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Greatest naval victories in history

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby ConfederateSS on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:42 pm

[quote="jusplay4fun"]CSS,

For someone with one or more degrees in History, you seemed fixated on the minutia of the subject rather than the sweep of the larger picture of its significant events and trends.

And there is your overuse of hyperbole, capital letters, and punctuation; overuse brings distraction and does not enhance proper emphasis nor clarification, IMO. Your grammar, spelling, and spacing needs improvement, too, while we are offering criticisms.

btw: Commodore Matthew Perry opened Japan, NOT China, as you wrote.

---I know about Com. Perry, but I was trying to type 4 things at once....I don't nit pick people like you...When you know what I was saying.......As for you 1st line..........That was my point.....you were the one who doesn't see that a small battle,leads to another......As the bigger picture unfolds.......TO THE END RESULT.....Not you, J4fun...I know you were just telling you case of the debate.....But I love messing with the grammer police, and know it alls...on the internet...Knowing if the did that to a person in real life,they would get a punch in the face, like Trump says,punch'em in the face... :D ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... :D .......If you notice I hardly every,degrade people, or swear......in my posts,but sometimes I am forced to defend myself...
-----Yes tzor, Cpt. Butler did smuggle.....But even though he knew the South Was losing...For Glory and Honor...he went to Gettysburg...to fight a losing battle anyway.......That is what Gone With the Wind is about...America's,yes America's last since of Honor ,as it was blown away,by the winds of The Civil War....Some say the Kennedy's were America's Camelot.....WHEN IT WAS IN FACT ---- THE GLORY of THE SOUTH...... :D :D :D ...EVER SINCE AMERICA HAS BEEN WITHOUT HONOR :( ....
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:40 pm

Your rebuttal and the rest of your posts prove how silly you are.

And, as one who claims to know history, you show ignoranance of that very subject.

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby mandalorian2298 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:18 am

There is actually one naval victory in world history that is objectively the greatest and I'm surprised that none of you mentioned it.

DATE: October 26th, 1597.

BATTLE: Battle of Myeongnyang

LOSER

Commander: Tōdō Takatora

Starting fleet: At least 133 warships and 200 support ships

Loses: 30 ships, about 50% of Japanese soldiers and officers

WINNER

Commander: Yi Sun-sin

Starting fleet: 13 warships (Joseon) and 32 scout ships (Hyeopseon)

Loses: 0 ships. That's why it's the greatest victory ever. This dude didn't just win against 10-1 odds, he made it a flawless victory.
In his war journal, Yi reported two men killed as well as 3 wounded on his flagship.

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:40 am

thanks for sharing, Mand. I did not know of this battle (of many, I will add).

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby mandalorian2298 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:19 am

jusplay4fun wrote:thanks for sharing, Mand. I did not know of this battle (of many, I will add).

JP4F


You're welcome. :) If you would like to learn more about Admiral Yi and the the kicking that he gave to the Japanese invaders, I recommend this youtube series (which is where I heard about it).
Mishuk gotal'u meshuroke, pako kyore.

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:01 am

I think that like many Westerners, I have a lack of knowledge of much of Asia and its history.

For example, until I got "into" Risk online, I had almost no knowledge of Sun-Tzu and the "Art of War."

Appalling, it seems now, in hindsight.

As far as watching, I find little spare time to watch much on "TV" (online, internet, on computer, whatever media). To be frank, CC, job, Church activities, and family take my time. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

I have not even caught up watching the current season of Vikings on HIstory. If you have not seen it, I suggest you check it out. Now that College Football is winding down, I may find a bit more free time.

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby mandalorian2298 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:29 am

jusplay4fun wrote:I think that like many Westerners, I have a lack of knowledge of much of Asia and its history.

For example, until I got "into" Risk online, I had almost no knowledge of Sun-Tzu and the "Art of War."

Appalling, it seems now, in hindsight.

As far as watching, I find little spare time to watch much on "TV" (online, internet, on computer, whatever media). To be frank, CC, job, Church activities, and family take my time. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

I have not even caught up watching the current season of Vikings on HIstory. If you have not seen it, I suggest you check it out. Now that College Football is winding down, I may find a bit more free time.

Mike JP4Fun


At least for the few weeks before we find out who is going to be playing Pats in Super Bowl LII. :mrgreen:
Mishuk gotal'u meshuroke, pako kyore.

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:04 pm

Six months after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States defeated Japan in one of the most decisive naval battles of World War II. Thanks in part to major advances in code breaking, the United States was able to preempt and counter Japan’s planned ambush of its few remaining aircraft carriers, inflicting permanent damage on the Japanese Navy. An important turning point in the Pacific campaign, the victory allowed the United States and its allies to move into an offensive position.

