Bias in the Media, LOL

[thegreekdog]

Pray tell where the evidence of your founding fathers inserting religion into government is. This is news, because usually it is only possible to present evidence for them being against religion and government mixing.



And since it seems your reading skills will not get you placed in any top 10 lists.

Your founding fathers were first and foremost interested in their own interests.
Then in freedom and a better society for everyone (especially including themselves).
Then in a lot of other things like reading Plato and Aristotle, doing business, making money, learning new and exciting languages and being critical about religion. Very critical in fact, even for modern secular European standards.
Then in some more stuff.
Then in stuff like eating and getting up every morning.
Then in being religious.

Then possibly stuff like killing puppies and eating babies, but I rather doubt that to be honest, I'm only mentioning it to have a complete list.

Read the Constitution, the Declaration of Indepedence and any of Thomas Paine's writings. There are multiple references to God and/or the Creator. Perhaps you did not attend school? Perhaps you are so blinded by your hatred for things that you don't agree with that you cannot read? Or perhaps you are being sarcastic? I surely hope it's the latter.

Here's an example my friend: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

[Neoteny]

That part is just allegory. We atheists don't read that literally.

[Snorri1234]

Snorri, I'm not saying they were God-fearing Christians on a mission to bring Christianity to the United States.

Good, because that would be completely stupid.

I'm saying (1) there is little evidence that any of them were atheists,

There is plenty of evidence insofar as that they didn't pay much attention to religion themselves. They weren't atheists because they would be killed outright if they were. Ofcourse they weren't outright atheists, they would never have founded a nation if they did on account of them getting lynched.

and (2) they made many references to God in their writing. This latter factor is a positive indication that they were not, in fact, atheists.

Why? The fun thing about being an atheist is that you can parcipitate in any religious ceremony and talk about god all the time and how much you love him without a single problem. I know a lot of atheists actually do this to not upset their family (my family does at least). Their writings were not all very religious or in fact theistic in any way.

A number of things actually point towards some of them being very skeptic to the point of agnosticism.

For oVo to say they were atheists is downright wrong. And when MeDeFe doesn't actually say they were atheists, I don't think he's disagreeing with me. I think what he's trying to say is that the founders' respective beliefs in God was less important than their interest in freedom. I agree with that. But they weren't atheists.

If you rank "believing in god" less important than a whole bunch of shit, you're being very unchristian. At least, that's what every single christian tells me. (They all say "OMG MY BELIEFS IS TEH SINGLE MOST IMPORTANTS THING IN MY LIFE".)

When one's love for god is: "oh we should mention god here btw" you are in fact very much an atheist given the time in which they lived.


Still, you disagreed completely with MeDeFe on the founding fathers being supermen. That is, he says they weren't and you say they were.

[F1fth]

The f*ck does all this matter anyway, in the context of this thread or otherwise? Even if we knew what the founding fathers were (which we can't, conclusively, as you both must realize), what's either of your points?

I'm guessing it's pride, but correct me if I'm wrong. You both might as well be arguing the existence or non-existence of God, for all the progress you're going to make.

And MeDeFe, drop the demeaning bullshit. It's unbecoming. Greek, frustrated or not, you too.

[Neoteny]

Why even argue if you can't act like you're right?

[F1fth]

You can act like you're right. Just don't act like the other guy is an utter retard for not having the same ideas as you. I'm not saying anyone here was, but I could see where it was headed. It always starts with the petty little personal attacks.

Oh, and I also wanted the two to make their point as to how the beliefs of the founding fathers ties in with bias in the media.

[Snorri1234]

The f*ck does all this matter anyway, in the context of this thread or otherwise? Even if we knew what the founding fathers were (which we can't, conclusively, as you both must realize), what's either of your points?

My point has to do with me being awesome and lovely and fluffy and moist in every kind of way to be tremendously giddy about it.

[PLAYER57832]

Read the Constitution, the Declaration of Indepedence and any of Thomas Paine's writings. There are multiple references to God and/or the Creator. Perhaps you did not attend school? Perhaps you are so blinded by your hatred for things that you don't agree with that you cannot read? Or perhaps you are being sarcastic? I surely hope it's the latter.

Here's an example my friend: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

The founding father's religious faiths varied. But, remember, most people who came here really did NOT come here so we could all practice our religions, they came here so that they could practice their religions and then turn around an persecute everyone else.

[F1fth]

The f*ck does all this matter anyway, in the context of this thread or otherwise? Even if we knew what the founding fathers were (which we can't, conclusively, as you both must realize), what's either of your points?

My point has to do with me being awesome and lovely and fluffy and moist in every kind of way to be tremendously giddy about it.

And a fine point it is, sir!

[captain.crazy]

In any event, I have no problem with atheists. They are pretty brave if you really think about it - If the atheist is right, he dies and gets put into the ground (a scary thought indeed). If the atheist is wrong, he goes to Hell. It's a lose-lose situation.

