Bias in the Media, LOL

[oVo]

OR . . . if you believe in a loving and forgiving GOD,
the athiest goes where all who "pass on" go.

[thegreekdog]

Unfortunately for the atheist, the God of Catholicism, while a forgiving God, is only forgiving if you ask for forgiveness.

[The1exile]

In any event, I have no problem with atheists. They are pretty brave if you really think about it - If the atheist is right, he dies and gets put into the ground (a scary thought indeed). If the atheist is wrong, he goes to Hell. It's a lose-lose situation.

This is a false dichotomy. Apart from the fact that we all die and get put in a hole in the ground (or whatever alternative is chosen for your corpse) regardless of faith, the declaration that the souls of all atheists will burn in hell seems to me to onl;y be espoused by holier-than-thou religious types. If you asked a Moslem what would happen to xians, most of them would burn in hell. The same goes the other way around. Those who preach that God is forgiving must concede that in this hypothetical scenario when I die and face God in heaven for not believing, for him to be forgiving and to condemn me to hell for being too ignorant to accept his existence are mutually exclusive.

I will happily accept the existence of a god who actually exists before me. I will not ask the forgiveness of a god that doesn't exist and whose followers try to care me with "ooh he's gonna get ya" and cast it simultaneously as a vindictive and forgiving figure.

[thegreekdog]

In any event, I have no problem with atheists. They are pretty brave if you really think about it - If the atheist is right, he dies and gets put into the ground (a scary thought indeed). If the atheist is wrong, he goes to Hell. It's a lose-lose situation.

This is a false dichotomy. Apart from the fact that we all die and get put in a hole in the ground (or whatever alternative is chosen for your corpse) regardless of faith, the declaration that the souls of all atheists will burn in hell seems to me to onl;y be espoused by holier-than-thou religious types. If you asked a Moslem what would happen to xians, most of them would burn in hell. The same goes the other way around. Those who preach that God is forgiving must concede that in this hypothetical scenario when I die and face God in heaven for not believing, for him to be forgiving and to condemn me to hell for being too ignorant to accept his existence are mutually exclusive.

I will happily accept the existence of a god who actually exists before me. I will not ask the forgiveness of a god that doesn't exist and whose followers try to care me with "ooh he's gonna get ya" and cast it simultaneously as a vindictive and forgiving figure.

Happily accepting the existence of a god you cannot see if the foundation of all religions - namely, faith. And I'm not one to say "Ooh he's gonna get ya," and I won't rip atheists. What you believe is your choice. I was simply pointing out, not in a sarcastic manner, that atheists should seem brave to someone who is religious. Unfortunately, many religious people do not practice what they preach - rather than turning the other cheek, many religious-types try to bully and coerce others to be religious. That's not something that Jesus taught... he never said, "Ooh, my dad is going to get you." Simply put, there is a dichotomy, but it is between the actions of man and the word of God. Man tends to belittle or war against those who don't believe; God wants us to forgive and accept them.

In any event, to get to your original point, I don't know what God will do or not do relative to an atheist. I don't know what God will or won't do to me. I have faith that if I live a good life, am kind to others, and ask forgiveness for my sins, God will accept me. I guess I'll see (or not see, as the case may be).

[MeDeFe]

I agree with some of your thoughts, but not others. The United States was surely not founded by atheists. We can just look to the founding documents and other writings, as well as my favorite quote by Benjamin Franklin ("Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy").

He also said that the English are great guzzlers of beer and that it's better to build lighthouses than churches, or something to that effect. Ben Franklin said a great deal of things, I should know, I've read his autobiography.


And @ both thegreekdog and especially captain.crazy, using terms like "god" or "created" does not make a person religous, it makes them someone who employs religious terminology to make a point.

[thegreekdog]

I agree with some of your thoughts, but not others. The United States was surely not founded by atheists. We can just look to the founding documents and other writings, as well as my favorite quote by Benjamin Franklin ("Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy").

He also said that the English are great guzzlers of beer and that it's better to build lighthouses than churches, or something to that effect. Ben Franklin said a great deal of things, I should know, I've read his autobiography.


And @ both thegreekdog and especially captain.crazy, using terms like "god" or "created" does not make a person religous, it makes them someone who employs religious terminology to make a point.

I'm unsure, but did I use the term "god" and "created" in reference to making a person religious? If I did, I did not mean to. Presumably, creationism can be supported by those who are not religious. Additionally, people who are religious may not believe in creationism.

That's not what I'm arguing in any event. I'm saying that (1) captain.crazy is illogical and (2) oVo is wrong regarding his assumptions on the founding fathers and the Constitution.

