English Political Thread Not For The Dumb Americans

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Which ENGLISH Party Do You Support

Conservatives
4
14%
Liberal Democrats
6
21%
Labour
5
18%
BNP
3
11%
Green
5
18%
Other
5
18%
 
Total votes : 28

Postby TitusFinn on Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:27 am

When people hate America they are hating themselves. America is made up of every country in the world. There are plenty of Brits, Russians, Chinese, Africans, Middle Easterners, Koreans, Mexican, Scotsmen, Finlanders, Japanese, Phillipinos, etc.

America is a very young country and a huge experiment. It's all for one and one for all.
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Postby Machiavelli on Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:44 am

I think that many times when people say that they America, thier anger is directed more at the government than the people.


George Bush is a disgrace to America.
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Postby Stopper on Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:37 pm

Got to say, I don't think anyone in this thread has actually said they hated America, whether the government or the people.

Like I said earlier, I think this Ronnie fellow (who I find generally amusing) is just shit-stirring.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:06 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:No offense bushwhackers because I like you guys dont want you pissed but..

you guys are the all american team.. sort of like how america deadbeated WWII you guys dead beat games you are sucking in... Then come in and kick ass.





Now there's the patriotism I been looking for!



FDR was a great guy... how else did he get elected to 4 terms.. top 5 president hands down...
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Postby wcaclimbing on Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:30 pm

great post...



Utafar wrote:I have one thing to say to all the british on this site that think americans are dumb or just dislike us



(with the help of the french :wink: ) we kicked your asses along with the asses of your german mercenaries in the American revoulution.

and we saved your asses in world war 2 so don't go disrespecting americans in any way except sarcasticly.



and no nationality has the right to disrespect any other nationality on this site or any other
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Postby Stopper on Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:19 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:great post...



Utafar wrote:I have one thing to say to all the british on this site that think americans are dumb or just dislike us



(with the help of the french :wink: ) we kicked your asses along with the asses of your german mercenaries in the American revoulution.

and we saved your asses in world war 2 so don't go disrespecting americans in any way except sarcasticly.



and no nationality has the right to disrespect any other nationality on this site or any other


Just wondering - this kind of quote DOES get to some, but not all, British people, just as some, but not all, Americans LIKE saying it - but why are so many British & American people so obsessed about the Second World War, when we can't even win, or even properly choose, our current ones?
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Postby Ronnie_K on Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:44 pm

Blue On Blue


US troops get training to avoid friendly-fire attacks on British
By Laura Peek and Michael Evans, Defence Editor





AMERICAN soldiers in Iraq are being given “anti-fratricide” training to reduce the number of friendly fire attacks against British and other coalition troops, The Times has learnt.
Thirty-two “blue-on-blue” attacks on British and other coalition vehicles have been logged in the past twelve months in southern Iraq, Britain’s area of responsibility.



The training was revealed as Washington and Rome announced a joint inquiry into the killing last week of an Italian secret agent when US troops opened fire on the car in which he was accompanying a freed hostage to Baghdad airport.

The inquiry was announced by General George Casey, commander of multinational forces in Iraq, after Gianfranco Fini, the Italian Foreign Minister, had highlighted differences between the American and Italian versions of the incident.

Nicola Calipari, an experienced hostage negotiator, was killed as he protected Giuliana Sgrena, a journalist, who had been held for a month.

On the same day, a 30-year-old Bulgarian machinegunner was shot and killed in a second friendly fire incident, for which US forces were also blamed.

The vast majority of the 32 reported incidents involved American troops opening fire at night-time against suspected insurgents who turned out to be friendly forces, on or near the main route through southern Iraq used by US convoys.

Military officials in Basra, where the British-controlled Multinational Division (Southeast) is based, said that the “vehicle blue-on-blue incidents” in the period from February last year had resulted in ten minor injuries. “There have been no fatalities,” one said.

The officials declined to spell out the injuries received or whether they were all British soldiers, but they confirmed that most of the “firing nationalities” were American. A small number of incidents involved Romanian and Bulgarian troops opening fire.

US commanders were so worried that their men were shooting at the British because they failed to recognise the Union Jack or other distinguishing military markings that, in an unprecedented move, they asked the British Army to supply vehicles, men and flags to teach their soldiers what their allies looked like.

It is understood that the British supplied several “snatch” armoured Land Rovers, the most common vehicle used by British troops on patrol and senior non-commissioned officers, with Union Jacks, to instruct the Americans.

