Democratic primary debate.

[got tonkaed]

Have to say, think its a pretty strong argument.
Otherwise plant lovers would havea real case, as trees etc are clearly "biologically" alive.
It neatly simplifies the abortion debate too.

You have got to be kidding! I can't be involved with a debate with the irrational.

jay i think it might be helpful to try and look at the view like this.

What do you believe makes humans different (better) than other species?

In some senses i would guess youd argue something related to the soul, some concept that only is related to humans.

Essentially this argument is based in a notion that humans do have something specific to them and not to animals.

However instead of the some what metaphysical soul, its the process of being able to have wants and desires outside the instinctual, to have the ability to cognitize oneself into the future, to project empathy and other complex emotive charcteristics that only humans have.

If you argue that he is irrational for essential believing that the abortion debate is simplified because the fetus does not have those elements of humanity (a subjective thing) you are in essence aruging your only stance is irrational because you are arguing about a subjective charcteristic that is equally unable to be proven.

[suggs]

No wonder i failed my philosophy degree!
Strong stuff. Wish i'd said it!

[got tonkaed]

No wonder i failed my philosophy degree!
Strong stuff. Wish i'd said it!

yeah im pretty wicked awesome.

[suggs]

And now you're quoting Wittgenstein at me. Incredible

[luns101]

BTW luns...If the final choice was between Hillary and Ron Paul who would you vote for?

That's a hypothetical, Jay. I will not have to face that dilemma, thank God.

[unriggable]

BTW luns...If the final choice was between Hillary and Ron Paul who would you vote for?

That's a hypothetical, Jay. I will not have to face that dilemma, thank God.

How do you know?

[reverend_kyle]

Jay, are you saying having sex with a pregnant woman is bad?

No, I'm saying and I'll quote, "If a man strikes a pregnant woman and the child dies put him to death also" I think that's pretty cut and dry on how God feels about the issue.

No. Thats a pretty cut and dried expression of an individual human beings take on the issue, i.e whoever wrote that bit in the Bible. Thats like saying, "Look God exists, it says so in the Bible" or "West Ham are the best team in London-it says so in their Fanzine". A tad circular.

Plus didnt think God was really into killing, according to that bloke Moses...

Holy shit, he does make sense out of flame wars.

[spurgistan]

BTW luns...If the final choice was between Hillary and Ron Paul who would you vote for?

That's a hypothetical, Jay. I will not have to face that dilemma, thank God.

How do you know?

Because a Paul nomination by the Republican Party for president is hypothetical.

[jay_a2j]

BTW luns...If the final choice was between Hillary and Ron Paul who would you vote for?

That's a hypothetical, Jay. I will not have to face that dilemma, thank God.

How do you know?

Because a Paul nomination by the Republican Party for president is hypothetical.

Hillary is a hypothetical cause it hasn't happened yet!

[suggs]

Hope that Clinton wins. Hang on, I've already said that.
Still, republicans normally need things said to them at least twice before it sinks in, like:

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DOESN'T WORK
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DOESN'T WORK.

Shouting helps them too, i've found.
Go Hilary.

[luns101]

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DOESNT WORK
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DOESN'T WORK.

Sure it does. Every time you end the life of a murderer it stops them from murdering again.

[suggs]

You just better be damn sure it IS a murderer. They'd never get that wrong tho, would they?

It doesnt deter, was my point.

[luns101]

It doesnt deter, was my point.

That's why it's called capital punishment and not capital deterrence.

[Guiscard]

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DOESNT WORK
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DOESN'T WORK.

Sure it does. Every time you end the life of a murderer it stops them from murdering again.

So does every time you put them in prison for life, which is also proven to be a greater deterrent and allows the possibility of new evidence freeing an innocent man, rather than doing so posthumously.

Have you read The Innocent Man by John Grisham?

[luns101]

So does every time you put them in prison for life, which is also proven to be a greater deterrent and allows the possibility of new evidence freeing an innocent man, rather than doing so posthumously.