This is a false dichotomy. Apart from the fact that we all die and get put in a hole in the ground (or whatever alternative is chosen for your corpse) regardless of faith, the declaration that the souls of all atheists will burn in hell seems to me to onl;y be espoused by holier-than-thou religious types. If you asked a Moslem what would happen to xians, most of them would burn in hell. The same goes the other way around. Those who preach that God is forgiving must concede that in this hypothetical scenario when I die and face God in heaven for not believing, for him to be forgiving and to condemn me to hell for being too ignorant to accept his existence are mutually exclusive.

I will happily accept the existence of a god who actually exists before me. I will not ask the forgiveness of a god that doesn't exist and whose followers try to care me with "ooh he's gonna get ya" and cast it simultaneously as a vindictive and forgiving figure.

Actually, what I have learned is that you have to accept Him, so that you can have a relationship with Him. when you pass, and try to get into heaven, he won't know you, thanks to your decision to deny him a relationship with you. Therefore, he will deny you the relationship with Him. This really boils down to your ego (Satan) being bigger than the small task of praying for Him to build a relationship with you. If you can do that, then you may not be cast away from God... because He really has no room for Ego in His neck of the woods.

[Neoteny]

My ego is almost as big as my cock.

[captain.crazy]

My ego is almost as big as my cock.

I'm quite sure it is.

[PLAYER57832]

Presumably, creationism can be supported by those who are not religious.

If you define Creationism as believing the Earth is made by God, then no. If you define Creationism as the young Earth theory and anti-evolution, then that idea was accepted by many for millenia, until it was PROVEN FALSE.

Additionally, people who are religious may not believe in creationism.

Most people who refuse the 6000-12000 age for earth and non-evolution are, in fact religious. It is primarily conservative Christians, mostly in the US, who have returned to that belief.

[PLAYER57832]

That part is just allegory. We atheists don't read that literally.

[thegreekdog]

I said the founding fathers were supermen? Seriously dude.

I don't take any of this stuff personally, and, for the most part, I don't think I've made any personal attacks on anyone. Most of you guys generally have good thoughts and many times I agree.

In any event, I try not to impose my religion on others. I don't think I've done that here. I'm simply arguing that the founding fathers were not atheists. That's all. That's the only point I have. I make no other points. I'm not trying to get everyone to believe in God. I'm not trying to get anyone to be a Catholic. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm simply putting forth the argument that there is a whole lot of evidence that the founding fathers were not atheists. That's all.

[PLAYER57832]

I said the founding fathers were supermen? Seriously dude.

I don't take any of this stuff personally, and, for the most part, I don't think I've made any personal attacks on anyone. Most of you guys generally have good thoughts and many times I agree.

In any event, I try not to impose my religion on others. I don't think I've done that here. I'm simply arguing that the founding fathers were not atheists. That's all. That's the only point I have. I make no other points. I'm not trying to get everyone to believe in God. I'm not trying to get anyone to be a Catholic. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm simply putting forth the argument that there is a whole lot of evidence that the founding fathers were not atheists. That's all.

Some of the founding fathers were deeply religious. Others were not. Thomas Jefferson is considered an agnostic. He actually wrote his own Bible. Were some atheists? I don't know of any conclusive proof, but at the time, it would have been hard to be in power if publically atheistic.

[captain.crazy]

I said the founding fathers were supermen? Seriously dude.

I don't take any of this stuff personally, and, for the most part, I don't think I've made any personal attacks on anyone. Most of you guys generally have good thoughts and many times I agree.

In any event, I try not to impose my religion on others. I don't think I've done that here. I'm simply arguing that the founding fathers were not atheists. That's all. That's the only point I have. I make no other points. I'm not trying to get everyone to believe in God. I'm not trying to get anyone to be a Catholic. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm simply putting forth the argument that there is a whole lot of evidence that the founding fathers were not atheists. That's all.

Some of the founding fathers were deeply religious. Others were not. Thomas Jefferson is considered an agnostic. He actually wrote his own Bible. Were some atheists? I don't know of any conclusive proof, but at the time, it would have been hard to be in power if publically atheistic.

I believe that Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian, to be frank.

[Neoteny]

Unitarian... way to be really vague...

[captain.crazy]

Unitarian... way to be really vague...

Wut?

[Neoteny]

I don't recognize Unitarianism as a religion. It's seems kinda redundant to me. That's kinda the idea behind monotheism, is it not?

[captain.crazy]

I don't recognize Unitarianism as a religion. It's seems kinda redundant to me. That's kinda the idea behind monotheism, is it not?

Sure... I wasn't sure if you had just never heard of it.

[MeDeFe]

I don't recognize Unitarianism as a religion. It's seems kinda redundant to me. That's kinda the idea behind monotheism, is it not?

Ah, the guys who worship the Global Standard Deity.



And btw, some amount of sarcasm is nothing unusual in my posts, greekdog.

[thegreekdog]

And btw, some amount of sarcasm is nothing unusual in my posts, greekdog.

Understood. It's hard to read sarcasm on a computer screen (at least for me).

[PLAYER57832]

I believe that Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian, to be frank.

He might have felt at home with Unitarianism, but he preceded it. Agnostic is probably the best lable. Also, he did create his own Bible.

[TheProwler]

And btw, some amount of sarcasm is nothing unusual in my posts, greekdog.

Understood. It's hard to read sarcasm on a computer screen (at least for me).

I have a solution.