Finally, I've read the most recently published biography of Ben Franklin (but not his autobiography). I guess your point is that he said a lot of things? My point was that he, among others, were not necessarily atheists (I do not presume to know whether George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, John Adams, et. al. believed in God, Jesus, Allah, or the Buddha). I do know that their writings were peppered with references to God.

[MeDeFe]

I'm unsure, but did I use the term "god" and "created" in reference to making a person religious? If I did, I did not mean to. Presumably, creationism can be supported by those who are not religious. Additionally, people who are religious may not believe in creationism.

The blue makes sense, the red does not.

That's not what I'm arguing in any event. I'm saying that (1) captain.crazy is illogical and (2) oVo is wrong regarding his assumptions on the founding fathers and the Constitution.

Finally, I've read the most recently published biography of Ben Franklin (but not his autobiography). I guess your point is that he said a lot of things? My point was that he, among others, were not necessarily atheists (I do not presume to know whether George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, John Adams, et. al. believed in God, Jesus, Allah, or the Buddha). I do know that their writings were peppered with references to God.

Oh, your founding fathers were probably not outright atheists, or at least not all of them, but many of them were certainly sceptics (heard about the Jefferson bible? 46 pages after all miracles and inconsistencies were clipped out). Incidentally, in 1831 an episcopal minister complained that "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."


My point about Franklin is that he was a politician and opportunist, through and through, do not take anything from him at face value. The same likely goes for the rest of the bunch. "When in Rome, do as the Romans" and when in Religionland, do as the religious. If that includes using their terminology, which had been around for some 1500 years by then and quickly gaining secular meanings in addition to or even superseding the original ones or had become parts of figures of speech, so be it.
This does not make them bad persons, but I think it's a more accurate portrayal than one of them as wise, freedom-loving men with wholly good intentions gathering and declaring that one of the biggest (or even the biggest?) British colonies was independent, effective immediately.

[thegreekdog]

I'm unsure, but did I use the term "god" and "created" in reference to making a person religious? If I did, I did not mean to. Presumably, creationism can be supported by those who are not religious. Additionally, people who are religious may not believe in creationism.

The blue makes sense, the red does not.

That's not what I'm arguing in any event. I'm saying that (1) captain.crazy is illogical and (2) oVo is wrong regarding his assumptions on the founding fathers and the Constitution.

Finally, I've read the most recently published biography of Ben Franklin (but not his autobiography). I guess your point is that he said a lot of things? My point was that he, among others, were not necessarily atheists (I do not presume to know whether George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, John Adams, et. al. believed in God, Jesus, Allah, or the Buddha). I do know that their writings were peppered with references to God.

Oh, your founding fathers were probably not outright atheists, or at least not all of them, but many of them were certainly sceptics (heard about the Jefferson bible? 46 pages after all miracles and inconsistencies were clipped out). Incidentally, in 1831 an episcopal minister complained that "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."


My point about Franklin is that he was a politician and opportunist, through and through, do not take anything from him at face value. The same likely goes for the rest of the bunch. "When in Rome, do as the Romans" and when in Religionland, do as the religious. If that includes using their terminology, which had been around for some 1500 years by then and quickly gaining secular meanings in addition to or even superseding the original ones or had become parts of figures of speech, so be it.
This does not make them bad persons, but I think it's a more accurate portrayal than one of them as wise, freedom-loving men with wholly good intentions gathering and declaring that one of the biggest (or even the biggest?) British colonies was independent, effective immediately.

So, are you supporting oVo's determination that the "Founding Fathers" were atheists? Because that's really the issue I'm discussing. There is no empirical evidence that they were atheist. There is a whole lot of empirical evidence that they believed in God and that they inserted God into government. So, I was confused by oVo's assertion that they were atheist because there is a whole lot of evidence suggesting they were not. I don't disagree with anything else you're saying... they were certainly wise, freedom-loving men with wholly good intentions gathering and declaring that one of the biggest British colonies was independent... they just inserted a whole lot of references to God in those declarations; which leads me to believe they were not atheist.

[Snorri1234]

they were certainly wise, freedom-loving men with wholly good intentions gathering and declaring that one of the biggest British colonies was independent...

Either I misread MeDeFe or you are actually disagreeing with him.

[thegreekdog]

they were certainly wise, freedom-loving men with wholly good intentions gathering and declaring that one of the biggest British colonies was independent...

Either I misread MeDeFe or you are actually disagreeing with him.

I'm not sure if I'm disagreeing with him since he has not yet said that he believes the founders were atheist. If he think they were atheist, I disagree. If he thinks they were not atheist, then I agree.