Have you read The Innocent Man by John Grisham?

Once again, the reason capital punishment works is because you're punishing the murderer. If there is some deterrent effect out of that good, but that should not be the reason for having capital punishment. It's not capital deterrence...it's capital punishment.

[suggs]

Is it good?
One of the purposes of punishment is normally assumed to be deterence.
Or you wouldnt mind people not being worried about consequences?

[luns101]

Is it good?
One of the purposes of punishment is normally assumed to be deterence.
Or you wouldnt mind people not being worried about consequences?

No, the reason for punishment is to punish the law-breaker. If there's a deterrent effect that takes place then fine...all the better. Punishment means punishment.

[Nobunaga]

... Executions should be televised.

...

[suggs]

Is it good?
One of the purposes of punishment is normally assumed to be deterence.
Or you wouldnt mind people not being worried about consequences?

No, the reason for punishment is to punish the law-breaker. If there's a deterrent effect that takes place then fine...all the better. Punishment means punishment.

You realise that that is not a "fact". Its ONE reason for punishment. But not everyone agrees with that. As so often, it comes down to normative choices.
Anyway, i just dont think capital punishment adds up. It doesnt deter, its too risky, it (probably) promtes violence and a loss of respect for life.
I suspect J. S. Mill had it right, when he voted against a capital punishment bill -words to the effect that he thought prison was a far more severe punishment than capital punishment.
If revenge/punshment is your desire, than locking up a murderer for, say fifty years would give him a lot more pain than a quick lethal injection.

So all ends up, capital punishment is just a sick joke.

[Nobunaga]

... The average cost to feed, clothe and house a prison inmate for one year is $31,363.

... Does that seem like a lot to anybody else?

...

[luns101]

You realise that that is not a "fact". Its ONE reason for punishment. But not everyone agrees with that. As so often, it comes down to normative choices.

No, the fact is that when you end the life of a murderer he no longer has the ability to murder anyone else ever again.

Anyway, i just dont think capital punishment adds up. It doesnt deter, its too risky, it (probably) promtes violence and a loss of respect for life.

Well, that's your opinion, but that doesn't make it any more factual. I'll say this again since you keep bringing up deterrence. It's called capital punishment for a reason - because it punishes the law-breaker. It's not called capital deterrence. You don't know whether capital punishment promotes violence or a loss of respect for life anymore than someone who would choose to argue from a deterrence standpoint. (I'm not arguing that it deters anyone by the way).

I suspect J. S. Mill had it right, when he voted against a capital punishment bill -words to the effect that he thought prison was a far more severe punishment than capital punishment.
If revenge/punshment is your desire, than locking up a murderer for, say fifty years would give him a lot more pain than a quick lethal injection.

Nope, this is one reason why I disagree with Bill O'Reilly on this issue. He wants to lock murderers up for life and work the crap out of them so that they would wish they were dead. (I think he said that he wants to take them to the Alaska Refuge and perform this forced-labor but it's been awhile since I've heard him talk about it). To me, that's revenge and not justice. Justice means you take the life of a murderer because they murdered someone else unjustly.

So all ends up, capital punishment is just a sick joke.

Well, that's your opinion. That doesn't make it a fact.

[OnlyAmbrose]

How I would love a Paul - Kucinich ticket...

[reverend_kyle]

How I would love a Paul - Kucinich ticket...

I pray you're kidding.

Least effective presidency ever.

[jay_a2j]

it (probably) promtes violence and a loss of respect for life.

Says the guy who defends abortion.

[got tonkaed]

it (probably) promtes violence and a loss of respect for life.

Says the guy who defends abortion.

if you wanna split hairs, you are talking about a distinction between something that no one can necessarily agree on is life yet....and the killing of something that is defintely alive, in the case of capital punishment.

And Luns, you become a murderer when you use capital punishment...it does after all kill people.