Please explain to me the "Michael Richards incident&quo

[mandalorian2298]

Ok, here is what I saw and heard: Michael Richards called the black man a "nigger". That man called Michael Richards a "cracker" (wich, I presume is a derogative term for a "white man").
The general conclusio is: Michael Richards is a racist!!
My questions are: If this was a racistic incident, how many racists were involved, one or two? If "nigger" is a derogative and, apparently, unacceptable term, why do black people call each other "nigger"?

I understand that, if you are an American, you probably consider this general knowlledge, but I am not an American and I would appriciate if you could explain your exotic customs to me, so that I may better understand your culture. Tnx in advance.

[Skittlesandmnms]

I think of the word 'nigger' as meaning a worthless person. There can be worthless black people, but I know more worthless white people. I don't think I actually know any worthless black people.

Also, it's fun to say. Especially in describing (in a joking manner) someone who makes the Pillsberry dough boy look tan

[Stopper]

Ok, here is what I saw and heard: Michael Richards called the black man a "nigger". That man called Michael Richards a "cracker" (wich, I presume is a derogative term for a "white man").
The general conclusio is: Michael Richards is a racist!!

A white man calling a black man a nigger in a white-dominated society is generally more threatening than a black man doing the reverse. Nevertheless, it seems pretty obvious to me Kramer DID make a racist insult. What's your point?

My questions are: If this was a racistic incident, how many racists were involved, one or two? If "nigger" is a derogative and, apparently, unacceptable term, why do black people call each other "nigger"?

There are two racists, I suppose, but hardly at the same level. After all, Kramer had the stage, and repeated his insult over and over again, while the black man was just a heckler.

EDIT: Forgot to say, your poll question is loaded and I didn't bother answering it. No-one gives a shit whether the odd black man is racist, but I was disappointed when I heard that KRAMER said what he did.

[ksslemp]

Somebody calling a Black man a Nigger, doesn't mean they're Racist!

When you are trying to insult somebody, you say things that they'd be insulted by! Should he have yelled "You're an African-American"!? Boy that would have been tough to take.

The guy was pissed off, and acted like a "Normal" pissed off person, End of Story!

[vtmarik]

If you've watched the video it seems that he was originally trying to make a joke out of it but just unraveled right through it.

Sucks too, because that could've been a decent joke had he stepped back and went "Kinda went overboard didn't I?" and made a funny face.

[mandalorian2298]

Ok, here is what I saw and heard: Michael Richards called the black man a "nigger". That man called Michael Richards a "cracker" (wich, I presume is a derogative term for a "white man").
The general conclusio is: Michael Richards is a racist!!

A white man calling a black man a nigger in a white-dominated society is generally more threatening than a black man doing the reverse. Nevertheless, it seems pretty obvious to me Kramer DID make a racist insult. What's your point?

My questions are: If this was a racistic incident, how many racists were involved, one or two? If "nigger" is a derogative and, apparently, unacceptable term, why do black people call each other "nigger"?

There are two racists, I suppose, but hardly at the same level. After all, Kramer had the stage, and repeated his insult over and over again, while the black man was just a heckler.

EDIT: Forgot to say, your poll question is loaded and I didn't bother answering it. No-one gives a shit whether the odd black man is racist, but I was disappointed when I heard that KRAMER said what he did.

If the Amercan society is white-dominated as you claim it is, how come that only WHITE racists or WHITE people making racistic insults are criticized? Why aren't these white-dominators preventing it by protecting their own? Is American society dominated by white masochists?

When you are trying to insult somebody, you say things that they'd be insulted by! Should he have yelled "You're an African-American"!? Boy that would have been tough to take.

My point exactly! In my (Croatian) society, people are lot less sensitive when they are insulting somebody, but at least our insults are among the gratest in the WORLD!

[Stopper]

There are two racists, I suppose, but hardly at the same level. After all, Kramer had the stage, and repeated his insult over and over again, while the black man was just a heckler.