This was in addition to a detailed presentation already provided by the British for all incoming US troops, which outlines what a British soldier looks like, what type of vehicle he drives and what other coalition troops in southern Iraq drive around in.

When asked by The Times about the special anti-fratricide training, which was requested in January, a spokesman for US Army Forces Command at Fort McPherson in Atlanta, Georgia, said: “It is understandable we are doing this. We all want to reduce the number of friendly fire incidents. Checkpoints are very dangerous places. It has come into the headlines with the Italian and Bulgarian, but there are more incidents that do not get publicity and probably do not end so badly.”

British troops have been given warning against approaching American convoys because of the risk of being shot at. They are ordered to slow down to a snail’s pace as they pull alongside a convoy. They are told to display the Union Jack and shout that they are British. “The problem is that most of these incidents happen in the dark,” a military source said.

A British officer in Basra said: “The Americans can be pretty pumped-up. Sometimes they fire in broad daylight when we are travelling at two miles per hour, shouting that we are British out of the window and waving the Union Jack. If they shoot, our drill is to slam on the brakes and race in the opposite direction.”



U.S Troops Are Useless

Ronnie On Tour 22nd Cheshire Regiment





Rachel Squire (Dunfermline, West) (Lab): As the Member for Dunfermline, which is the Black Watch's largest recruitment area, I had hoped, as had many of its families, that it would not be committed to an even more dangerous aspect of its current operations, especially as our US allies, despite having 121,000 more in their armed forces than we do, seem incapable or unwilling to deal with the situation. What commitment can the Secretary of State give to assure us that all the vital support and equipment will be provided and that those soldiers will return to their homes for Christmas?


Mr. Hoon: I have set out the reason for this deployment. I am absolutely confident that the Black Watch and all those, including our US allies, who will work so hard to ensure that the deployment is able to take place will do so successfully and satisfactorily.

I am sorry that my hon. Friend expresses those views about the United States, which will be engaged in the deployment. I have explained to the House in some detail why this particular capability is necessary in order to allow wider operations against terrorists and kidnappers to take place.


Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): Is it not the case that the US forces place considerably greater reliance on the use of offensive air power against urban terrorist targets than we do, and that time and again, most regrettably, so-called precision US air strikes have resulted in significant Iraqi civilian casualties, including women and children? Assuming that that pattern continues, what assessment has the Secretary of State made of the risk that not only the Black Watch, but British forces generally, may, quite unjustifiably, be associated in the Iraqi public mind with having caused significant civilian casualties?


Mr. Hoon: I do not accept the logic of the right hon. Gentleman's argument, not least because the capability of modern precision-guided weapons is now such that they can be precisely targeted in a way that he does not give credit for. The question also concerns whether it is right to try to deal with terrorists. I assure him that Iraqi


21 Oct 2004 : Column 1042

public opinion wants the threats to security in Iraq and to the Iraqi people dealt with just as badly as the United States or the United Kingdom does. If he reflects on what he said, I am sure that he will realise that the sorts of terrorists operating in places such as Falluja are killing far more Iraqis than they are killing coalition forces. That is why the Interim Government are so determined to see them dealt with.


Mr. Eric Joyce (Falkirk, West) (Lab): In view of the tawdry and rather irresponsible comments to the effect that Black Watch families have not been properly briefed up to now, will the Secretary of State confirm that they have been properly briefed and that that will continue?


Mr. Hoon: The commanding officers have been at great pains to provide information to the families of those men currently deployed in Iraq. That is why I took such exception to the ignorant comments of the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames).



Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): Of course we must see the job through in Iraq, but is it not unfair to ask regiments such as the Black Watch, or my local regiment, the Cheshires, to serve with such bravery and distinction in Iraq, and then face them with abolition on their return?


Mr. Hoon: It is not a question of abolition; the hon. Gentleman knows full well that it is a reorganisation. We will have the opportunity to debate that in a few minutes, but there has been a long process of reorganising infantry battalions throughout the history of the British Army. He knows that full well, so why does he come to the House making such foolish assertions?


Mr. Robin Cook (Livingston) (Lab): In the light of my right hon. Friend's remarkable statement that only a third of US troops are combat-capable, would he agree with the US chiefs of staff when they warned Donald Rumsfeld that he was not sending enough US troops to Iraq in the first place? What assurances has he received from the US in return for this redeployment that, this time, it will listen to us as good and reliable allies when we advise it to minimise civilian casualties in Falluja, especially since, as a result of today's decision, we are much more likely to be held responsible for those casualties?


