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Postby heavycola on Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:51 pm

This is a good thread.

My 2c: I think we would all agree that killing a newborn baby is bad. I also think most non-catholics (and sane catholics, in fact) would agree that contraception is OK. SO all we have left is a sliding scale from shag to birth with everyone dotted along it and arguing for their position along that scale. There is a lot of hysterical diction - Jay continually labelling a pinhead-sized blob of cells a 'child', for example - but reproduction is SO hardwired into us, just next to the bit of the brain that keeps us breathing, that this issue is one of the most emotive and fundamental. However hard it is, we just have to act according to our own moral imperatives here and respect others' opinions.

WHich is why I just WISH the christians would stay out of it. Someone with a different opinion is OK, but bible-bashers thundering on about sin and god's plan are just offensive to people with more enlightened, evolved, sensible beliefs that don't include violent, petulant creators with obvious and acute bipolar disorder. Either form an opinion based in the real world, or else please take your book and the mumbo-jumbo contained therein and talk about it among yourselves, because I for one am mightily fed up with every thread on this page being seemingly unable to reach page 2 without some inane jesusfreak comment appearing that forces me to consider chewing off my own tongue.

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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:48 pm

cowshrptrn wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
cowshrptrn wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:As for unwed people. Yes, sex outside of marriage is sin. Abortion is also sin. So, at least with birth control you eliminate one of the two sins. (this of course, is assuming that the "they're gonna do it anyways" agrument is true)


In closeing, Gods plan is: wait until you are married to have sex.


IN closing, the church is going against one of our most arcane instinct that has been rooted into our subconscious through millions of yeras of evolution because they feel that its "immoral" and give no backing as to why it is except for the fact that they say so.


Funny, because i didn't know it is the most arcane instinct of a mother to kill her own offspring.


It IS, however, a mother's instict to do what is best for her offspring, and if she isn't in a position to raise a child at the time she was pregnant, then she has every right to wait and rasie a child when she is ready to do it.

Having the child at an innopportune time could prevent the mother from doing things like succeeding in college and getting a potentially better job. This would ruin the life of the child she was intending to have.

If we're arguing about "potential lives" here, i much rather think it better to postpone one life, so that the one it "died" for could have a much better life.


I'm sorry, but killing is never in someone's best interests. If we're about to send someone to prison for life, do we say, "well they're not going to enjoy them, let's just kill them now!" Nope. We stick 'em in jail and let them waste their lives there.

Furthermore, I would argue that abortion is never for the sake of the child. I'd rather be alive and in foster care than not alive at all. Maybe I'm alone in that sentiment, but I highly doubt it.

If you are trying to argue that abortion is part of "a mother's instinct", then I'm seriously doubting how seriously you're taking this issue.
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Postby cowshrptrn on Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:58 pm

abortion is a route that a mother can take, and its not killing a baby if its not a baby yet. Its a very difficult choice for a mother to have an abortion, especially will all these people telling her that she has a life growing inside of her, and tainting her decision to do what's right.

Abortion isnt' for the sake of the embryo being aborted, its for the sake of the planned child who will live a better life.

The basic logic of that sentence boils down to: The first baby must struggle, and casue the second one to struggle as well, or not even be born instead of having the first baby not be born, and have the second one live better.

Both scenarios end in one baby not being born, but in your scenario the one who lives sturrgles, as opposed to having the one who lives live comfortably.
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Postby subdork on Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:01 pm

Backglass wrote:
subdork wrote:OK, so an instinct that drives a man (or a woman, ok?) to rape would not be bad?


I do not believe that rape is instinctual.


There actually a lot of debate about that. Basically 3 camps:
1) Evolutionary - which believes rape is an instinct. In a nutshell if one is unable to have sex through conventional means (by displaying dominance, killing a deer, etc.), then a male (yes, the literature typically deals with males only) will fulfill his biological imperative by any means necessary.

2) Social Learning - a man learns to rape by being exposed to violence against women, pornography, pressure from peers, and the like.

3) Feminist - Rape is an instinct, but not an instinct to procreate. Rape is an instinct to suppress and belittle women so that men may maintain their place on the top of the hierarchy. This is similar to Marxist theories, which postulate that power and dominance are the main motivation of humans, and they typically achieve it by defining groups that will enable them to dominate the weaker or smaller groups.


Backglass wrote:
subdork wrote:Oh wait the instinct to have sex isn't bad, just the end result sometimes.


That is like saying the instinct to breathe isnt bad, but the end result sometimes is...especially when under water. :P


It's more like saying that the instinct to eat is not bad, but overeating is. And yes, there are times when one has to suppress an instinct because it is bad. Pleasureable acts can have negative consequences, be it sex with a stranger or another slice of cheesecake or a line of cocaine. There are negative consequences. In my opinion the cheapening of sex is a bad thing. It's not wrong. You're not hurting anybody else, but it is bad.

Backglass wrote:
subdork wrote:Now remember where this tangent of the conversation is coming from: Basically "How could having sex be bad since it is indeed an instinct." I gave an example where the instinct to have sex would indeed lead to bad acts if it were not suppressed. Most people will agree that you should not rape. So giving in to the instinct to have sex can be bad, wrong even.


I do not believe that sex is bad. Although Rape does by definition include penetration, is not a sexual act but an attack. Just as a beating with a baseball bat is not a deep tissue massage, even though it might loosen you up a bit. ;)


I don't believe that sex is bad, but I do believe that promiscuity and sex before marriage or without love is (again, note: not wrong, just a negative). I don't care if you think rape is not a sexual act. It remains that it is caused by the natural desire to procreate. Note, it is not caused by a reasoned desire to procreate.
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Postby cowshrptrn on Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:07 pm

Wow, the whoel sex is an instict seems to be taken out of the context it was propsed for.

