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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby jj3044 on Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:51 pm

Phatscotty wrote:perfect example of how whatever the government touches explodes it's price/destroys it's market.

Hospitals Plot the End of Insurance Companies

The problems with the implementation of the Affordable Care Act may be masking another major change in the way health care is delivered to U.S. consumers, experts believe.

At The Atlantic's Health Care Forum in Washington on Thursday, health care and business professionals said that there’s an increasing trend in the industry toward cutting insurance companies out of the process entirely, as large, regional hospital systems move into the insurance business.

Related: Obamacare - Taxpayers in the Hole for $1.5 Trillion

Dr. Kenneth L. Davis, CEO and president of Mount Sinai Health System, the largest health care provider in the state of New York, said that starting next year, Mt. Sinai will begin offering its own Medicare Advantage plan. It will look for other opportunities to bring premium payments directly into the hospital system, rather than filtering them through insurance companies.

Davis said he expects organizations similar to his to move in the same direction. “Inevitably the large systems are going to move to take part of the premium dollar,” he said.

For both non-profit systems like Mt. Sinai and for-profit systems, he said, retaining more and more of the health care premiums paid by consumers is essential to providing a full spectrum of care. He said that his system’s St. Luke’s Hospital in New York runs a psychiatric program that loses $14 million per year.

It’s “not sustainable,” he said, so the system needs to cross-subsidize the money-losing services that it nonetheless must continue to provide, with income from more profitable services, such as orthopedic surgery.

Related: White House Ramps Up Final Obamacare Push

The industry, he said, is facing “an entire reformulation of how we pay for services.” The point is not to squeeze more profit out of the system, but to preserve the system’s ability to provide care. “If we don’t put those dollars back into the underpaid discipline, you just end up with underpaid disciplines that can’t be cross-subsidized.”

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, chairman of the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania and one of the architects of the Affordable Care Act, agreed, saying that we’re beginning to see what he called the “Kaiserification” of our health care system.

He was referring to the Kaiser Permanente health care consortium, which combines a health insurance company with subsidiary hospitals and medical practices to create a fully integrated health care delivery system. He noted that large insurer Wellpoint recently completed the acquisition of a health care company in California, apparently with an eye toward replicating the Kaiser model in some form.

Emanuel said we’re witnessing “the end of insurance companies as we know them” and that if they want to survive, they “will have to get into the business of providing care.”

He predicted that in the world of health care, “the wave of the future is integrated delivery systems – integrating insurance with delivery function.”


- See more at: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/ ... cAPX7.dpuf

I don't see how this article shows that the government exploded the price, or destroys it's market. In essence these hospital systems are becoming an insurer as well, meaning there will be more competition, potentially driving down costs. Also, it might incentive these systems to find ways of providing more efficient care with better outcomes (such as preventing re-admissions). It might not be a bad thing.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:09 am

I'll sub-in for PhatScotty.


The Charts Obama Doesn't Want You to See

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http://blog.heritage.org/2014/04/11/oba ... t-want-see
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby jj3044 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:43 am

I thought scotty was just quiet because we supposedly enrolled more than 7.1 million new participants in insurance, beating expectations.

Yes, in most states premiums for young individuals went up, but for older individuals (and women in general) have gone down. This was anticipated the entire time... not new news.

The government did a terrible job putting together the federal marketplace and shifting deadlines, that I will completely agree with you. However, hopefully the results through the next few years will speak for themselves.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby patches70 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:22 am

There were supposedly 30 million uninsured Americans, which is why we supposedly needed Obamacare. The CBO says that there will still be 30 million uninsured Americans, despite Obamacare.

Yes, the results will speak for themselves.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 2518,d.b2U

Or if you prefer, CBS news-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 2518,d.b2U

Plenty of others all say the same thing, let us not forget the stated goal of Obamacare is that all Americans have insurance. To that goal Obamacare has done absolutely nothing at all.

Are those the results you are referring to?
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Symmetry on Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:33 pm

patches70 wrote:There were supposedly 30 million uninsured Americans, which is why we supposedly needed Obamacare. The CBO says that there will still be 30 million uninsured Americans, despite Obamacare.

Yes, the results will speak for themselves.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 2518,d.b2U

Or if you prefer, CBS news-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 2518,d.b2U

Plenty of others all say the same thing, let us not forget the stated goal of Obamacare is that all Americans have insurance. To that goal Obamacare has done absolutely nothing at all.