Mr. Hoon: My right hon. Friend and I worked closely together on Iraq and have discussed on many occasions the organisation of our armed forces. He knows full well that in any force there are front-line combat forces and support forces. That was my point, which is self-evident, as I am sure he would accept. Inevitably, a certain proportion of the US forces deployed in Iraq will be front-line combat forces, and a smaller proportion still will be armoured capable. That is why this particular deployment is necessary.



Hugh Robertson (Faversham and Mid-Kent) (Con): May I take the Secretary of State back to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne)? He will understand the importance of morale



21 Oct 2004 : Column 1043

to soldiers about to deploy on active service. Given that the Black Watch has already served with distinction during the war, and is now on a second and dangerous tour of duty, can he give it any reassurance whatever that its reward for that distinguished service will not be amalgamation or reorganisation?


Mr. Hoon: The hon. Gentleman, who generally speaks knowledgeably on these matters from his personal experience, knows full well the history of the British Army and of the need to reorganise to deal with modern reality. We will debate that issue in the debate that follows. Consistent with the recommendation of the Scottish colonels, for example, what we are looking to preserve is the identity of single battalion regiments within a larger amalgamated structure. That is something that has happened in the past and can happen in the future.


Ms Karen Buck (Regent's Park and Kensington, North) (Lab): I apologise for returning to a theme on which we have already touched, but in the past 24 hours I have received a great many messages from right across my constituency expressing concern about the proposed deployment. Apart from a theme of cynicism about timing—which I do not share, but which I believe must be understood and responded to—which runs through virtually all those messages, the single major theme is a concern about the impact on civilian casualties of an assault on Falluja. I ask my right hon. Friend to acknowledge the profound concern of my constituents about the impact on civilian casualties and the enhanced risk, as it is perceived, to British troops as a result of association with any excessive casualties.
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Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:01 pm

I think Ronny_K may be a terrorist. Lack or someone should see if his icp address is in Iraq someplace. 8)
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Postby Ronnie_K on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:08 pm

U.S WAR CRIMES


November 2004
A high-ranking Red Cross official estimated that "at least 800 civilians" were killed in the first 9 days of the November 2004 assault on Fallujah (Inter Press Service, 16 November 2004) - an operation originally codenamed "Thanksgiving massacre" (Telegraph, 24 December 2004).

Once again US forces committed major war crimes:

The city was placed 'under a strict night-time shoot-to-kill curfew' with 'anyone spotted in the soldiers' night vision sights…shot' (Times, 12 Nov 04)
Male refugees were prevented from leaving the combat zone (AP, 13 Nov 04)
US forces were filmed killing an unarmed, wounded Iraqi (Guardian, 16 Nov)
US warplanes dropped 3 bombs on the Central Health Centre clinic, killing 35 patients (including 5 children under the age of ten) and 24 medical staff (The Nation, 13 Dec 04)
Refugees from the city claimed that 'a large number of people, including children, were killed by American snipers' (Independent, 24 Nov 04).
US forces used phosphorus weapons 'that create a screen of fire that cannot be extinguished with water' (Washington Post, 10 Nov 04)
.
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Postby qeee1 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:21 pm

jay_a2j wrote:I think Ronny_K may be a terrorist. Lack or someone should see if his icp address is in Iraq someplace. 8)


Well that was constructive, I'd wager you didn't even read the whole post.
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Postby Ronnie_K on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:23 pm

'Friendly fire' hits Kurdish convoy


Massoud Barzani's brother was wounded in the attack
An American warplane has bombed a Kurdish convoy in northern Iraq which had been joined by members of US special forces, killing several people.
The BBC's world affairs editor John Simpson, who was travelling with the convoy, says he counted at least 10 bodies and several others were wounded.

It is the latest in a series of "friendly fire" incidents involving coalition forces during the Iraqi conflict.

Kurdish military commander Wajy Barzani, brother of the leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), was wounded in the attack.

The US military acknowledged that coalition aircraft were conducting close air support at the time of the incident, and said it was investigating the incident.

'Scene from hell'

The incident occurred about 30 miles (48km) south east of Mosul, as the convoy was heading towards the town of Diberjan, a town recently captured by the Kurdish forces from Iraqi soldiers.




More pictures from the scene

Mr Simpson said the convoy had joined up with another US special forces group of vehicles, and all parties had just got out of their vehicles, when a US special forces soldier called in an air strike after spotting an Iraqi tank in the distance.