Its meant to shut up people who coutner with an argument along the lines of "that slut should have kept her legs closed"

Its a VERY strong evolutionary drive, as strong as self preservation. If you get into a fight i an act of self defense, but continue to pummel the guy after he's no longer a threat until he dies you killed him, but its justifiable since you have hormones coursing through your body that are telling you to neutralise the threat, same thing with sex. You have hormones coursing through you that the other person has as well. Its very hard to control, and accidents happen and you dont' always have control over it.

The only way to have control over it would be to ban romance, and force everyone to wear modest clothing, which i don't tinhk ANYONE would want
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Postby Backglass on Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:57 pm

subdork wrote:There actually a lot of debate about that. Basically 3 camps:
1) Evolutionary
2) Social Learning
3) Feminist


4) Backglass - Just as serial killers are born with a screw loose upstairs, I believe that rapists are as well. I do not believe that pornography teaches men to rape. Every man here has seen his share of Playboy & Penthouse, yet we are not rapists.

subdork wrote: I don't care if you think rape is not a sexual act.


And I dont care that you think pre-marital sex is bad. I see nothing wrong with it and practiced it with great enthusiams before marriage...as do most normal young people.

subdork wrote:It remains that it is caused by the natural desire to procreate.
It remains your opinion, that is all. If rapists were just following the natural desire to procreate, why do so many rapists target elderly women who can no longer bear children? Because, they arent driven by a twisted desire to procreate any more than a mother that beats her children bloody is driven by a twisted desire to see them go to college. It is an act of dominating violence designed to control and punish women who do not obey their rules of behaviour. The rapist gains a short feeling of being in control of his otherwise out of control life.

A rapist wants:
  • A desire for power and control over a non-consenting victim
  • The acting out of hostility, aggression, and anger
  • A sense of dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another.

This is why rape is primarily a violent, hostile act carried out by sexual means, not a sexual act that becomes violent. Although different patterns of sexual assault are obvious they are all similar in that the motivation for each is power, not procreation.
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Postby vtmarik on Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:24 am

Backglass wrote:
subdork wrote:There actually a lot of debate about that. Basically 3 camps:
1) Evolutionary
2) Social Learning
3) Feminist


4) Backglass - Just as serial killers are born with a screw loose upstairs, I believe that rapists are as well. I do not believe that pornography teaches men to rape. Every man here has seen his share of Playboy & Penthouse, yet we are not rapists.

subdork wrote: I don't care if you think rape is not a sexual act.


And I dont care that you think pre-marital sex is bad. I see nothing wrong with it and practiced it with great enthusiams before marriage...as do most normal young people.

subdork wrote:It remains that it is caused by the natural desire to procreate.
It remains your opinion, that is all. If rapists were just following the natural desire to procreate, why do so many rapists target elderly women who can no longer bear children? Because, they arent driven by a twisted desire to procreate any more than a mother that beats her children bloody is driven by a twisted desire to see them go to college. It is an act of dominating violence designed to control and punish women who do not obey their rules of behaviour. The rapist gains a short feeling of being in control of his otherwise out of control life.

A rapist wants:
  • A desire for power and control over a non-consenting victim
  • The acting out of hostility, aggression, and anger
  • A sense of dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another.
This is why rape is primarily a violent, hostile act carried out by sexual means, not a sexual act that becomes violent. Although different patterns of sexual assault are obvious they are all similar in that the motivation for each is power, not procreation.


Anyone who has ever watched one episode of Law and Order: SVU has heard this. Well said Backglass.
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Postby subdork on Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:26 am

Backglass wrote:4) Backglass - Just as serial killers are born with a screw loose upstairs, I believe that rapists are as well. I do not believe that pornography teaches men to rape. Every man here has seen his share of Playboy & Penthouse, yet we are not rapists.


"yet we are not all rapists" I for one don't believe pornography causes rape. But your logic is horrible. Many people will smoke in their lives, and not all of them (in fact most of them) will not die of lung cancer. Does that mean that smoking does not cause lung cancer?

But, yes, why listen to psychologists and experts... it's a screw loose.
200,000 people every year have a screw loose in their head. Even taking into account that rapists sometimes commit the crime more than once, and assuming that all rapists would be between the ages of 20 and 60, that's still 2% of the population. Not particularly comparable to serial killers.

Here's a scarier statistic:
A survey on date rape showed that 60% of Canadian college-aged males indicated that they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they would not get caught. (Helen Lenskyj, "An Analysis of Violence Against Women: A Manual for Educators and Administrators," Toronto: Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, 1992)




Backglass wrote:And I dont care that you think pre-marital sex is bad. I see nothing wrong with it and practiced it with great enthusiams before marriage...as do most normal young people.


And that's fine by me.



Backglass wrote:
subdork wrote:It remains that it is caused by the natural desire to procreate.
It remains your opinion, that is all. If rapists were just following the natural desire to procreate, why do so many rapists target elderly women who can no longer bear children? Because, they arent driven by a twisted desire to procreate any more than a mother that beats her children bloody is driven by a twisted desire to see them go to college. It is an act of dominating violence designed to control and punish women who do not obey their rules of behaviour. The rapist gains a short feeling of being in control of his otherwise out of control life.


Actually, you are basically repeating the feminist theory. Of course the feminist theory goes a little bit further to say that rape is a tool used by the patriarchy to keep men in control.