Analysts often point to Japanese aircraft losses at Midway as eliminating the power of the Imperial Navy’s air arm, but in fact about two-thirds of air crews survived. More devastating was the loss of trained mechanics and aircraft ground crews who went down with the ships. Some historians see Midway as the turning point in the Pacific theater of the war, after which Americans rode straight to Tokyo; others view it as a cusp in the war, after which initiative hung in the balance, to swing toward the Allies in the Guadalcanal campaign. Either way, Midway ranks as a truly decisive battle.

JOHN PRADOS

The Reader’s Companion to Military History. Edited by Robert Cowley and Geoffrey Parker. Copyright © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
http://www.history.com/topics/world-war ... -of-midway
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby ConfederateSS on Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:02 am

jusplay4fun wrote:Six months after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States defeated Japan in one of the most decisive naval battles of World War II. Thanks in part to major advances in code breaking, the United States was able to preempt and counter Japan’s planned ambush of its few remaining aircraft carriers, inflicting permanent damage on the Japanese Navy. An important turning point in the Pacific campaign, the victory allowed the United States and its allies to move into an offensive position.

Analysts often point to Japanese aircraft losses at Midway as eliminating the power of the Imperial Navy’s air arm, but in fact about two-thirds of air crews survived. More devastating was the loss of trained mechanics and aircraft ground crews who went down with the ships. Some historians see Midway as the turning point in the Pacific theater of the war, after which Americans rode straight to Tokyo; others view it as a cusp in the war, after which initiative hung in the balance, to swing toward the Allies in the Guadalcanal campaign. Either way, Midway ranks as a truly decisive battle.

JOHN PRADOS

The Reader’s Companion to Military History. Edited by Robert Cowley and Geoffrey Parker. Copyright © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
http://www.history.com/topics/world-war ... -of-midway

-------Actually aside from code breaking...When we tricked the Japanese,to thinking Midway(AF) water treatment was down...The Japanese would have to bring their own...They would send water treatment to (AF)....That is how we tricked them into a showdown at Midway... The Japanese commander froze...Just like at Pearl Harbor,and Later the battle of San Bernadino straits in the Philippines....At Pearl ,peeing in their pants because they missed the U.S.Carriers,they called off their last attack wave,which would of taken the U.S. months to recover from,...they would of destroyed the oil we used at the battle of Midway...At the battle of San Ber..straits...The U.S. main fleet chased the Japanese decoy north...The weak force of the U.S. that was left behind...Was on the verge of collapse...All the Japanese battleships had to do was finish them off....They chickened out, and turned around...Leaving a battered U.S. small fleet victorious...
------Now at Midway...Nagumo decided to switch his planes from bombs,which were on the planes for an attack on the island of Midway...When his scout planes learned of The U.S. Carriers...He chose to go with torpedoes ,a move that would take 45min to do...This allowed the U.S to launch their strike....When the U.S. planes smashed the Japanese 4 carriers, they did so by mostly bombs pounding the decks...Not torpedoes hitting the ships sides...SO NAGUMO HAD A THIRD CHOICE, ONE THAT DID NOT TAKE ANY TIME...LAUNCH HIS ATTACK WITH THE BOMBS AGAINST THE U.S.CARRIERS...bottom line he hesitated and lost...Like Japanese leaders would do time and time again and again...At all 3 battles the Japanese had a chance to go ALL IN...but played it safe and lost...