EDIT: Forgot to say, your poll question is loaded and I didn't bother answering it. No-one gives a shit whether the odd black man is racist, but I was disappointed when I heard that KRAMER said what he did.

If the Amercan society is white-dominated as you claim it is, how come that only WHITE racists or WHITE people making racistic insults are criticized? Why aren't these white-dominators preventing it by protecting their own? Is American society dominated by white masochists?

I CLAIM American society is white-dominated?? By domination, I meant by sheer numbers, but I don't think you'll find any SANE person arguing that blacks and hispanics now have complete equality in any form with white people.

The reason, as I've already implied above, that Michael Richards was picked out on this occasion is because A) he had the stage and B) he's a celebrity. Like I said, no-one gives a shit if an ordinary man is racist or not, because if they DID, the US & European newspapers would be full of nothing except examples of racist people - and they'd generally be white - most Americans and Europeans are white, see?

When you are trying to insult somebody, you say things that they'd be insulted by! Should he have yelled "You're an African-American"!? Boy that would have been tough to take.

My point exactly! In my (Croatian) society, people are lot less sensitive when they are insulting somebody, but at least our insults are among the gratest in the WORLD!

I noticed you were Croatian when you first posted. I couldn't possibly comment on whether Croatian society has a healthier attitude to race, I don't know enough about it - I mean 20th century Croatian history as far as race is concerned is a bit dodgy, isn't it?

[mandalorian2298]

When you are trying to insult somebody, you say things that they'd be insulted by! Should he have yelled "You're an African-American"!? Boy that would have been tough to take.

My point exactly! In my (Croatian) society, people are lot less sensitive when they are insulting somebody, but at least our insults are among the gratest in the WORLD!

I noticed you were Croatian when you first posted. I couldn't possibly comment on whether Croatian society has a healthier attitude to race, I don't know enough about it - I mean 20th century Croatian history as far as race is concerned is a bit dodgy, isn't it?

You are dead wrong, mate. NDH (Independent State of Croatia) was an effort of making Croatia indipendent (I hope you don't think the Irish are potential racists too, because they saw WWII as an opportunity to rid THEIR island of the English inveders). Ustaski regime didn't care at all about dominance of the Arian race(after all, Hitler planed to "purge" all Slavenenic nations of the face of the Earth, too). They just made a cynical political decision to side up with Nazists and help them in their idiotic "cleansing" of the world, because they thought he would win and they would profit from it.
But, there is a reason why many Croatians (mostly young) identify with Ustasas. That reason lies in the fact that "Ustasa" if an insulting term for Croat, used mostly by Serbs ("Chetnik" is a insulting term for Serb). But, there-in lies my point: When a Serb and a Croat insult each-other by using those words they are not accused of being nationalists (as long as they have a reason for arguing appart from the fact that other guy is Serb/Croat), but of being rude. More, the terms "Ustasa" and "Chetnik", despite their origin (Ustasas were nazis and Chetniks were buchers) have lost part of their insulting meaning, because to be insulted because somebody calls you Chetnik/Ustasa would be like feeling ashamed of belonging to your nation, wich is the acctual target of such insults. Besides, very few people today can really be accused for belonging to Ustasas or Chetniks (beside people who fought in para-military groups thus named).

The reason why I can't understand the sotonization of the word "nigger" is that, when you take away the insult, it means only "black man". A Croat or a Serb have some right to be insulted by the words "Chetnik" or "Ustasa", because those words mean not only "Serb" or "Croat", but also "war-criminal". It is a sting into your nations sordid past. Personaly, I am not ashamed of it, because I wasn't even born when NDH begun and ended, but people with more national pride (if they also happen to be rational enough) feel ashamed that their nation commited such crimes (for example Serbian singer Djodje Balsevic made a song called "We are guilty" in wich he states that responsibility for Crotian-Serbian-Bosnian war lies on serbian people for not preventing it, as well as on madmen who started the war like Milosevic. I am sad to say that no self-criticizing song has, as far as I know, ever been made by a Croatian singer). But, for a black man to feel ashamed for being called a "nigger" is to be ashamed of his own race. And that is IMO just plain stupid.[/i]

[Stopper]

My point exactly! In my (Croatian) society, people are lot less sensitive when they are insulting somebody, but at least our insults are among the gratest in the WORLD!