80% of all rape victims are under the age of 30 (http://www.rainn.org), so, while I'm not exactly sure how many 80yr olds are being raped, I'm pretty sure it is a very small percentage, and I think that's no coincidence. And could it be possible that some rapes are motivated by a desire for power, while others are motivated by a desire for physical pleasure? Or can there be only one cause for any effect?

Backglass wrote:A rapist wants:
  • A desire for power and control over a non-consenting victim
  • The acting out of hostility, aggression, and anger
  • A sense of dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another.
This is why rape is primarily a violent, hostile act carried out by sexual means, not a sexual act that becomes violent. Although different patterns of sexual assault are obvious they are all similar in that the motivation for each is power, not procreation.


I would say the most common motivation for rape is lust. Usually anger, dehumanizing the victim, and a sense of being "owed" something are used as rationalizations to keep one from feeling guilt.


More than 80% of rapes that occur on university and college campuses are committed by someone the victim knows, and 50% occur on dates. (University of Alberta - 'Sexual Assault and the Law in Canada' )


I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that when a girl is raped while on a date, the attacker would have happily had consensual sex, and probably tried to convince the girl before resorting to raping her.

Why do humans lust? We've developed lust because it makes us more likely to procreate.

Early humans had no idea that having sex would lead to children. They simply had the urge to have sex. This is the way that instincts work. Your "instinct for procreation" (as well as any animal's instinct) is not a rational thought (like, "ooh ooh, I wanna make babies"). Instincts are played out below the level of reason. That's what makes them instincts.

You can have a desire to have children. And this desire is innate but it rises above the level of instinct.

Main Entry: in·stinct
Pronunciation: 'in-"sti[ng](k)t
Function: noun
1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
2 : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level



Anyway, what was the point again? I believe it was that I said that not all actions that result from an instinct are good. (You had stated that premarital sex couldn't be bad since it is instinctual) Are you willing to concede that point yet? I could also expand on my over-eating example.
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Postby subdork on Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:26 am

See also Todd Kendall's (Clemson University) research on the (negative) correlation between the availability of pornography and the instances of rape:
http://www.law.stanford.edu/display/ima ... 0paper.pdf

I think it is perhaps a little more convincing than a feminist theory or a TV show

I will give a few excerpts as it is a long paper with some technical mathematical jargon in it.

...A very controversial element of rhetoric and academic research on rape concerns the question of whether rape is driven by sexual desire or not. Sociological and feminist scholarship over the last 25 years has typically treated rape as a crime of violence or 'power', not lust. Under this theory therefore, consensual and masturbatory sex are not a substitute for rape. However, this view has been criticized by other scholars on empirical grounds (Ellis and Beattie, 1983), and through the arguments of evolutionary biology (Thornhill and Palmer, 2000). The findings of this paper are consistent with the possibility that at least some part of the cause for rape is sexual in nature, though the results could also be consistent with the 'power' theory if viewing pornography on the internet satisfies cravings for power that otherwise would be acted out as rape. Therefore, these results cannot be fully conclusive on the question.

Rapists in particular are commonly believed to be 'sick' or lunatics. However, a large body of psychological and sociological research has generally concluded that this view is false - so much so that many sexual violence awareness campaigns include the statement 'rapists are mentally ill' as a 'rape myth' to be combated

...it may be that rape proclivities and consumption of pornography are simultaneously driven by some unmeasured factor, such as the inability to attract a mate...

...a potential substitutability with rape derived from the use of pornography to release sexual tension.

The results suggest that potential rapists perceive pornography as a substitute for rape. With the mass market introduction of the world wide web in the late 1990s, both pecuniary and non-pecuniary prices for pornography fell. The associated decline in rape illustrated in the analysis here is consistent with a theory, such as that in Posner (1994), in which pornography is a complement for masturbation or consensual sex, which are themselves substitutes for rape, making pornography a net substitute for rape.
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reply to Subdork/VTMariks comments..

Postby salvadevinemasse on Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:18 pm

subdork wrote:
It remains that it is caused by the natural desire to procreate.

VTMarik: It remains your opinion, that is all. If rapists were just following the natural desire to procreate, why do so many rapists target elderly women who can no longer bear children? Because, they arent driven by a twisted desire to procreate any more than a mother that beats her children bloody is driven by a twisted desire to see them go to college. It is an act of dominating violence designed to control and punish women who do not obey their rules of behaviour. The rapist gains a short feeling of being in control of his otherwise out of control life.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay So I showed this to a friend and he had a twisted/odd point of view..
He said: "I thought some men would want older women for experinence " As twisted as it is.. there are some men that feel that way.

I do agree with you VTMarik.. It is a control thing and that in my POV is all rape is. They want it..they cant have it therefore it turns them on even more and boom there it is in a sense.. you know? Its sad when you have to steal sex from someone though, I think its the most screwed up way of going about it.. After all dont they know there are prostitutes in vegas that'll play role play games for umm like 500$ or so.. maybe less then that I dont know how much they go for these days since I dont know any prostitutes nor have I ever been with one..

Anyways Happy thanks giving every one!

salva-
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My reply to Strike Wolf's comment

Postby salvadevinemasse on Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:49 pm

strike wolf's comment....
He brought up the statistics for the percentage of abortions that are from rape, and he's right abortion is immoral. If you don't want to get pregnant practice birth control.
--------------------------------
Now mine: strike wolf-

What if you can't take birth control? I know for a fact birth control can cause cancer and my family has nothing but cancer in it.. Most of my mothers side has died of different types of cancer. So if I got raped and I wasn't on birth control, is that supposed to make me want the baby? I'm sure I'm not the only female who a doctor would say can't have it, are you saying that if they get raped and pregnant they have it comming because they dont take a tiny pill...?