Our correspondent, who suffered minor injuries in the attack, said a bomb was dropped from a US plane only 10 to 12 feet (about four metres) from where he was standing.

'FRIENDLY FIRE' INCIDENTS
6 April: US/Kurdish convoy attacked by US jet
3 April: US soldier killed by US ground forces
3 April: US ground forces attacked by US jet, 3 killed
28 March: UK vehicles attacked by US jet, 1 killed
23 March: UK jet shot down by US missile, 2 killed


He described a "scene from hell", with all the vehicles in the convoy on fire and bodies - American and Kurdish - lying around and others burning to death right in front of him.

Those who survived suffered only light shrapnel injuries and perforated eardrums.

But despite the efforts of US special forces' medics, Mr Simpson's translator died from injuries caused by a large piece of shrapnel which hit him in the lower legs.

Kurdish forces, backed by the US, are advancing south from their self-ruled enclave in northern Iraq on the cities of Mosul and Kirkuk, held by Saddam Hussein's forces
.
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Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:26 pm

qeee1 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:I think Ronny_K may be a terrorist. Lack or someone should see if his icp address is in Iraq someplace. 8)


Well that was constructive, I'd wager you didn't even read the whole post.




and miss my SS check when it arrives????



You need only read a few lines to see where he's going.


I mean COME ON! "23 March: UK jet shot down by US missile, 2 killed"


NOW WHY would we be shooting down jets???? Do the insurgents HAVE JETS????????????????????????
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Postby Ronnie_K on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:41 pm

Too Much Sucky Sucky

Not Good For G.I

You Swine



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Postby qeee1 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:48 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
qeee1 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:I think Ronny_K may be a terrorist. Lack or someone should see if his icp address is in Iraq someplace. 8)


Well that was constructive, I'd wager you didn't even read the whole post.




and miss my SS check when it arrives????



You need only read a few lines to see where he's going.


I mean COME ON! "23 March: UK jet shot down by US missile, 2 killed"


NOW WHY would we be shooting down jets???? Do the insurgents HAVE JETS????????????????????????


See now you could have said: "I only read one or two lines before disimissing it, when I see stuff like "23 March: UK jet shot down by US missile, 2 killed" I don't believe it because there is no conceivable way the US could accidentally shoot down a jet, even if in a reputable news source, which can be easily found be simply googling the quote, it says they do: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2921743.stm. As a result of this infallible principle, I have dismissed the message as a lie."

...that'd be far more constructive.

Heh, Ronnie is just trying to stir shit, but don't call him a terrorist, that's how wars start. j/k
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Postby Jolly Roger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:02 pm

jay_a2j wrote:I mean COME ON! "23 March: UK jet shot down by US missile, 2 killed"


NOW WHY would we be shooting down jets???? Do the insurgents HAVE JETS????????????????????????


Why indeed? the incident ronnie is referring to took place in 2003.

ok - you can stick your head back in the sand now
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Postby Ronnie_K on Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:14 pm

No I'm Not Shit Stirring

Im Posting The Truth

The U.S Army is Crap

ie: When your Ground Troops

In Fallujah Killed Civilians

Then Fucked Off

When People Started Shooting Back

And Left The British To Deal With The Backlash

I Forgot, U.S Troops Only Fire On Un Armed Civilians

Mainly Woman & Children

Stick to Air Strikes

And Leave the Real Fighting To The British

Are You Allowed To Eat Jelly Doughnuts Private Pyle




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Postby Jolly Roger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:14 pm

and isn't this supposed to be about english politics?
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Postby Ronnie_K on Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:15 pm

War Is Politics
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Postby Jolly Roger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:19 pm

fair enough - proceed
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Postby Ronnie_K on Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:29 pm

Troops' anger over US 'friendly fire'

By Patrick Barkham
On the RFA Argus in the Gulf


Three wounded UK soldiers have described how they survived an attack by a US A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles.
One of the survivors criticised the US pilot for showing "no regard for human life" and accused him of being "a cowboy" who had "gone out on a jolly".


The US A-10 aircraft circled and came around for a second attack
Another survivor said he stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the American pilot to try to halt his second attack.

The so-called friendly fire incident, 40 kilometres (24.8 miles) north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on RFA Argus, the UK forces' hospital ship in the Gulf.

