happening. Fate, or a predetermined course of action; fortuna, or an nondetermined course of action; free will, a personally determined course of action. If all that exists is Fate or Fortune or some combination thereof, then nothing really matters and one can't ascribe value to anything. Therefore a person's happiness and tribe have no import whatsoever. Psychiatry and psychology aren't about real issues at all since psychology is the study of the soul. Both fields are founded on the existence of will yet they ignore the concept of will. They live in an actual schizophrenic field of study.


It is sophistry. Pure pedantic nonsense of the worst kind. We cannot prove free will exists in any grand abstract fashion. All we know is that from a practical, empirical, point of view, organisms behave a certain way and make certain choices. All that matters is results. Whether the choices those choices are "free" or predestined in the philosophical sense is, as i said, mental masturbation suitable for the pub. It has no practical, empirically demonstrable consequences.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby mookiemcgee on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:19 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
mookiemcgee wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:That was exactly my initial point. If you are going to government-support psychiatrists, one might as well government-support exorcists.


DY- have you ever known someone who has suffered from mental illness? PTSD, for example, or depression, or schizophrenia?


I don't believe in mental illness. People don't have a mind that can become broken. They might have a brain that can become broken, but that isn't a mental thing, it's either a chemical or a physical thing.


Are you a scientologist?

No, what gave you that idea?


Just curious, not believing in Psychiatry is a core belief in that religion. Reading the rest of the thread though, you don't exactly overlap their belief system in other ways.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:46 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:It's not sophistry at all. Things happen. There are three usual reasons ascribed to things happening. Fate, or a predetermined course of action; fortuna, or an nondetermined course of action; free will, a personally determined course of action. If all that exists is Fate or Fortune or some combination thereof, then nothing really matters and one can't ascribe value to anything. Therefore a person's happiness and tribe have no import whatsoever. Psychiatry and psychology aren't about real issues at all since psychology is the study of the soul. Both fields are founded on the existence of will yet they ignore the concept of will. They live in an actual schizophrenic field of study.


It is sophistry. Pure pedantic nonsense of the worst kind. We cannot prove free will exists in any grand abstract fashion. All we know is that from a practical, empirical, point of view, organisms behave a certain way and make certain choices. All that matters is results. Whether the choices those choices are "free" or predestined in the philosophical sense is, as i said, mental masturbation suitable for the pub. It has no practical, empirically demonstrable consequences.


But you haven't answered why anyone should care about those choices.

Why does anything matter? Until you can ascribe value to something for a reason, or arbitrarily, you can't care about anything. My point is that a deterministic worldview only allows arbitrary valuations.

@hotfire: if you'd rather challenge my science you can
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby betiko on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:42 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:It's not sophistry at all. Things happen. There are three usual reasons ascribed to things happening. Fate, or a predetermined course of action; fortuna, or an nondetermined course of action; free will, a personally determined course of action. If all that exists is Fate or Fortune or some combination thereof, then nothing really matters and one can't ascribe value to anything. Therefore a person's happiness and tribe have no import whatsoever. Psychiatry and psychology aren't about real issues at all since psychology is the study of the soul. Both fields are founded on the existence of will yet they ignore the concept of will. They live in an actual schizophrenic field of study.


It is sophistry. Pure pedantic nonsense of the worst kind. We cannot prove free will exists in any grand abstract fashion. All we know is that from a practical, empirical, point of view, organisms behave a certain way and make certain choices. All that matters is results. Whether the choices those choices are "free" or predestined in the philosophical sense is, as i said, mental masturbation suitable for the pub. It has no practical, empirically demonstrable consequences.


But you haven't answered why anyone should care about those choices.

Why does anything matter? Until you can ascribe value to something for a reason, or arbitrarily, you can't care about anything. My point is that a deterministic worldview only allows arbitrary valuations.

@hotfire: if you'd rather challenge my science you can


Tl; dr
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby Thorthoth on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:22 pm

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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby betiko on Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:49 pm

Thorthoth wrote:Image


Tl; dr
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:08 pm

betiko wrote:
Thorthoth wrote:Image


Tl; dr


Tl; dr
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Postby 2dimes on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:37 pm

It is silly to say you know nothing. It is wise to admit what you know is very little And some of that is incorrect.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby waauw on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:57 am

Thortoth loves the edgy stuff.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby hotfire on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:58 am

Psychology is a soft science and although I do have a fair amount of knowledge about it I would not try to out science anyone in it.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby Thorthoth on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:31 pm

hotfire wrote:Psychology is a soft science and although I do have a fair amount of knowledge about it I would not try to out science anyone in it.

Set up for a psych-out.
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Re: Mass shooting, Texas, 26 dead

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:50 pm

hotfire wrote:Psychology is a soft science and although I do have a fair amount of knowledge about it I would not try to out science anyone in it.


Thank you, my point exactly.
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