Your not a rape victom because you never would have said something like that if you were..

Now granted that there are other ways of going about it.. You could give the child up for adoption but most women do not want to carry a child to term if its out of rape..
Would you? I guess thats the real question here.. would you practice what you preach? If not then I dont want to hear another word out of you about this subject.

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Postby salvadevinemasse on Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:17 pm

jay_a2j wrote:

As for unwed people. Yes, sex outside of marriage is sin. Abortion is also sin. So, at least with birth control you eliminate one of the two sins. (this of course, is assuming that the "they're gonna do it anyways" agrument is true)

In closeing, Gods plan is: wait until you are married to have sex.

IN closing, the church is going against one of our most arcane instinct that has been rooted into our subconscious through millions of yeras of evolution because they feel that its "immoral" and give no backing as to why it is except for the fact that they say so.

Funny, because i didn't know it is the most arcane instinct of a mother to kill her own offspring.


It IS, however, a mother's instict to do what is best for her offspring, and if she isn't in a position to raise a child at the time she was pregnant, then she has every right to wait and rasie a child when she is ready to do it.

Having the child at an innopportune time could prevent the mother from doing things like succeeding in college and getting a potentially better job. This would ruin the life of the child she was intending to have.

If we're arguing about "potential lives" here, i much rather think it better to postpone one life, so that the one it "died" for could have a much better life
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay- Jay.... Your partly on my nerves just a tiny bit.. You see, your basically saying everyones going to hell..everyone I know is having sex before marriage and some of us ARENT christian! *did I say that out loud..opps I meant are christ impaired!*

anyways! I know a 16 year old who has sex and when she gets pregnant aborts the baby as soon as possible. No I dont agree with it at all before anyone asks me.. infact I think people who use abortion as birth control should be shot! Never know who your aborting could be our next president for all we know or a scientist who cures cancer or a career student who steals all your money! We dont know is my point here!

Its such a sad day for you jay because I really don't believe in hell.. But since you do...were your parents married when they made you? ahem, ahem! Most people I've heard of these days aren't married before they make their first child. Nor do they realize their first child is around till her second missed period or at least 2 weeks of "missing it".. Can't say we'd actually miss it because Some of us girls hate the cramps...

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Postby jay_a2j on Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:01 am

salvadevinemasse wrote:IN closing, the church is going against one of our most arcane instinct that has been rooted into our subconscious through millions of yeras of evolution because they feel that its "immoral" and give no backing as to why it is except for the fact that they say so.


It is immoral because sex is a gift from God between a man and woman who are married. The two "become one".




It IS, however, a mother's instict to do what is best for her offspring, and if she isn't in a position to raise a child at the time she was pregnant, then she has every right to wait and rasie a child when she is ready to do it.


She has every right to wait til she is married to have sex. Don't get involved in an activity that you are unprepared to handle the consiquences. If she doesn't want a child she shouldn't be doing that which can result in a child. This is the ultimate example of not taking responcibility for your actions!

Having the child at an innopportune time could prevent the mother from doing things like succeeding in college and getting a potentially better job. This would ruin the life of the child she was intending to have.


Which is another reason to abstain til marriage. "Ruin the life of a child"? No, I think being dead would ruin it more.


Okay- Jay.... Your partly on my nerves just a tiny bit.. You see, your basically saying everyones going to hell..everyone I know is having sex before marriage and some of us ARENT christian! *did I say that out loud..opps I meant are christ impaired!*

anyways! I know a 16 year old who has sex and when she gets pregnant aborts the baby as soon as possible. No I dont agree with it at all before anyone asks me.. infact I think people who use abortion as birth control should be shot! Never know who your aborting could be our next president for all we know or a scientist who cures cancer or a career student who steals all your money! We dont know is my point here!

Its such a sad day for you jay because I really don't believe in hell.. But since you do...were your parents married when they made you? ahem, ahem! Most people I've heard of these days aren't married before they make their first child. Nor do they realize their first child is around till her second missed period or at least 2 weeks of "missing it".. Can't say we'd actually miss it because Some of us girls hate the cramps...

Salva



I'm not saying everyone is going to hell. I'm saying everyone sins. Most people are going to hell, "Broad is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it". I wish it wasn't the case. But most people are going to choose to reject God.

Yes my parents were married (I'm 34... unwed motherhood was less prevelent back then). :wink:
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Postby KoolBak on Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:42 am

Have you figured out how to spell "Controversy" yet?
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:44 am

Amen to everything jay just said. Particularly the first bit. Well put.
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Jay

Postby salvadevinemasse on Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:48 am

jay_a2j wrote:
salvadevinemasse wrote:IN closing, the church is going against one of our most arcane instinct that has been rooted into our subconscious through millions of yeras of evolution because they feel that its "immoral" and give no backing as to why it is except for the fact that they say so.


It is immoral because sex is a gift from God between a man and woman who are married. The two "become one".




It IS, however, a mother's instict to do what is best for her offspring, and if she isn't in a position to raise a child at the time she was pregnant, then she has every right to wait and rasie a child when she is ready to do it.


She has every right to wait til she is married to have sex. Don't get involved in an activity that you are unprepared to handle the consiquences. If she doesn't want a child she shouldn't be doing that which can result in a child. This is the ultimate example of not taking responcibility for your actions!

Having the child at an innopportune time could prevent the mother from doing things like succeeding in college and getting a potentially better job. This would ruin the life of the child she was intending to have.