Are those the results you are referring to?


Wow, one link from June 2013, and another from August 2012. What year do you think we live in?
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby jj3044 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:01 pm

Symmetry wrote:
patches70 wrote:There were supposedly 30 million uninsured Americans, which is why we supposedly needed Obamacare. The CBO says that there will still be 30 million uninsured Americans, despite Obamacare.

Yes, the results will speak for themselves.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 2518,d.b2U

Or if you prefer, CBS news-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 2518,d.b2U

Plenty of others all say the same thing, let us not forget the stated goal of Obamacare is that all Americans have insurance. To that goal Obamacare has done absolutely nothing at all.

Are those the results you are referring to?


Wow, one link from June 2013, and another from August 2012. What year do you think we live in?

LOL, I clicked on the links and the same exact phrase entered my mind, even before I saw your post!! :lol:

Here is the first link that popped up in google, from THIS week...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/ ... 8920140410
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:19 pm

yes JJ you were correct earlier, that didn't make sense, my bad. I had a couple paragraphs written to go with that but ended up editing them out along with another story.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Symmetry on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:22 pm

Phatscotty wrote:yes JJ you were correct earlier, that didn't make sense, my bad. I had a couple paragraphs written to go with that but ended up editing them out along with another story.


Seems to be a fair bit of nonsense going around by people opposing healthcare. I wouldn't worry- I'm sure you'll have some support.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Night Strike on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:48 pm

jj3044 wrote:I thought scotty was just quiet because we supposedly enrolled more than 7.1 million new participants in insurance, beating expectations.

Yes, in most states premiums for young individuals went up, but for older individuals (and women in general) have gone down. This was anticipated the entire time... not new news.

The government did a terrible job putting together the federal marketplace and shifting deadlines, that I will completely agree with you. However, hopefully the results through the next few years will speak for themselves.


There have been no numbers released saying those 7.1 million people are new enrollees. In fact, with over 5 million having already lost the plans they had, it's all but impossible for all of them to be new enrollees. Then add in the fact that we still don't know how many have actually paid at least their first month's premium, which means they actually enrolled. And again, that's still not people who have actually paid the full cost of their insurance......most of them are getting handouts from the rest of us who also have to pay our own higher premiums (forget about the $2500 decrease Obama promised). Plus, there were approximately 45 million people without health insurance before Obamacare, so what has happened to the 40 million who still don't have insurance? How is a program a success when all those people don't have insurance?

And how is premiums going up for young people a good thing? Why do we steal from young men in order to subsidize old people and women? Isn't there already enough generational theft going on in our society with us already being $17 trillion in debt?
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:04 pm

Night Strike wrote:And how is premiums going up for young people a good thing? Why do we steal from young men in order to subsidize old people and women? Isn't there already enough generational theft going on in our society with us already being $17 trillion in debt?


Healthy people subsidizing sick people? What do we call that again? Oh right, health insurance.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby jj3044 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:56 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:And how is premiums going up for young people a good thing? Why do we steal from young men in order to subsidize old people and women? Isn't there already enough generational theft going on in our society with us already being $17 trillion in debt?


Healthy people subsidizing sick people? What do we call that again? Oh right, health insurance.

I'll add: this is how ALL insurance works, hate to break it to you. individuals more at risk pay higher premiums. It happens in car insurance, home insurance, life insurance, boat insurance, etc.

And Night Strike, you can't even be bothered to read the link I provided (the very first link when I google the latest enrollment figures, by the way - it isn't THAT hard people).

As for the people still uninsured, that will hopefully change through the strengthening of the penalties in the next few years... which is why I said (and I quote) "However, hopefully the results through the next few years will speak for themselves."
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Night Strike on Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:27 pm

jj3044 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:And how is premiums going up for young people a good thing? Why do we steal from young men in order to subsidize old people and women? Isn't there already enough generational theft going on in our society with us already being $17 trillion in debt?


Healthy people subsidizing sick people? What do we call that again? Oh right, health insurance.

I'll add: this is how ALL insurance works, hate to break it to you. individuals more at risk pay higher premiums. It happens in car insurance, home insurance, life insurance, boat insurance, etc.

And Night Strike, you can't even be bothered to read the link I provided (the very first link when I google the latest enrollment figures, by the way - it isn't THAT hard people).

