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An interesting way of looking at religion

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An interesting way of looking at religion

Postby Vincent M on Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:58 pm

The Walrus and The Carpenter
Lewis Carroll
(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.

The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"

Image

The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead--
There were no birds to fly.

The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"

"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.

"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."

The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head--
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.

But four young Oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat--
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.

Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.

Image

The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.

"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."

"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?

Image

"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.

***********************************************************************************

From the movie DOGMA
Directed and Written by Kevin Smith

INT. AIRPORT - DAY
LOKI walks beside a NUN in a semi-busy terminal. They pass through the metal
detectors. The Nun carries a donation can.

LOKI
Leaving 'Alice in Wonderland' aside, look closely
at 'Through the Looking Glass' - particularly 'The
Walrus and the Carpenter' poem: what's the
metaphorical meaning?

NUN
I wasn't aware there was one.

LOKI
Oh, but there is - it colorfully details the sham
that is organized religion. The Walrus - with his
girth and good-nature - obviously refers to either
the Buddha, or - with his tusks - the lovable
Hindu elephant god, Lord Ganesha. This takes care
of the Eastern religions. The Carpenter is an
Obvious reference to Jesus Christ, who was
purportedly raised the son of a carpenter. He
represents the Western religions. And in the poem,
what do they do? They dupe all the oysters into
following them. Then, when the oysters collective
guard is down, the Walrus and the Carpenter shuck
and devour the helpless creatures, en masse. I
don't know what that says to you, but to me it
says that following faiths based on these
mythological figures insures the destruction of
one's inner-being.

BARTLEBY sits amongst a row of seats by one of the arrival gates. He eats
popcorn and stares at...
A steady stream of TRAVELERS, exiting the gate, meeting loved ones, family.

OC LOKI
Organized religion destroys who we are or who we
can be by inhibiting our actions and decisions out
of fear of an intangible parent-figure who shakes
a finger at us from thousands of years ago and
says "No, no!"

Bartleby smiles at the meet-and-greets, warmed. Loki saddles up beside him,
kneeling on one of the seats, facing the Nun.

LOKI
'Through the Looking Glass' - a children's tale?
I think not.

NUN
(really dazed)
I've... I've never really thought about it like
that...
(beat; shocked; off her cassock)
What have I been doing with my life...?

LOKI
Don't look back. Just get out there and taste
life.
(off donation can)
Leave this for the unenlightened. Poverty is for
the gullible - it's another way the church is
trying to control you. You take that money you've
been collecting for your parish reconstruction and
go get yourself a nice piece of ass. You deserve
it.

***********************************************************

Granted it is interesting concept
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Postby Iliad on Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:00 pm

Sure is interesting
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Postby chessplaya on Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:04 pm

vincent i hope we dont have to read all that
Veni...
Vidi...
Vici...
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Postby MeDeFe on Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:05 am

The poem's good enough, and I knew the movie already.
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Postby Vincent M on Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:45 am

Lewis Carroll was a badass 8)
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Postby Balsiefen on Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:51 am

Good movie but i hadn't actually seen the poem before
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:13 am

It is interesting that Lewis Carroll (an Anglican clergyman) would be arguing that organized religion would be a way to kill individuality and the spirit (I'm paraphrasing, I know). Especially when, in his own words, he was a proponent of religion in school, and was skeptical of purely secular education.

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/car ... s1.html#ed

The relevant info. is in the last paragraph. It appears he believed that secular education would lead to a selfishness that would lead to greater instances of social injustice. This seems like a strange stance for someone who wrote a poem with the meaning you suggest. Is it possible that the direcotor of Dogma looked at this work and saw what he wanted to see? A quick check into Carroll's background seems to suggest this. Sometimes a walrus is just a walrus.

I agree though Dogma was a good movie, and Carroll was a genius (esp. Jabberwocky).
Last edited by CrazyAnglican on Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Stopper on Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:01 am

CrazyAnglican wrote:Is it possible that the direcotor of Dogma looked at this work and saw what he wanted to see? A quick check into Carroll's background seems to suggest this. Sometimes a walrus is just a walrus.


I was a bit surprised to see the poem interpreted that way myself. Looking at Wikipedia, it seems that people have interpreted the poem in myriad different ways over the years, so I'm guessing it doesn't really have any deeper meaning. So, what we've learned from this is - don't ever try to learn anything from, well, films.

Incidentally, is Dogma really any good? Those lines of dialogue strike me as being, well, really naff. Reading them made me want to vomit.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:52 am

It's another movie that some would declaim for being irreverent, I guess. It has a lot of satirical humour and poses some thought provoking ideas. At least that was my impression of it. I only saw it once and that was several years back.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:34 pm

That is one stretched interpretation of a poem. Especially considering that the author was himself a Christian.
"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."
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Postby bedub1 on Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:46 pm

Dogma is a fantastic movie.
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