Which is another reason to abstain til marriage. "Ruin the life of a child"? No, I think being dead would ruin it more.


Okay- Jay.... Your partly on my nerves just a tiny bit.. You see, your basically saying everyones going to hell..everyone I know is having sex before marriage and some of us ARENT christian! *did I say that out loud..opps I meant are christ impaired!*

anyways! I know a 16 year old who has sex and when she gets pregnant aborts the baby as soon as possible. No I dont agree with it at all before anyone asks me.. infact I think people who use abortion as birth control should be shot! Never know who your aborting could be our next president for all we know or a scientist who cures cancer or a career student who steals all your money! We dont know is my point here!

Its such a sad day for you jay because I really don't believe in hell.. But since you do...were your parents married when they made you? ahem, ahem! Most people I've heard of these days aren't married before they make their first child. Nor do they realize their first child is around till her second missed period or at least 2 weeks of "missing it".. Can't say we'd actually miss it because Some of us girls hate the cramps...

Salva



I'm not saying everyone is going to hell. I'm saying everyone sins. Most people are going to hell, "Broad is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it". I wish it wasn't the case. But most people are going to choose to reject God.

Yes my parents were married (I'm 34... unwed motherhood was less prevelent back then). :wink:


Jay-
If most people are going to hell though that leaves us with 1 very important question...Who's bringing the beer and snacks!? We cant go to hell without food and beverages! hehehe. We dont choose to reject god there jay.. He hasnt shown proof that he/she/it even exists... isnt god the one who said worship no false idles/gods ect.. whatever the exact wording was.. point is who is the false god? Think about it, because wouldnt that make the jews right? moses had the 10 commandments and I do btw follow them as guidelines to the best of my ability.. However, christianity wasnt brought forth by just the 10 commandments was it? It was also brought forth by the death of jesus, correct? and yet I hear so many say praise jesus when it should be praise god.. *raises eyebrow* So how is that not worshipping a false idle/god? Aren't you guys legally on the verge of breaking 1 of the 10 commandments...?
*I think I made my point well there*...

Salva-
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Re: Jay

Postby jay_a2j on Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:57 am

salvadevinemasse wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
salvadevinemasse wrote:IN closing, the church is going against one of our most arcane instinct that has been rooted into our subconscious through millions of yeras of evolution because they feel that its "immoral" and give no backing as to why it is except for the fact that they say so.


It is immoral because sex is a gift from God between a man and woman who are married. The two "become one".




It IS, however, a mother's instict to do what is best for her offspring, and if she isn't in a position to raise a child at the time she was pregnant, then she has every right to wait and rasie a child when she is ready to do it.


She has every right to wait til she is married to have sex. Don't get involved in an activity that you are unprepared to handle the consiquences. If she doesn't want a child she shouldn't be doing that which can result in a child. This is the ultimate example of not taking responcibility for your actions!

Having the child at an innopportune time could prevent the mother from doing things like succeeding in college and getting a potentially better job. This would ruin the life of the child she was intending to have.


Which is another reason to abstain til marriage. "Ruin the life of a child"? No, I think being dead would ruin it more.


Okay- Jay.... Your partly on my nerves just a tiny bit.. You see, your basically saying everyones going to hell..everyone I know is having sex before marriage and some of us ARENT christian! *did I say that out loud..opps I meant are christ impaired!*

anyways! I know a 16 year old who has sex and when she gets pregnant aborts the baby as soon as possible. No I dont agree with it at all before anyone asks me.. infact I think people who use abortion as birth control should be shot! Never know who your aborting could be our next president for all we know or a scientist who cures cancer or a career student who steals all your money! We dont know is my point here!

Its such a sad day for you jay because I really don't believe in hell.. But since you do...were your parents married when they made you? ahem, ahem! Most people I've heard of these days aren't married before they make their first child. Nor do they realize their first child is around till her second missed period or at least 2 weeks of "missing it".. Can't say we'd actually miss it because Some of us girls hate the cramps...

Salva



I'm not saying everyone is going to hell. I'm saying everyone sins. Most people are going to hell, "Broad is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it". I wish it wasn't the case. But most people are going to choose to reject God.

Yes my parents were married (I'm 34... unwed motherhood was less prevelent back then). :wink:


Jay-
If most people are going to hell though that leaves us with 1 very important question...Who's bringing the beer and snacks!? We cant go to hell without food and beverages! hehehe. We dont choose to reject god there jay.. He hasnt shown proof that he/she/it even exists... isnt god the one who said worship no false idles/gods ect.. whatever the exact wording was.. point is who is the false god? Think about it, because wouldnt that make the jews right? moses had the 10 commandments and I do btw follow them as guidelines to the best of my ability.. However, christianity wasnt brought forth by just the 10 commandments was it? It was also brought forth by the death of jesus, correct? and yet I hear so many say praise jesus when it should be praise god.. *raises eyebrow* So how is that not worshipping a false idle/god? Aren't you guys legally on the verge of breaking 1 of the 10 commandments...?
*I think I made my point well there*...

Salva-


There will be no beer and chips in hell. Its not a party its eternal separation from God.

People say, "Praise Jesus" because He is God. He is part of the Trinity (1 God in three persons)

"God has written on the heart of ALL men the knowledge of Him." You won't be able to say "I didn't know you existed". By rejecting the message of His people you reject Him.


False idols take many forms... MONEY is probably near the top of the list.
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Re: Jay

Postby salvadevinemasse on Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:06 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
salvadevinemasse wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
salvadevinemasse wrote:IN closing, the church is going against one of our most arcane instinct that has been rooted into our subconscious through millions of yeras of evolution because they feel that its "immoral" and give no backing as to why it is except for the fact that they say so.