------Ironic that Kamikaze...a Divine Wind...Gave Japan to great naval victories against Kublai Khan...one in 1274 where a massive Typhoon,known as the BATTLE OF BUN'IE...When Japan was at the mercy of the Mongol forces...But saved by KAMIKAZE...Yet again in 1281 a much larger attack fleet was smashed at the hands of Mother Nature,God,Divine Wind....KAMIKAZE.......SO 900 SHIPS AND 40,000+ IN 1274 AND 4,400 SHIPS AND OVER 140,000 IN 1281 ,NAVIES OF THE MONGOLS WERE
DESTROYED.....TAKE THAT TRAFALGAR,SPANISH ARMADA...ONCE AGAIN...THE EAST IS OVER LOOKED...IN JAPAN'S CASE....A DIVINE WIND....KAMIKAZE... DID SAVE THEM FROM UTTER DESTRUCTION.....AS THEY HOPED......BY WAY OF THE ENOLA GAY/winds in the shape of a mushroom cloud...mercifully let Japan back out of WW2 and save face...
------Two other factors that led to the victory at Midway...The Japanese thought that THE USA was down to 2 Carriers,after the Lexington was sunk and The Yorktown was badly damaged at the battle of THE CORAL SEA,where we stopped Japan from threatening Australia....Well IN THE MOST GREATEST REPAIR JOB OF WORLD WAR 2...men worked round the clock and had THE YORKTOWN patched up in 24hrs...The Japanese didn't account for this...A 3rd US carrier...WAIT,Adm. Jack Fletcher had a 4th carrier......THE ISLAND OF MIDWAY ITSELF....The US was playing on an even field...During the battle of Midway...The Yorktown was so badly hit, the Japanese reported 1 US Carrier Sunk...But The US fire/repair crews were the best in the war at stopping oxygen etc..from spreading fires...They saved the Yorktown...The Japanese Hit and Sank The Yorktown Again...By this time Nagumo knew he was facing 3 actual carriers...He had lost 3 of his own in minutes...As he continued to fight on he now thought he had sunk 2 US carriers/sinking the Yorktown twice....He thought he was now 1-vs-1 with the Final American Carrier....As US planes pounded his final carrier...Vice Adm..Nagumo committed suicide,the Honorable thing to do...It was the plan of Island hopping that would bring down Japan...Not just the Battle of Midway itself...Japan wasn't facing the brunt of the Allies either...FOR THE ALLIES DECIDED TO CRUSH GERMANY and Italy(who later switched to the Allied side)...1st...before going all out against JAPAN...As for an all out Battle...That was fought between the Allied Naval forces and The Japanese Imperial Navy in the Philippines...Oct.1944...where then the Allies put the Japanese Navy out of action for good...But not The Imperial Army...YES MIDWAY WAS AN IMPORTANT STEPPING STONE,but in reality ,Japan as Germany...could never replace lost materials,like "THE SLEEPING GIANT...AMERICA"...Even Adm.Yamamoto would tell the Imperial Forces, "if we do not win in 18 months(1941)...We will lose do to lack of resources,in America there lies a rifle behind every blade of grass."... O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:19 am

CSS,

I agree on most of what you wrote, from what I know and recall.

Some of the specific facts you cite are new to me, but I do not claim to be an expert on that or any battle.

I did not mean to imply that the Battle of Midway was THE DECISIVE Battle in the Pacific in WWII. Rather, it was at least one of the major tipping points of the war. There are several other key Naval battles, as you said. I think there was one more soon after Midway that I read up on, but you did not spefically cite, but that fact is not that important to me at the moment.

And for the European Theater, there are at least two key land battles, in my mind: Stalingrad and I think it is El Alamein. We can argue the exact "tipping point" back and forth, but I will leave that discussion for another day and maybe another Forum Thread.

(The Battle of El Alamein, fought in the deserts of North Africa, is seen as one of the decisive victories ofWorld War Two. The Battle of El Alamein was primarily fought between two of the outstanding commanders of World War Two, Montgomery, who succeeded the dismissed Auchinleck, and Rommel.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/wo ... l-alamein/ )

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby ConfederateSS on Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:16 am

------The main battles of ww2 as most see it yes...
------I like to think...Germany attacking Russia without telling Japan played a huge deal...What if Japan attacked from Russia from the other side?
------Now,failing to knock Russia out as Germany hoped...They bailed Italy out in Africa...Rommel attack without orders...But when he pushed the British back into Egypt...The Germans who had hped to take the oil fields of cacus...Now wanted Rommel to push east...They would push south to meet up in a pincer movement....But Hitler became fix ated on taking Stalingrad,just because of the name :roll: ...Where he split his army in opperation BLUE...The bulk sent against Stalingrad...AGAIN HITLER MESSES UP....He chose to go after a name then the oil Germany and the Allies needed...Hey,look at that,just like today it all comes down to oil...
----Japan conquered 3 times the land that Germany did...
----After Roos..declared war on Japan,he didn't know how he was going to sell going to war in Europe...Lucky HITLER made it easy by declaring war on THE USA on Dec.8th....Another Hitler mistake....I mean really...For Germany and Japan to be very afraid of America's industrial power...They did all they could to get us into World War 2... :lol:
----When Germany decided to aid Italy in Greece before launching their attack on Russia...So instead of starting in early May...They started in late/mid June for opp. Barbarossa....When this cost them weeks....They might have taken Moscow before the roads turned to mud and the Russian winter set in...
----Even as it really happened...Gen. Manstien didn't want to wait to crush trapped Russians at Kiev...He wanted to go on to Moscow...Hitler refused until Kiev was cleaned up...What if Manstein did what Rommel did...ATTACKED on his own...Who knows?
--------I think the Balkan cam. that was forced upon Hitler to change his tactics...THE FACT THAT HITLER WOULD try war,before he had his wonder weapons...His attack on Russia ,Declaring war on the USA,and His not listening to his Generals played the most part in THE ALLIES WINNING...As for Japan,the only reason they tried to take what they did,outside of China...Was once again do to Hitler and Mussulini's vision of a German Empire and Italy restoring the ROMAN EMPIRE to the MED.sector...
-------THE MAIN FACT IS...Without America those 3 powers might have won WW2...YIKES... O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).... O:)
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby waauw on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:24 am