I noticed you were Croatian when you first posted. I couldn't possibly comment on whether Croatian society has a healthier attitude to race, I don't know enough about it - I mean 20th century Croatian history as far as race is concerned is a bit dodgy, isn't it?

You are dead wrong, mate. NDH (Independent State of Croatia) was an effort of making Croatia indipendent (I hope you don't think the Irish are potential racists too, because they saw WWII as an opportunity to rid THEIR island of the English inveders). Ustaski regime didn't care at all about dominance of the Arian race(after all, Hitler planed to "purge" all Slavenenic nations of the face of the Earth, too). They just made a cynical political decision to side up with Nazists and help them in their idiotic "cleansing" of the world, because they thought he would win and they would profit from it.

I brought this up because you said Croatian society is less sensitive than others when it comes to (presumably racial) insults. I say that doesn't mean anything - if you aren't as sensitive to racial insults, then maybe you're the ones with the problem.

I accept Croatia & other nations (Finland, Romania, Estonia, etc etc) in Eastern Europe had to choose between the Nazis and the Communists, but nevertheless, the fact remains that Croatia HAS fought wars along sectarian and racial lines, and so with that history I wouldn't necessarily assume Croatians had the healthiest attitude to race.

As to Ireland, BTW, of course they're just as potentially racist as the rest of us. Northern Ireland has the biggest collection of sectarian bigots in the whole of the British Isles.

The reason why I can't understand the sotonization of the word "nigger" is that, when you take away the insult, it means only "black man".... But, for a black man to feel ashamed for being called a "nigger" is to be ashamed of his own race. And that is IMO just plain stupid.[/i]

And where I have bolded is where your argument falls down - if you are familiar with the English language, then you will know you can't take away the racial insult because it is already there -it is inherent. Everyone knows what "nigger" means. Only an autist or someone with English as a foreign language would think it simply meant "black man".

[slash1890]

This requires a quick history lesson.

Back in the 1800s, in America, the word "nigger" was used as a derogatory term for a black slave. For example, a slave driver would say something like "get back to work, nigger!", and the black man would be humiliated and offended.

After slavery was revoked, white people were no longer allowed to put black people into slavery, but black people were still looked down upon. The word "nigger" was still used as an insult to a black person, but there wasn't really anything that protected him by law, yet. Until the '50s and '60s blacks were segregated from whites in all ways (blacks had to sit in the back of the bus, blacks had to use separate water fountains, blacks had to go to black-only schools, etc.), but it was politically correct at the time.

During the '50s and '60s, however, black people started to fight for their rights. It paid off, and eventually black people received equal rights as white people.

What this means today, is that whenever a white man calls a black man a "nigger," it is racism, because everyone has equal rights. However, the word "cracker" is a term blacks use against whites as an attempt at a racist derogatory term, but technically it isn't racism.

In short:

Black people are allowed to call their black friends niggers. White people are not allowed to call black people niggers. Black people are allowed to call white people crackers. White people are allowed to call their white friends crackers.

I realize it does not make much sense in a fair world, but black people in America generally get the benefit of the doubt because of our history with them.

[mandalorian2298]

I brought this up because you said Croatian society is less sensitive than others when it comes to (presumably racial) insults. I say that doesn't mean anything - if you aren't as sensitive to racial insults, then maybe you're the ones with the problem.