It is immoral because sex is a gift from God between a man and woman who are married. The two "become one".




It IS, however, a mother's instict to do what is best for her offspring, and if she isn't in a position to raise a child at the time she was pregnant, then she has every right to wait and rasie a child when she is ready to do it.


She has every right to wait til she is married to have sex. Don't get involved in an activity that you are unprepared to handle the consiquences. If she doesn't want a child she shouldn't be doing that which can result in a child. This is the ultimate example of not taking responcibility for your actions!

Having the child at an innopportune time could prevent the mother from doing things like succeeding in college and getting a potentially better job. This would ruin the life of the child she was intending to have.


Which is another reason to abstain til marriage. "Ruin the life of a child"? No, I think being dead would ruin it more.


Okay- Jay.... Your partly on my nerves just a tiny bit.. You see, your basically saying everyones going to hell..everyone I know is having sex before marriage and some of us ARENT christian! *did I say that out loud..opps I meant are christ impaired!*

anyways! I know a 16 year old who has sex and when she gets pregnant aborts the baby as soon as possible. No I dont agree with it at all before anyone asks me.. infact I think people who use abortion as birth control should be shot! Never know who your aborting could be our next president for all we know or a scientist who cures cancer or a career student who steals all your money! We dont know is my point here!

Its such a sad day for you jay because I really don't believe in hell.. But since you do...were your parents married when they made you? ahem, ahem! Most people I've heard of these days aren't married before they make their first child. Nor do they realize their first child is around till her second missed period or at least 2 weeks of "missing it".. Can't say we'd actually miss it because Some of us girls hate the cramps...

Salva



I'm not saying everyone is going to hell. I'm saying everyone sins. Most people are going to hell, "Broad is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it". I wish it wasn't the case. But most people are going to choose to reject God.

Yes my parents were married (I'm 34... unwed motherhood was less prevelent back then). :wink:


Jay-
If most people are going to hell though that leaves us with 1 very important question...Who's bringing the beer and snacks!? We cant go to hell without food and beverages! hehehe. We dont choose to reject god there jay.. He hasnt shown proof that he/she/it even exists... isnt god the one who said worship no false idles/gods ect.. whatever the exact wording was.. point is who is the false god? Think about it, because wouldnt that make the jews right? moses had the 10 commandments and I do btw follow them as guidelines to the best of my ability.. However, christianity wasnt brought forth by just the 10 commandments was it? It was also brought forth by the death of jesus, correct? and yet I hear so many say praise jesus when it should be praise god.. *raises eyebrow* So how is that not worshipping a false idle/god? Aren't you guys legally on the verge of breaking 1 of the 10 commandments...?
*I think I made my point well there*...

Salva-


There will be no beer and chips in hell. Its not a party its eternal separation from God.

People say, "Praise Jesus" because He is God. He is part of the Trinity (1 God in three persons)

"God has written on the heart of ALL men the knowledge of Him." You won't be able to say "I didn't know you existed". By rejecting the message of His people you reject Him.


False idols take many forms... MONEY is probably near the top of the list.


And yet here I was thinking jesus was a MAN! Not a god.. hmm who would have guessed god could bleed like a normal human? I didnt think that was possible since god is supposed to be an essence not a human..
Then again what do I know I was just rejected by the christians at birth right?... How could a child as evil as me know anything about this bible people try on/off to stuff down others throats..

Salva-
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Re: Jay

Postby Aradhus on Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:45 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
False idols take many forms... MONEY is probably near the top of the list.


Then you would be for removing the "In God we Trust" from the US dollar?
salvadevinemasse wrote:And yet here I was thinking jesus was a MAN! Not a god.. hmm who would have guessed god could bleed like a normal human? I didnt think that was possible since god is supposed to be an essence not a human..
Then again what do I know I was just rejected by the christians at birth right?... How could a child as evil as me know anything about this bible people try on/off to stuff down others throats..

Salva-


A Perfect Adam could not die. Jesus died, therefore he was not a perfect man as Christians erroneously claim.
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Re: Jay

Postby salvadevinemasse on Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:48 pm

Aradhus wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
False idols take many forms... MONEY is probably near the top of the list.


Then you would be for removing the "In God we Trust" from the US dollar?
salvadevinemasse wrote:And yet here I was thinking jesus was a MAN! Not a god.. hmm who would have guessed god could bleed like a normal human? I didnt think that was possible since god is supposed to be an essence not a human..
Then again what do I know I was just rejected by the christians at birth right?... How could a child as evil as me know anything about this bible people try on/off to stuff down others throats..

Salva-


A Perfect Adam could not die. Jesus died, therefore he was not a perfect man as Christians erroneously claim.


Woohoo good point! So does that mean they should really be saying praise adam? lol
Salva-
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Re: Jay

Postby vtmarik on Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:10 pm

Aradhus wrote:A Perfect Adam could not die. Jesus died, therefore he was not a perfect man as Christians erroneously claim.


Also, something perfect cannot sin (God, for instance) and since God created man in his perfect image, Man must be perfect.

Then perfect God created a woman from this perfect man, thus the woman is perfect.

Then the perfect woman eats the fruit after being spoken to by a talking snake and thus becomes imperfect by committing the original sin.

Sin is an imperfection, however man and woman are both perfect. This is a logical impasse.