ConfederateSS wrote:------I like to think...Germany attacking Russia without telling Japan played a huge deal...What if Japan attacked from Russia from the other side?

The Russians refused the americans to use their lands to launch attacks on Japan. What do you think would've happened if Japan had pissed off the Siberian bear?
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:07 am

Based on limited reading, I would NOT call this a Naval victory. Apparently the Japanese did NOT deploy a significant number of ships to counter the Mongol fleet. The samari army repulsed the invading force in 1274 (on land) and then in 1281 Walls erected kept out invaders. In both cases a typhoon destroyed the Mongol ships and NOT Japanese Naval forces.

Thus I would say that these two "battles" do not meet a definition of a Naval Battle. They can be called Naval based invasions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze_(typhoon)

The kamikaze (Japanese: 神風) literally "divine wind" were two winds or storms that are said to have saved Japan from two Mongol fleets under Kublai Khan. These fleets attacked Japan in 1274 and again in 1281.

The latter fleet, composed of "more than four thousand ships bearing nearly 140,000 men"[1] is said to have been the largest attempted naval invasion in history whose scale was only recently eclipsed in modern times by the D-Day invasion of allied forces into Normandy in 1944.

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby aad0906 on Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:05 am

Four Day Sea Battle

https://youtu.be/5KHSLpHMlY4
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:12 am

I read about this; interesting.

Midway was also a four day battle:

JP

The Battle of Midway was a decisive naval battle in the Pacific Theater of World War II which occurred between 4 and 7 June 1942, only six months after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor and one month after the Battle of the Coral Sea.[6][7][8] The United States Navy under Admirals Chester Nimitz, Frank Jack Fletcher, and Raymond A. Spruance defeated an attacking fleet of the Imperial Japanese Navy under Admirals Isoroku Yamamoto, Chuichi Nagumo, and Nobutake Kondo near Midway Atoll, inflicting devastating damage on the Japanese fleet that proved irreparable. Military historian John Keegan called it "the most stunning and decisive blow in the history of naval warfare."[9]


aad0906 wrote:Four Day Sea Battle

https://youtu.be/5KHSLpHMlY4
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby ConfederateSS on Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:29 am

-----Any NAVAL LANDING is a naval battle...technically...As with the Persians...Mongols...Spanish...THE TURKS when like I said...700 Knights of St.John,plus a few 1,000 civilians held off 40,000 Turks from taking Malta...Your navy needs to secure the sea,supply troops...while being attacked by land,sea,air(depending time period),forces of the enemy...It is a little navalish battleish... O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:06 am

"technically" simply muddies the water and does not significantly advance the discussion. We are discussing the GREATEST, not the trivial and not minutia.

JP

ConfederateSS wrote:-----Any NAVAL LANDING is a naval battle...technically...As with the Persians...Mongols...Spanish...THE TURKS when like I said...700 Knights of St.John,plus a few 1,000 civilians held off 40,000 Turks from taking Malta...Your navy needs to secure the sea,supply troops...while being attacked by land,sea,air(depending time period),forces of the enemy...It is a little navalish battleish... O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby waauw on Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:42 am

Aftermath of a Welsh naval battle.

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:28 am

Aftermath of the Mexican naval battle at Tijuana.

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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:22 am

The preceding image is a clear and cogent example of fake burnie's caliber of nearly all his 3505 Posts here on CC.

If there was any doubt of where fake burnie's mind is and how it works, we now have a Classic example.

JP
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:31 am

jusplay4fun wrote:The preceding image is a clear and cogent example of fake burnie's caliber of nearly all his 3505 Posts here on CC.

If there was any doubt of where fake burnie's mind is and how it works, we now have a Classic example.

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Classic example of Justplaywithhimself being a total nerd.

Who would hang with this guy and have a beer in public with this poor excuse of a man?

