ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:17 pm

Lootifer wrote:Question: what does frer market healthcare look like? (High level question)


I don't know. Health care, in general, has never experienced the free market, not in my lifetime. My grandpa tells me stories though, about my 5 other aunts and uncles.

They just paid the doctor the money when they needed the doctor.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Lootifer on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:06 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Question: what does frer market healthcare look like? (High level question)


I don't know. Health care, in general, has never experienced the free market, not in my lifetime. My grandpa tells me stories though, about my 5 other aunts and uncles.

They just paid the doctor the money when they needed the doctor.

The real cost of healthcare has risen significantly with time, even in a single generation (dont confuse this with the price, price is what the butchered distorted system pops out - the $8000/p.a. or whatever number gets thrown around).

This is because healthcare has become far more complex and requires more raw materials (doctors/nurses work-hours, doctors/nurses training time, more cost-intensive equipment and more cost-intensive medicine). This is ok because the results are far better, we now live longer healthier lives.

In your Grandads time you could just pay the doctor for your annual cold and occasional spained ankle; however if you tore the miniscus in you knee, sorry bucko, you were given a crutch and declared "lame". Now we dont have to put up with that, we can get surgery and fix that up; however the real cost of the fix isnt cheap, and likely to be beyond the means of 90% of the population (the surgery I had at the beginning of the year would have been in the tens of thousands of dollars order of magnitude) - hell likely even more; not many have a spare couple of thousand to spend on a treatment which in the old days we may have just put up with for the rest of our lives.

Thats where the insurance and socialised models have evolved from. Healthcare isnt cheap; however not everyone needs it. Apart from the elderly not everyone will need a horribly expensive major surgery during their normal year to year life. So insurance is just a form of socialisation under the guise of a "free market" tag - as Doom says, the real free market would be user pays.

Now in reality the true free market option would almost be unanimously rejected by the population. Only the true Libatarian stalwarts like BBS would fight for it;

The moderate libatarians would likely offer some kind of coupon type deal (I think Friedmans' education policy is one such example, though cant remember off the top of my head - not sure if it would work in Healthcare - education is cheap in comparison).
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby kentington on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:15 pm

I don't know what system would work. All I know is that if I had to pay for the treatments of the kidney stone out of pocket, then I would have need to just die instead. It wasn't coming out on its own.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:24 pm

kentington wrote:I don't know what system would work. All I know is that if I had to pay for the treatments of the kidney stone out of pocket, then I would have need to just die instead. It wasn't coming out on its own.

Kentington, you could have always gone to a nice low-cost private surgeon.

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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:07 pm

kentington wrote:I don't know what system would work. All I know is that if I had to pay for the treatments of the kidney stone out of pocket, then I would have need to just die instead. It wasn't coming out on its own.


The prices are only so high because of market manipulation.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:12 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
kentington wrote:I don't know what system would work. All I know is that if I had to pay for the treatments of the kidney stone out of pocket, then I would have need to just die instead. It wasn't coming out on its own.

Kentington, you could have always gone to a nice low-cost private surgeon.

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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Night Strike on Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:24 pm

Symmetry wrote:Stuff that NS may have missed- the doctor is 67 years old, so well past retirement, I doubt that healthcare reform is why he's shutting down.

But then again, we have the patient addicted to prescription strength cough syrup to think about:

"Oh, I was shocked. I guess it's due to this Obama healthcare deal," says Jean Borgmeyer, a patient of nearly 30 years.

"Unfortunately, it's sad every day, because we get reminded, dealing with the patients," Deckard says.

"Now, I have to find a doctor, and I'll never find another one like him that you can call and get a prescription for cough syrup," says Borgmeyer.


Hmm. This sounds a bit dodgy to me.


Stuff that Symmetry did miss - the primary doctor had a younger colleague who probably could have kept on the private practice and continued serving many of the primary doctor's patients after he retired if the massive regulations hadn't been dictated from above.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Lootifer on Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:42 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
kentington wrote:I don't know what system would work. All I know is that if I had to pay for the treatments of the kidney stone out of pocket, then I would have need to just die instead. It wasn't coming out on its own.


The prices are only so high because of market manipulation.

That's on partly true. And a small part at that.

The major reason removing a kidney stone costs a lot is because you need to pay for (numbers are illustrative only), say, 4 hours of two exceptionally trained individuals, 4 hours usage rental of incredibly specialised equipment, a vertible army of support staff and a cache of medical supplies and drugs that would make hunter s proud.