This logical impasse is easily ignored when you reinterpret the essence of the Tree of Knowledge. The tree of knowledge is the tree of consciousness, the tree of the freed mind. Once you have achieved self-awareness, a perfect world (Eden) can no longer serve all of your needs, because you have grown beyond the need for total perfection. You are able to comprehend imperfection, and thus must leave the Garden.

The Bible diverges from these conclusions however, and becomes the original passion play designed to make Christians feel like they need the Church and that they need the trappings of the Institution in order to be saved (hence the creation of Jesus as God). Any reference to his mortality (i.e. the possibility of his marriage to Mary Magdalene as suggested in fiction works like The DaVinci code) or any reference to a teaching that would undermine the Church's authority (i.e. Jesus teachings about the jewish/gnostic concept of reincarnation).

Largely, the DaVinci Code is indeed fiction. However it does contain some kernels of truth (the declaration of the Knights Templar having 'limitless power', the Maleus Maleficarum and its use in executing women, the existence of the gnostic gospels of Phillip and Mary Magdalene, the Council of Nisire [unsure of spelling]). These are ideas that many people have played with before the book was written.

Jay, you can call me brainwashed, but that's just a defense mechanism and I can understand it.
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Postby Aradhus on Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:28 pm

Do you mean the Nicean council?
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Postby OwnsLester on Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:56 pm

Here's my problem with Jay. First you say that there is a difference between an unborn child and a 16 year old that kills his family. Then, for some reason, you assume a child and a cluster of cells are the same thing.
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Re: Jay

Postby morph on Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:35 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
salvadevinemasse wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
salvadevinemasse wrote:IN closing, the church is going against one of our most arcane instinct that has been rooted into our subconscious through millions of yeras of evolution because they feel that its "immoral" and give no backing as to why it is except for the fact that they say so.


It is immoral because sex is a gift from God between a man and woman who are married. The two "become one".




It IS, however, a mother's instict to do what is best for her offspring, and if she isn't in a position to raise a child at the time she was pregnant, then she has every right to wait and rasie a child when she is ready to do it.


She has every right to wait til she is married to have sex. Don't get involved in an activity that you are unprepared to handle the consiquences. If she doesn't want a child she shouldn't be doing that which can result in a child. This is the ultimate example of not taking responcibility for your actions!

Having the child at an innopportune time could prevent the mother from doing things like succeeding in college and getting a potentially better job. This would ruin the life of the child she was intending to have.


Which is another reason to abstain til marriage. "Ruin the life of a child"? No, I think being dead would ruin it more.


Okay- Jay.... Your partly on my nerves just a tiny bit.. You see, your basically saying everyones going to hell..everyone I know is having sex before marriage and some of us ARENT christian! *did I say that out loud..opps I meant are christ impaired!*

anyways! I know a 16 year old who has sex and when she gets pregnant aborts the baby as soon as possible. No I dont agree with it at all before anyone asks me.. infact I think people who use abortion as birth control should be shot! Never know who your aborting could be our next president for all we know or a scientist who cures cancer or a career student who steals all your money! We dont know is my point here!

Its such a sad day for you jay because I really don't believe in hell.. But since you do...were your parents married when they made you? ahem, ahem! Most people I've heard of these days aren't married before they make their first child. Nor do they realize their first child is around till her second missed period or at least 2 weeks of "missing it".. Can't say we'd actually miss it because Some of us girls hate the cramps...

Salva



I'm not saying everyone is going to hell. I'm saying everyone sins. Most people are going to hell, "Broad is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it". I wish it wasn't the case. But most people are going to choose to reject God.

Yes my parents were married (I'm 34... unwed motherhood was less prevelent back then). :wink:


Jay-
If most people are going to hell though that leaves us with 1 very important question...Who's bringing the beer and snacks!? We cant go to hell without food and beverages! hehehe. We dont choose to reject god there jay.. He hasnt shown proof that he/she/it even exists... isnt god the one who said worship no false idles/gods ect.. whatever the exact wording was.. point is who is the false god? Think about it, because wouldnt that make the jews right? moses had the 10 commandments and I do btw follow them as guidelines to the best of my ability.. However, christianity wasnt brought forth by just the 10 commandments was it? It was also brought forth by the death of jesus, correct? and yet I hear so many say praise jesus when it should be praise god.. *raises eyebrow* So how is that not worshipping a false idle/god? Aren't you guys legally on the verge of breaking 1 of the 10 commandments...?
*I think I made my point well there*...

Salva-


There will be no beer and chips in hell. Its not a party its eternal separation from God.

People say, "Praise Jesus" because He is God. He is part of the Trinity (1 God in three persons)

"God has written on the heart of ALL men the knowledge of Him." You won't be able to say "I didn't know you existed". By rejecting the message of His people you reject Him.


False idols take many forms... MONEY is probably near the top of the list.



Jay, question, i have no knowledge written on my heart that your God exists (assuming the heart would mean like you auto feel that there is a god) from the day i was born dead and brought back to life ive never felt that there is anything out there, ive searched, tried out many different religions and checked on science and still i feel nothing, nothing is out there it would seem. soo does this mean i am not a Man, or HuMAN, am i a demon in a huminoid body? i have never rejected your god, i just want proof, i want to feel that god is there yet i do not feel a god is there or gods are there so i do not worship any, i mean by your words and the whole do not worship a false idol.... if i worship nothing then i am not breaking that commandment...


o ya, umm considering most parties invovle breaking the commandments in some way, shape, or form, meaning we are sinning, meaning that we are seperating from your god, it can be assumed that it is gonna be a party... a very big and very interesting/cool party...


ownslester, umm tech to defend jay (yes, sometimes i do, cuz for all his religiousness i still like him ^.^ and respect that he states his opinions and will fight to the end for his ideals...) in science, tech every living being is nothing but a cluster of cells, the only thing that is really different is what they learn with a cluster of cells that make up the brain.... so ya... well also maybe the soul but we arnt talking about a soul here..
I am slowly going insane, thanks to Jay, Brandon (the douch tool) and sammy gags for his pic of bubba....
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Re: Jay

Postby salvadevinemasse on Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:15 pm

morph wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
salvadevinemasse wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
salvadevinemasse wrote:IN closing, the church is going against one of our most arcane instinct that has been rooted into our subconscious through millions of yeras of evolution because they feel that its "immoral" and give no backing as to why it is except for the fact that they say so.