You presumption is wrong. I was talking about the fact that in Crotia there is still a majority of people who know that words are just words. Were it know so, every time that one Croatian told another: "Jebem ti mater, pederu!" the insulted person would have rush to his mother to ask here: "Are you cheating on Dad ?", and then rush to his psyhiatrist to ask find out how and why he so suddenly became gay .
Insults are part of human communication and IMO it is better to alow people to say what they have in mind then force them to keep it bottled-up until they explode and do some real harm. If an American is not allowed to say the truth about how he feels in ANY given moment, why are Americans allways saying that they live in "the Land of the Free" (and if somebody can stop you from saying anything you want to say, than the "home of the brave" concept looks a bit illusional, too)?

I accept Croatia & other nations (Finland, Romania, Estonia, etc etc) in Eastern Europe had to choose between the Nazis and the Communists, but nevertheless, the fact remains that Croatia HAS fought wars along sectarian and racial lines, and so with that history I wouldn't necessarily assume Croatians had the healthiest attitude to race.

Acctualy, communism came to Croatia after NDH has fallen and Croatia became part of Yugoslavia. But, I'm proud to say that Yugoslavia has been one (and probably only) example of succesfull communist regime. This was so because of the Yugoslavian Marsal (life-long president) Josip Broz "Tito", who based Yugoslavian economy on gathering somthing like "protection money" from both SSSR and USA in exchange for wich Yugoslavia wouldn't join their opposing side (Tito was also a dictator who allowed little political freedom and was harsh in punishing his political adverseries, but apart from the little faults like being a tyrant he was a great leader )

The reason why I can't understand the sotonization of the word "nigger" is that, when you take away the insult, it means only "black man".... But, for a black man to feel ashamed for being called a "nigger" is to be ashamed of his own race. And that is IMO just plain stupid.[/i]

And where I have bolded is where your argument falls down - if you are familiar with the English language, then you will know you can't take away the racial insult because it is already there -it is inherent. Everyone knows what "nigger" means. Only an autist or someone with English as a foreign language would think it simply meant "black man".

So, you think a black man SHOULD be ashamed when somebody calls them "nigger"? Well, as I said before, I don't agree. As for myself, feel fre to call me "cracker", "honky" or, if this is the only racial insult in the universe, by all means "nigger". I feel hurt by none of those words.

[vtmarik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECjl7okapTk
The Incident, On Tape.

At the beginning of his rant, it looks like he tried to turn it into a joke.

"See, that shocks you..."

But his temper got the best of him when the hecklers kept on going.


And on the subject, if we really want racism to stop maybe we should quit being so sensitive. The banning of a word (f*ck, shit, nigger, etc.) gives it power.

Are there any niggers here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any niggers here tonight?" I know there's one nigger, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two niggers. And between those two niggers sits a kike. And there's another kike— that's two kikes and three niggers. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. And there's one, hip, thick, hunky, funky, boogie. Boogie boogie. Mm-hmm. I got three kikes here, do I hear five kikes? I got five kikes, do I hear six spics, I got six spics, do I hear seven niggers? I got seven niggers. Sold American. I pass with seven niggers, six spics, five micks, four kikes, three guineas, and one wop.

Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness. Dig: if President Kennedy would just go on television, and say, "I would like to introduce you to all the niggers in my cabinet," and if he'd just say "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" to every nigger he saw, "boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie," "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" 'til nigger didn't mean anything anymore, then you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a nigger at school.

[Beastly]

[quote="mandalorian2298"]why do black people call each other "nigger"?

I am American and have been wondering about this ? for years...

[Stopper]

I brought this up because you said Croatian society is less sensitive than others when it comes to (presumably racial) insults. I say that doesn't mean anything - if you aren't as sensitive to racial insults, then maybe you're the ones with the problem.