As for the people still uninsured, that will hopefully change through the strengthening of the penalties in the next few years... which is why I said (and I quote) "However, hopefully the results through the next few years will speak for themselves."


If that's the way insurance works, why did Obama cap the difference at 3x the amount? If that's the way insurance works, why did Obama make it illegal for women to be charged more than men? Why did Obama's actions work the exact opposite of the way even you claim insurance is supposed to work?

Yeah, your link says 7.5 million signed up on the exchanges, just like every other source has parroted. Why do we accept the administration's number as gospel when they refuse to provide any other detail? How many people paid? How much are those people who did pay not actually pay their fair share of the price? What makes you believe that the 7.5 million is all new signups when 5 million lost their insurance (that Obama promised could be kept)?

And the number of uninsured is unlikely to decrease over the years because the insurance premium prices are going to continue to skyrocket. Isn't it great to have a system that mandate you buy a product that the system forces to explode in price at the same time? Government destruction of the free market is great!
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:29 pm

Night Strike wrote:Yeah, your link says 7.5 million signed up on the exchanges, just like every other source has parroted. Why do we accept the administration's number as gospel when they refuse to provide any other detail? How many people paid? How much are those people who did pay not actually pay their fair share of the price? What makes you believe that the 7.5 million is all new signups when 5 million lost their insurance (that Obama promised could be kept)?

And the number of uninsured is unlikely to decrease over the years because the insurance premium prices are going to continue to skyrocket. Isn't it great to have a system that mandate you buy a product that the system forces to explode in price at the same time? Government destruction of the free market is great!


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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:37 pm

Night Strike wrote:Yeah, your link says 7.5 million signed up on the exchanges


it actually said;

Republicans have criticized the government for not providing more detailed data on how many people have actually completed enrollment by paying their first month's premium. Individual insurers have estimated that number at 80 percent to 85 percent of their new members.


7,500,000 x .825 = 6,187,500

it would be interesting to know how many of these millions were part of the other millions that lost insurance under the new law. but i doubt that number will ever be revealed, or at least the real number.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby jj3044 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:10 pm

Night Strike wrote:If that's the way insurance works, why did Obama cap the difference at 3x the amount? If that's the way insurance works, why did Obama make it illegal for women to be charged more than men? Why did Obama's actions work the exact opposite of the way even you claim insurance is supposed to work?

Another tenant of insurance in general (and the healthcare law) is that it be affordable. Regarding women being charged more, personally I don't think that being a woman should qualify as having a "medical condition"... but you can certainly make the argument that they should be charged more since women tend to be higher utilizers... but I'm not too interested in getting into a gender debate here.
And the number of uninsured is unlikely to decrease over the years because the insurance premium prices are going to continue to skyrocket. Isn't it great to have a system that mandate you buy a product that the system forces to explode in price at the same time? Government destruction of the free market is great!

I saw a stat the other day (can't remember where though), that trend is expected to only rise about 2% this year, far less than the average 7-9% per year through the last decade. And I still don't see how the law destroyed the free market, since there are many insurers competing for your business on the exchanges. In my state, there was even a new player in the individual market, and Scotty posted an article a few pages back saying that hospital systems are going to start creating "mini HMO's" and essentially be the provider and insurer, further increasing competition.

What does this mean? Will it eventually enroll more people in health insurance? We will have to find out. Will it eventually cost less than the alternative? We will never know. Will it reduce the rate of increase we have seen over the last decade? Perhaps, the jury is still out.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Night Strike on Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:48 am

jj3044 wrote:Another tenant of insurance in general (and the healthcare law) is that it be affordable.


Just because you put "Affordable" in the name doesn't make it so. The actual text and implementation of the law makes that determination. When the law mandates unnecessary coverage and places new taxes on medical providers (and top insurance plans), it's impossible for prices to go down, much less mean it's designed to be affordable. If you wanted it to be affordable, you would pass a law to make health insurance a personal market where people shop for the actual coverage they want, not the coverage that the federal government decides fits for all people.

jj3044 wrote:I saw a stat the other day (can't remember where though), that trend is expected to only rise about 2% this year, far less than the average 7-9% per year through the last decade. And I still don't see how the law destroyed the free market, since there are many insurers competing for your business on the exchanges. In my state, there was even a new player in the individual market, and Scotty posted an article a few pages back saying that hospital systems are going to start creating "mini HMO's" and essentially be the provider and insurer, further increasing competition.