[The1exile]

I'm not sure if I'm disagreeing with him since he has not yet said that he believes the founders were atheist. If he think they were atheist, I disagree. If he thinks they were not atheist, then I agree.

Dude, read the thread. You even quoted and replied to the post where he said what his stance was on the issue.

Oh, your founding fathers were probably not outright atheists, or at least not all of them, but many of them were certainly sceptics (heard about the Jefferson bible? 46 pages after all miracles and inconsistencies were clipped out). Incidentally, in 1831 an episcopal minister complained that "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

[thegreekdog]

I'm not sure if I'm disagreeing with him since he has not yet said that he believes the founders were atheist. If he think they were atheist, I disagree. If he thinks they were not atheist, then I agree.

Dude, read the thread. You even quoted and replied to the post where he said what his stance was on the issue.

Oh, your founding fathers were probably not outright atheists, or at least not all of them, but many of them were certainly sceptics (heard about the Jefferson bible? 46 pages after all miracles and inconsistencies were clipped out). Incidentally, in 1831 an episcopal minister complained that "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

Can you find for me where he said they were atheists? All I read is that they were skeptics because of Jefferon's bibles. I also read that "your founding fathers were probably not outright atheists."

To continue to belabor my point, the founders, who may have been skeptics, I don't know, made many references to God and Judeo-Christian law in the various documents they produced.

In conclusion, "Dude, read the thread."

[Snorri1234]

I'm not sure if I'm disagreeing with him since he has not yet said that he believes the founders were atheist. If he think they were atheist, I disagree. If he thinks they were not atheist, then I agree.

Dude, read the thread. You even quoted and replied to the post where he said what his stance was on the issue.

Oh, your founding fathers were probably not outright atheists, or at least not all of them, but many of them were certainly sceptics (heard about the Jefferson bible? 46 pages after all miracles and inconsistencies were clipped out). Incidentally, in 1831 an episcopal minister complained that "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

Can you find for me where he said they were atheists? All I read is that they were skeptics because of Jefferon's bibles. I also read that "your founding fathers were probably not outright atheists."

To continue to belabor my point, the founders, who may have been skeptics, I don't know, made many references to God and Judeo-Christian law in the various documents they produced.

In conclusion, "Dude, read the thread."

My point about Franklin is that he was a politician and opportunist, through and through, do not take anything from him at face value. The same likely goes for the rest of the bunch. "When in Rome, do as the Romans" and when in Religionland, do as the religious. If that includes using their terminology, which had been around for some 1500 years by then and quickly gaining secular meanings in addition to or even superseding the original ones or had become parts of figures of speech, so be it.

They were not outright atheists because being an outright atheist at that time would basically get you killed.

Anyway, what I was actually referring to was this:

This does not make them bad persons, but I think it's a more accurate portrayal than one of them as wise, freedom-loving men with wholly good intentions gathering and declaring that one of the biggest (or even the biggest?) British colonies was independent, effective immediately.

a more accurate portrayal than one of them

than

[thegreekdog]

Frustration building...

Snorri, I'm not saying they were God-fearing Christians on a mission to bring Christianity to the United States. I'm saying (1) there is little evidence that any of them were atheists, and (2) they made many references to God in their writing. This latter factor is a positive indication that they were not, in fact, atheists. For oVo to say they were atheists is downright wrong. And when MeDeFe doesn't actually say they were atheists, I don't think he's disagreeing with me. I think what he's trying to say is that the founders' respective beliefs in God was less important than their interest in freedom. I agree with that. But they weren't atheists.

I'm a rational guy who believes in logic and evidence (except when worshipping God in my own way, which I'm not going to force on anyone else). I'm not trying to impsoe my religion on others. I would venture to say that Jefferson, Franklin, et. al. would hate my religion (because, well, Catholics in the US were Irish... and Irish were scum). In any event, my motives in this thread are purely educational and for debate purposes only. I'm not saying I'm right about God. I am saying that I'm right about the founders. Because I am.

[MeDeFe]

Pray tell where the evidence of your founding fathers inserting religion into government is. This is news, because usually it is only possible to present evidence for them being against religion and government mixing.



And since it seems your reading skills will not get you placed in any top 10 lists.

Your founding fathers were first and foremost interested in their own interests.
Then in freedom and a better society for everyone (especially including themselves).
Then in a lot of other things like reading Plato and Aristotle, doing business, making money, learning new and exciting languages and being critical about religion. Very critical in fact, even for modern secular European standards.
Then in some more stuff.
Then in stuff like eating and getting up every morning.
Then in being religious.

Then possibly stuff like killing puppies and eating babies, but I rather doubt that to be honest, I'm only mentioning it to have a complete list.