I'm a bit upset that my gene pool was not the dominant gene in my illegitimate son's make up. His fukn mother's genes definitely are the reason my son is such a fukn pussy.
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:15 pm

Battle of Salamis, (480 BC), battle in the Greco-Persian Wars in which a Greek fleet defeated much larger Persian naval forces in the straits at Salamis, between the island of Salamis and the Athenian port-city of Piraeus. By 480 the Persian king Xerxes and his army had overrun much of Greece, and his navy of about 800 galleys bottled up the smaller Greek fleet of about 370 triremes in the Saronic Gulf. The Greek commander, Themistocles, then lured the Persian fleet into the narrow waters of the strait at Salamis, where the massed Persian ships had difficulty maneuvering. The Greek triremes then attacked furiously, ramming or sinking many Persian vessels and boarding others. The Greeks sank about 300 Persian vessels while losing only about 40 of their own. The rest of the Persian fleet was scattered, and as a result Xerxes had to postpone his planned land offensives for a year, a delay that gave the Greek city-states time to unite against him. The Battle of Salamis was the first great naval battle recorded in history.

JP
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby Bernie Sanders on Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:39 am

jusplay4fun wrote:Battle of Salamis, (480 BC), battle in the Greco-Persian Wars in which a Greek fleet defeated much larger Persian naval forces in the straits at Salamis, between the island of Salamis and the Athenian port-city of Piraeus. By 480 the Persian king Xerxes and his army had overrun much of Greece, and his navy of about 800 galleys bottled up the smaller Greek fleet of about 370 triremes in the Saronic Gulf. The Greek commander, Themistocles, then lured the Persian fleet into the narrow waters of the strait at Salamis, where the massed Persian ships had difficulty maneuvering. The Greek triremes then attacked furiously, ramming or sinking many Persian vessels and boarding others. The Greeks sank about 300 Persian vessels while losing only about 40 of their own. The rest of the Persian fleet was scattered, and as a result Xerxes had to postpone his planned land offensives for a year, a delay that gave the Greek city-states time to unite against him. The Battle of Salamis was the first great naval battle recorded in history.

JP


Do you always copy and paste to make it seem your educated?
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby riskllama on Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:22 am

*you're
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Re: Greatest naval victories in history

Postby jusplay4fun on Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:58 pm

Trafalgar:

#1 from History, #2 is Wikipedia; #3 is from BBC

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#1
In one of the most decisive naval battles in history, a British fleet under Admiral Lord Nelson defeats a combined French and Spanish fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar, fought off the coast of Spain.
At sea, Lord Nelson and the Royal Navy consistently thwarted Napoleon Bonaparte, who led France to preeminence on the European mainland. Nelson’s last and greatest victory against the French was the Battle of Trafalgar, which began after Nelson caught sight of a Franco-Spanish force of 33 ships. Preparing to engage the enemy force on October 21, Nelson divided his 27 ships into two divisions and signaled a famous message from the flagship Victory: “England expects that every man will do his duty.”

#2 is from Wikipedia;
The Battle of Trafalgar (21 October 1805) was a naval engagement fought by the British Royal Navy against the combined fleets of the French and Spanish Navies, during the War of the Third Coalition (August–December 1805) of the Napoleonic Wars (1796–1815).[3]
Twenty-seven British ships of the line led by Admiral Lord Nelson aboard HMS Victory defeated thirty-three French and Spanish ships of the line under the French Admiral Villeneuve in the Atlantic Ocean off the southwest coast of Spain, just west of Cape Trafalgar, near the town of Los Caños de Meca. The Franco-Spanish fleet lost twenty-two ships, without a single British vessel being lost. It was the most decisive naval battle of the war.
The British victory spectacularly confirmed the naval supremacy that Britain had established during the eighteenth century and was achieved in part through Nelson's departure from the prevailing naval tactical orthodoxy.[4] Conventional practice, at the time, was to engage an enemy fleet in a single line of battle parallel to the enemy, to facilitate signalling in battle and disengagement, and to maximise fields of fire and target areas. Nelson instead divided his smaller force into two columns directed perpendicularly against the enemy fleet, with decisive results.
During the battle, Nelson was shot by a French musketeer; he died shortly thereafter, becoming one of Britain's greatest war heroes. Villeneuve was captured along with his ship Bucentaure. Admiral Federico Gravina, the senior Spanish flag officer, escaped with the remnant of the fleet and succumbed months later to wounds sustained during the battle. Villeneuve attended Nelson's funeral while a captive on parole in Britain.

#3 is from BBC
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The Battle of Trafalgar was to witness both the defeat of Napoleon Bonaparte's plans to invade Britain, and the death of Admiral Lord Nelson. It was never going to be any ordinary battle, and quickly acquired a heightened, almost magical, reality.
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