What does this mean? Will it eventually enroll more people in health insurance? We will have to find out. Will it eventually cost less than the alternative? We will never know. Will it reduce the rate of increase we have seen over the last decade? Perhaps, the jury is still out.


7-9% per year over the last decade, yet BBS's chart showed most states experienced a 50% or more increase just since Obamacare passed? 2% increases in the future will never happen based on that. And if the law fosters competition, why are many areas of the country only covered by 1 servicer on the exchange, with even more plans cutting off specialty providers like cancer treatment centers? Obamacare has already led to cuts in coverage in actual coverage in order to pay for Obamacare mandated coverage like $9 birth control pills along with taxes on insurance plans.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:10 am

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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:44 pm

Oregon is set to become the first state to drop its ObamaCare exchange and transition into the system managed by the federal government.

The decision follows months of severe technical issues that have made Oregon's marketplace one of the worst in the country.

About $130 million has been spent on Cover Oregon, but it is the only ObamaCare enrollment system that won't let registrants buy coverage and qualify for tax credits in one sitting.
It had not enrolled a single person online as of early March, and remains mired in glitches almost seven months after a rocky launch.

Alex Pettit, the state's chief information officer, recommended to an advisory board Thursday that the state hand the reins to the federal government.

Members of the panel appeared to agree, The Oregonian newspaper reported. The board will meet again on Friday morning to further discuss the issue, and perhaps hold a vote.

Pettit will reportedly travel to Washington, D.C. next week to pursue the transition with federal health officials.

Republicans pointed to the shift as evidence of problems with the Affordable Care Act.

“Cover Oregon wasted over $200 million and is the poster child for what’s wrong with ObamaCare’s state exchanges," said Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus in a statement.

Priebus slammed Gov. John Kitzhaber (D-Ore.) and Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.), both up for reelection, as "responsible" for the site's inception.

The Obama administration has urged Oregon and other states with dysfunctional exchanges to integrate them with HealthCare.gov.

If federal health officials agree to the terms, Oregon will join the 34 states that currently plan to rely on HealthCare.gov as their primary ObamaCare enrollment portal next year. The next sign-up period begins in November.

Officials with Covered Oregon confirmed the recommendation from Pettit and released a draft of the his Powerpoint presentation to the committee.

Fixing the site would cost $78 million compared with $4 to 6 million to house the system within HealthCare.gov, the slides said.

The decision is a significant shift for an exchange that was expected to run well.

Oregon is mostly run by Democratic supporters of the healthcare law and known for its innovations in healthcare policy, signs that initially boded well for its ObamaCare enrollment system.

But the website has become an embarrassment for the state, and improving it before the next enrollment period would have been challenging and expensive.

In Congress, requests from Democrats and Republicans have triggered a federal investigation of the broken system.

The Government Accountability Office (GAO) agreed last month to probe what happened to the $304 million in federal grants provided to Oregon to build its website.

Two sets of lawmakers had requested the study: Sens. Merkley and Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) in one letter, and four Republican members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee in another.

The agency said it would combine the investigation with a "broader study planned to examine states' health exchanges websites."

"In these unique circumstances GAO will conduct one body of work but issue multiple products," a letter to Merkley stated.

Republican members have raised hopes that some of the federal grant money given to Oregon contractors could be returned.

"The catastrophic breakdown of Cover Oregon is unacceptable, and taxpayers deserve accountability," the GOP lawmakers, led by Rep. Greg Walden (R-Ore.), wrote to the GAO.

State officials have blamed the contractor primarily responsible for the website, Oracle. The exchange was reportedly pursuing Deloitte as a replacement earlier this month.

Many top officials have also resigned, some as recently as this week.

“[Cover Oregon] is the worst financial failure in information technology in state history-and it was completely avoidable. Today's admission of failure underscores the need to stop the waste and get the truth,” Walden said in a statement Thursday.

“How did this happen? Who was in charge? That's why I've sought and secured a federal investigation into Cover Oregon. Taxpayers deserve answers and demand accountability."




Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/he ... z2zqIiMywV
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby jj3044 on Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:50 pm

Everyone involved with building the site in Oregon should probably be fired. That's not an indication on the law, but an indication of the ineptitude of the people running that exchange.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:14 am

jj3044 wrote:Everyone involved with building the site in Oregon should probably be fired. That's not an indication on the law, but an indication of the ineptitude of the people running that exchange.


They were a lot like us in Minnesota. They had a lot of support for Obamacare, and a lot of money, and both wanted to be the shining example of something working that they truly believed in. My state held back no expense. Governor Dayton is ALL about Obamacare. Needless to say we had a lot of problems too, our biggest one is the state website builders failed to even make a portal for insurance companies to access. We aren't as bad a Oregon, but we are NOWHERE near what we thought we would have.

and btw, they are claiming to have 7 million sign-ups? sorry if someone addressed this already, but #1, aren't about 4 million of those people who signed up through Obamacare only to be put in other government programs? That's not a bad thing or nothin, but it's not a signup for Obamacare, and #2, as was pointed out here many times over the last year, they needed 7 million young and healthy people to sign up, and they got roughly 600,000.

The whole thing is a mess. For the trillions that will be spent/have already spent we really could have just bought everyone a policy for the next few years. But that wouldn't give the government a bunch of new power or make the government bigger and bigger over the next decade or let the government have all the control, now would it.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 20, 2014 1:06 am

Information received just today, from the administration of transparency, so that we are just now knowing what was really going on in early October.

Judicial Watch on Monday announced it has a copy of a report from the Obama administration that shows there were just two enrollments in Obamacare after the first day of operation on October 1.

The government watchdog group said a senior official at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services sent an email to staff with a subject line celebrating “2 enrollments!”


President Barack Obama’s administration tried to dodge questions about Obamacare enrollment numbers. A confidential report found by Judicial Watch says there were just two enrollees after the first day. (AP Photo)
The report confirms GOP suspicions that very few people were signing up for Obamacare in the early days. In the early days and weeks of implementation of the healthcare law, administration officials dodged questions about how many people had signed up for health insurance premiums.

According to the report obtained by Judicial Watch, there were just 30,512 enrollments by the end of October.

The report says on October 2, there were 70,000 page views, but only 5,000 unique visitors — the large number of page views was the result of people hitting “refresh” while on the site.

Judicial Watch noted that in mid-April, the administration announced 8 million enrollees.

“That figure, however, may be substantially over-inflated,” the group said in a statement Monday. “According to testimony in May by the America’s Health Insurance Plans association before the House Commerce Committee Subcommittee on Oversight, ‘Because of the challenges that surfaced with the launch of the Exchanges in October 2013, some consumers were advised to create a new account and enroll again. As a result, insurers have many duplicate enrollments in their system for which they never received any payment.’ ”

Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton said his group was able to get information that even congressional committees were not able to get.

“The Obama administration tried to cover this up, Congress failed to follow through, but we managed to get the truth…” he said. “Imagine what would have happened to Obamacare if the American people knew only one person was able to enroll on its first day? What other Obamacare failures is President Obama hiding?”

The group obtained the report through a Freedom of Information Act request.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Phatscotty on Sat May 24, 2014 8:14 pm

Clear, coherent, concise and cognizant argument of opposition against Obamacare

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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Night Strike on Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:50 pm

Just as we suspected.....as soon as the feds took over the health care industry, they would proceed to base every other illegal executive action on doing so to better people's health. That's their justification for their massive end-run around Congress to enact cap-and-trade and other environmental policies that Congress specifically voted against. Great time to destroy the country! Told you so!
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:56 pm

We aren't even able to take care of our Vets properly, who are without a doubt the most deserving. Tell us again how you guys think Obamacare is going to be able to handle the rest of the 290,000,000? Oh well, at least it's permanent.

Good intentions, poorly thought out (if thought about at all) are the cause of most of the world's evil.

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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:37 pm

Obamacare - "We can't afford that!"

A town hall for liberal activists featuring two Democratic presidential candidates was interrupted by dozens of demonstrators on Saturday who shouted down the contenders and demanded they address criminal justice issues and police brutality.

Tia Oso of the Black Alliance for Just Immigration, who represented the demonstrators, climbed onto the stage, secured a microphone, and delivered a speech while O'Malley looked on.

When Sanders cited the Affordable Care Act as a law he supported that helped people of color by making health insurance more accessible, one man shouted, "we can't afford that!"

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics/ ... index.html
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