You presumption is wrong. I was talking about the fact that in Crotia there is still a majority of people who know that words are just words. Were it know so, every time that one Croatian told another: "Jebem ti mater, pederu!" the insulted person would have rush to his mother to ask here: "Are you cheating on Dad ?", and then rush to his psyhiatrist to ask find out how and why he so suddenly became gay .
Insults are part of human communication and IMO it is better to alow people to say what they have in mind then force them to keep it bottled-up until they explode and do some real harm. If an American is not allowed to say the truth about how he feels in ANY given moment, why are Americans allways saying that they live in "the Land of the Free" (and if somebody can stop you from saying anything you want to say, than the "home of the brave" concept looks a bit illusional, too)?

Michael Richards has the freedom to say what he wants. That is why he has not been arrested, nor will he be. Nevertheless, society has the right to say what is unacceptable (if not criminal).

Word are just words. OK, go up to your mother and say your father's cheating on her. Afterwards, tell her it was just a joke.

Words convey ideas - that's why we have them. And the word "nigger" conveys an idea that's no longer societally acceptable, for the reasons slash1890 has given.

The reason why I can't understand the sotonization of the word "nigger" is that, when you take away the insult, it means only "black man".... But, for a black man to feel ashamed for being called a "nigger" is to be ashamed of his own race. And that is IMO just plain stupid.[/i]

And where I have bolded is where your argument falls down - if you are familiar with the English language, then you will know you can't take away the racial insult because it is already there -it is inherent. Everyone knows what "nigger" means. Only an autist or someone with English as a foreign language would think it simply meant "black man".

So, you think a black man SHOULD be ashamed when somebody calls them "nigger"? Well, as I said before, I don't agree. As for myself, feel fre to call me "cracker", "honky" or, if this is the only racial insult in the universe, by all means "nigger". I feel hurt by none of those words.

No, I mean the black man should take offence at the inherent insult in the word, not that anyone should describe him a "black man" per se. And as to being called "honky" by black people, I doubt this situation is likely to arise for you, but say you found yourself living in a black-dominated area of the world, (such as West Ham, London), you don't think you'd have a problem with being singled out by the black people just for being white?

[Stopper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECjl7okapTk
The Incident, On Tape.

At the beginning of his rant, it looks like he tried to turn it into a joke.

"See, that shocks you..."

But his temper got the best of him when the hecklers kept on going.

I dare say it did - I haven't seen the video yet (but I will), but simply from the newspaper description, I could see it was an attempt at a joke, and I can imagine exactly how he'd do it, and it fell flat. Unfortunate heat-of-the-moment decision for him, but nevertheless, he was supposed to be professional enough to know not to do it. He's not getting arrested or anything, he apologised on TV, but we all know that what he did was stupid.

And on the subject, if we really want racism to stop maybe we should quit being so sensitive. The banning of a word (f*ck, shit, nigger, etc.) gives it power.

Are there any niggers here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any niggers here tonight?" I know there's one nigger, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two niggers. And between those two niggers sits a kike. And there's another kike— that's two kikes and three niggers. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. And there's one, hip, thick, hunky, funky, boogie. Boogie boogie. Mm-hmm. I got three kikes here, do I hear five kikes? I got five kikes, do I hear six spics, I got six spics, do I hear seven niggers? I got seven niggers. Sold American. I pass with seven niggers, six spics, five micks, four kikes, three guineas, and one wop.

Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness. Dig: if President Kennedy would just go on television, and say, "I would like to introduce you to all the niggers in my cabinet," and if he'd just say "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" to every nigger he saw, "boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie," "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" 'til nigger didn't mean anything anymore, then you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a nigger at school.

Yeah, that's really nice, if only everyone could just get along, racial insults wouldn't matter. I want to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony ... Sorry for the sarcasm, but we do all live in the real world, no?

why do black people call each other "nigger"?

I am American and have been wondering about this ? for years...

I don't know, I ain't black, but it's never seemed right to me, and I don't think it is OK, either. For some reason I'm annoyed by this thread...so I'll simmer down for the time being.

EDIT: I forgot to add, of course, I dare say most don't use the term.