Yes there is some significant distortion going on in all healthcare systems around the world. But that's only a fraction of the end user costs.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:09 pm

Lootifer wrote:Question: what does frer market healthcare look like? (High level question)


A free market healthcare system, for me, is one in which health insurance companies exist sort of like tornado insurance companies - get it if you want, but if you don't, you should be able to pay for the storm damage or risk no storm coming.

All kidding aside, I think I would like to see a situation where medical doctors practice without many restrictions imposed by health insurance companies (e.g. if my head hurts and I want to see a headache specialist, I have to go to three different doctors). I would like to see a situation where charitable hospitals are the norm. Basically, I want to go back to the healthcare economic model of the early 20th century. I go to the doctor, I pay him $100 or whatever I feel like paying him, he checks me out, and sends me on my way. Later that day, he goes to Mary Mother of Mercy Hospital (or Beth Israel if that's your thing) and checks out some people who can't afford to pay him $100.

And the reason that details are not available for this kind of plan is that it will never happen. There are too many people invested in our current system: health insurance companies, for-profit hospitals, non-profit hospitals, doctors, nurses, malpractice insurance, attorneys, etc.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby jj3044 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:57 pm

thegreekdog wrote:A free market healthcare system, for me, is one in which health insurance companies exist sort of like tornado insurance companies - get it if you want, but if you don't, you should be able to pay for the storm damage or risk no storm coming.

The problem with this is that the Hippocratic Oath that the doctors pledge won't allow them to just walk-on-by someone who needs help. We would end up worse off because no one would pay, because the doctors would treat the patients simply because they have a conscience.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:59 pm

jj3044 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:A free market healthcare system, for me, is one in which health insurance companies exist sort of like tornado insurance companies - get it if you want, but if you don't, you should be able to pay for the storm damage or risk no storm coming.

The problem with this is that the Hippocratic Oath that the doctors pledge won't allow them to just walk-on-by someone who needs help. We would end up worse off because no one would pay, because the doctors would treat the patients simply because they have a conscience.


Why would we end up worse off?

And yes, the Hippocratic oath is very important in my free market system.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:57 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Stuff that NS may have missed- the doctor is 67 years old, so well past retirement, I doubt that healthcare reform is why he's shutting down.

But then again, we have the patient addicted to prescription strength cough syrup to think about:

"Oh, I was shocked. I guess it's due to this Obama healthcare deal," says Jean Borgmeyer, a patient of nearly 30 years.

"Unfortunately, it's sad every day, because we get reminded, dealing with the patients," Deckard says.

"Now, I have to find a doctor, and I'll never find another one like him that you can call and get a prescription for cough syrup," says Borgmeyer.


Hmm. This sounds a bit dodgy to me.


Stuff that Symmetry did miss - the primary doctor had a younger colleague who probably could have kept on the private practice and continued serving many of the primary doctor's patients after he retired if the massive regulations hadn't been dictated from above.


I didn't miss that part, it seemed kind of wishful thinking after the fact that the dude was past retirement and clearly dishing out cough syrup to addicts.65

I hope that the younger colleague sets up his own, junkie free, business.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:14 pm

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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby kentington on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:19 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
kentington wrote:I don't know what system would work. All I know is that if I had to pay for the treatments of the kidney stone out of pocket, then I would have need to just die instead. It wasn't coming out on its own.

Kentington, you could have always gone to a nice low-cost private surgeon.

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Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby kentington on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:25 pm

Lootifer wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
kentington wrote:I don't know what system would work. All I know is that if I had to pay for the treatments of the kidney stone out of pocket, then I would have need to just die instead. It wasn't coming out on its own.


The prices are only so high because of market manipulation.

That's on partly true. And a small part at that.

The major reason removing a kidney stone costs a lot is because you need to pay for (numbers are illustrative only), say, 4 hours of two exceptionally trained individuals, 4 hours usage rental of incredibly specialised equipment, a vertible army of support staff and a cache of medical supplies and drugs that would make hunter s proud.

Yes there is some significant distortion going on in all healthcare systems around the world. But that's only a fraction of the end user costs.


You are right. Only there were four people who were trained in there with me. Two hospital visits and one out patient surgery building visit. I went in to the hospital and found out I had an 8mm kidney stone. They did blood work, used countless one use only items. Ultrasound, CAT scan. Had a urologist come in from his other office. He put me under and put a stent in. (Let me tell you that is one of the worst things). Then a couple of weeks later, back to the hospital for Lithotripsy, where they shoot a bunch of sound waves on your kidney and pray it doesn't do long term damage. Then you pass all of the little stones and go back to remove the stent. In my opinion this should be a costly endeavor. I would feel really bad if I only had to pay $5 for a guy to put me under and stick a tube in me and tie knots in it.
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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