It is immoral because sex is a gift from God between a man and woman who are married. The two "become one".




It IS, however, a mother's instict to do what is best for her offspring, and if she isn't in a position to raise a child at the time she was pregnant, then she has every right to wait and rasie a child when she is ready to do it.


She has every right to wait til she is married to have sex. Don't get involved in an activity that you are unprepared to handle the consiquences. If she doesn't want a child she shouldn't be doing that which can result in a child. This is the ultimate example of not taking responcibility for your actions!

Having the child at an innopportune time could prevent the mother from doing things like succeeding in college and getting a potentially better job. This would ruin the life of the child she was intending to have.


Which is another reason to abstain til marriage. "Ruin the life of a child"? No, I think being dead would ruin it more.


Okay- Jay.... Your partly on my nerves just a tiny bit.. You see, your basically saying everyones going to hell..everyone I know is having sex before marriage and some of us ARENT christian! *did I say that out loud..opps I meant are christ impaired!*

anyways! I know a 16 year old who has sex and when she gets pregnant aborts the baby as soon as possible. No I dont agree with it at all before anyone asks me.. infact I think people who use abortion as birth control should be shot! Never know who your aborting could be our next president for all we know or a scientist who cures cancer or a career student who steals all your money! We dont know is my point here!

Its such a sad day for you jay because I really don't believe in hell.. But since you do...were your parents married when they made you? ahem, ahem! Most people I've heard of these days aren't married before they make their first child. Nor do they realize their first child is around till her second missed period or at least 2 weeks of "missing it".. Can't say we'd actually miss it because Some of us girls hate the cramps...

Salva



I'm not saying everyone is going to hell. I'm saying everyone sins. Most people are going to hell, "Broad is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it". I wish it wasn't the case. But most people are going to choose to reject God.

Yes my parents were married (I'm 34... unwed motherhood was less prevelent back then). :wink:


Jay-
If most people are going to hell though that leaves us with 1 very important question...Who's bringing the beer and snacks!? We cant go to hell without food and beverages! hehehe. We dont choose to reject god there jay.. He hasnt shown proof that he/she/it even exists... isnt god the one who said worship no false idles/gods ect.. whatever the exact wording was.. point is who is the false god? Think about it, because wouldnt that make the jews right? moses had the 10 commandments and I do btw follow them as guidelines to the best of my ability.. However, christianity wasnt brought forth by just the 10 commandments was it? It was also brought forth by the death of jesus, correct? and yet I hear so many say praise jesus when it should be praise god.. *raises eyebrow* So how is that not worshipping a false idle/god? Aren't you guys legally on the verge of breaking 1 of the 10 commandments...?
*I think I made my point well there*...

Salva-


There will be no beer and chips in hell. Its not a party its eternal separation from God.

People say, "Praise Jesus" because He is God. He is part of the Trinity (1 God in three persons)

"God has written on the heart of ALL men the knowledge of Him." You won't be able to say "I didn't know you existed". By rejecting the message of His people you reject Him.


False idols take many forms... MONEY is probably near the top of the list.



Jay, question, i have no knowledge written on my heart that your God exists (assuming the heart would mean like you auto feel that there is a god) from the day i was born dead and brought back to life ive never felt that there is anything out there, ive searched, tried out many different religions and checked on science and still i feel nothing, nothing is out there it would seem. soo does this mean i am not a Man, or HuMAN, am i a demon in a huminoid body? i have never rejected your god, i just want proof, i want to feel that god is there yet i do not feel a god is there or gods are there so i do not worship any, i mean by your words and the whole do not worship a false idol.... if i worship nothing then i am not breaking that commandment...


o ya, umm considering most parties invovle breaking the commandments in some way, shape, or form, meaning we are sinning, meaning that we are seperating from your god, it can be assumed that it is gonna be a party... a very big and very interesting/cool party...


ownslester, umm tech to defend jay (yes, sometimes i do, cuz for all his religiousness i still like him ^.^ and respect that he states his opinions and will fight to the end for his ideals...) in science, tech every living being is nothing but a cluster of cells, the only thing that is really different is what they learn with a cluster of cells that make up the brain.... so ya... well also maybe the soul but we arnt talking about a soul here..



Morph-
Yup...PARTY! so whos bringing the beer and snacks? I respect jay for being honest too and I don't doubt that he believes what he does I just dont see why people seem to love throughing it in other peoples face if they dont believe the same thing you know? I dont know it just feels like some people (not refering to anyone specific) like to through things in others faces and just get off on it.. So as I said...Who Is Bringing All The Beer And Snacks!!? Maybe we can have a chess game, along with billiards match there in hell while we wait for our host? lol

Salva-
"angel by heart....mistress dressed sexy by night....and by day..just a cool person i guess" By BlueReaper

cawck mongler wrote:Your only option is to quit and become an anti-American Nazi that plays risk.


~*Salva*~
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