Another soldier who had been in one of the two destroyed Scimitar light reconnaissance tanks, manned by the Household Cavalry, escaped without injury.

Nursing shrapnel wounds and burns, the three injured soldiers, Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, spoke of their bewilderment and anger.

They said the US pilot apparently failed to recognise that their tanks were a British make, with special coalition identification aids and even a large Union flag on another machine in the five-vehicle convoy.

Advanced technology

Lance Corporal Gerrard said: "All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They've said if you put this kit on you won't get shot.

"We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].

"You've got an A-10 with advanced technology and he can't use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It's ridiculous.

I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted 'reverse, reverse, reverse'

Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard
"Combat is what I've been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked.

"What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me."

The two Scimitars, followed by two armoured engineers' vehicles and another Scimitar light tank, set out on a "recce" of a road north west of Ad Dayr, north of Basra in southern Iraq, on Friday.

After coming under fire from Iraqi artillery, they were instructed to investigate a shanty town.

Troop leader Lieutenant MacEwen, 25, with special plastic bags now tied around his hands to treat his burns, described how the convoy tensed as villagers waving white flags approached from behind a large bank on the marshland by the Shatt al-Arab river.

"You could see the white flags above the bank but you didn't know whether they had any intention of surrendering or ambushing us," he said.

White light

Lance Corporal Gerrard said he suddenly heard the distinctive, relentless roar of an A-10's anti-tank gunfire.

"I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again," he said.




Widow's emotional tribute
"There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke.

"I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted 'reverse, reverse, reverse'.

"My gunner was screaming 'get out, get out'. How I got out of that hole I don't know. Then I saw the A-10 coming again and I just ran."

Lying on his hospital bed, he said the A-10 circled and made a return attack run.

"On the back of one of the engineers' vehicles there was a Union Jack," he said.

"For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don't know."

Tempting fate

The front two Scimitars, packed with hundreds of rounds of ammunition, grenades, rifle rounds and flammable diesel fuel tanks, exploded into flames.

One of the soldiers' colleagues, Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, did not escape the explosion.


The British Scimitars have distinctive markings
Lance Corporal Gerrard also criticised the pilot for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks.

"There was a boy of about 12-years-old. He was no more than 20 metres [65.6 ft] away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around.

"He [the pilot] had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy. He'd just gone out on a jolly."

He added: "I'm curious about what's going to happen to the pilot.

"He's killed one of my friends and he's killed him on the second run."

Trooper Finney, who was hit in the leg when the A-10 made its second attack, said all the British soldiers and their families joked about "friendly fire".

He said: "I got a letter off my dad the day before the attack and it said 'Be careful, come home soon and watch out for those damn Yanks'.

"Looks like he tempted fate a bit there."


This is pooled copy from Patrick Barkham of the Times on RFA Argus in the Gulf.
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Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:32 pm

Jolly Roger wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:I mean COME ON! "23 March: UK jet shot down by US missile, 2 killed"


NOW WHY would we be shooting down jets???? Do the insurgents HAVE JETS????????????????????????


Why indeed? the incident ronnie is referring to took place in 2003.

ok - you can stick your head back in the sand now



Well then its no longer news is it? And posting the year not just day would be helpful for those who have a family and such and can't spend all day "googling" reputable sorces. ....BBC is reputable? k...if you say so. :wink:
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Postby thegrimsleeper on Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:34 pm

A lot more reputable than Fox... :roll:
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Postby minihaymanz on Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:39 pm

well while were on friendly fire incidences

how about that time 4 canadians were killed by a heatseeking bomb launched by americans? not saying that it was on purpose, I guess they could have missed...with the laser guided systems, capable of hitting within 3 feet of the target, it MUST have been on accident.
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Postby jay_a2j on Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:44 pm

minihaymanz wrote:well while were on friendly fire incidences

how about that time 4 canadians were killed by a heatseeking bomb launched by americans? not saying that it was on purpose, I guess they could have missed...with the laser guided systems, capable of hitting within 3 feet of the target, it MUST have been on accident.




wow, now americans are killing its allies on purpose. TO SERVE WHAT PURPOSE MAY I ASK?


Accidents happen and anyone care to post the "friendly fire" of other nations? This is nothing more than a BASH AMERICA thread.
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Postby minihaymanz on Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:47 pm

well im just saying, most accurate bomb created...4 canadians, direct hit...kinda...well you know...

this isn't so much of a bash america thread as it is the lesser of two evils. would could be talking about...well yes it is a bash america thread.
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